Americans now favor Obamacare 50-35% !!!!

[B_VinylBoy]

As to why the US doesn't have socialized medical in this day and age. I think there is just too much money to be made by the powerful players. It could be done if there was a will for it. There are so many social models in the world now, that they should be able to design a very good and efficient and fair public system by doing an analysis of what works, what doesn't and applying the lessons learned by other countries to their own local situation. I think a mixed system could be designed that would address most of the problems they currently have.

But politics in the USA now only happens through a very narrow left-right lens. Actually, a centre-right lens... The whole public discourse is conducted around this Democrat/Republican quest for power and service to their corporate masters. Masters who are for the most part the same guys, who really only want what's best for their short-term bottom line. Not what is in their or the public's best long term interest.

So the public gets fed a line about "free markets", "socialism" and the evils of "big government". Yet all the while, those same guys are the ones who don't mind "big government" when it comes to defense spending, interstate highways, subsidies to airlines and railroads, spending on the power grid, bailing out banks and the failed auto industry. The list is long of companies that benefit from govt contracts and the profits are huge. But when it comes to something that might give a tangible benefit to the taxpayers, the corporate stooges in Congress and the media start running around with their hair on fire screaming about death panels, socialism, "Obamacare" and the fatal threat this poses to the American Way of Life.

And the poorly educated, badly informed, but well entertained American public believes the lies they are told. That is if they stop "consuming" long enough to look up from their bowl of Coco Puffs and check out a news channel.

Nailed it right on the head.

 

[maxcok]

Nailed it right on the head.

^ Ditto, with further exposition and clarification:

And the poorly educated, badly informed, but well entertained American public believes the lies they are told. That is if they stop "consuming" long enough to look up from their bowl of Coco Puffs and check out a news channel.

If they do bother to look up from their Coco Puffs, more than likely the "news" they see will be the same phony Punch and Judy show being staged by the corporate media - infotainment designed to keep them tuned in long enough to sell them more crap - all the crap that is produced by the same corporate cabal that owns the major media and pulls the political puppet strings.

The "news" presented by the mainstream media is just another product, more crap being sold to an ignorant populace. Consumption accounts for 70% of the US economy, it's the mission of our government to keep us spending, and it's the mission of big business to suck every dime they can out of the American consumer for short-term profit - ethics and consequences be damned. Consumers play right into the game, buying truckloads of mostly disposable crap they don't need, and are therefore complicit in their own corporate servitude.

. . . when it comes to something that might give a tangible benefit to the taxpayers, the corporate stooges in Congress and the media start running around with their hair on fire screaming about death panels, socialism, "Obamacare" and the fatal threat this poses to the American Way of Life.

Overturning nearly a hundred years of campaign financing law in January of this year, laws which were already inadequate, the corporate neocons of the Supreme Court led by Bush appointed Chief Neocon Justice Roberts have officially elevated corporations over people and sealed our fate. Corporations now have carte blanche to spend unlimited amounts of cash supporting candidates, effectively buying elections. Without even disclosure requirements, special interests including corporate interests, can legally promote candidates and issues in secret. With the outrageous expense of running campaigns, virtually no one will be elected to Congress or higher office who is not beholden to corporate interests, and legislation will be crafted to serve those interests, not the people, as was ultimately done with the Healthcare bill.

The feeble Campaign Finance Reform bill offered by Democrats was naturally blocked by Republicans in the Senate. The midterm elections coming in November will only hasten our descent into Hell, as if we weren't already speeding there fast enough. This ironically is the real threat to "the American Way of Life" politicians falsely allude to, and the FUNDAMENTAL issue before us as citizens. All other issues are tangential, and unless we fix this, we are doomed. Naturally it's not addressed in the corporate owned media, who coincidentally get to bank the billions spent on political ads, so of course it barely registers at all with the citizen/consumers.

If anybody has any good suggestions how to fight these dragons, I'd love to hear them. I just find the whole equation hopelessly, unbearably depressing.

 

[FuzzyKen]

At some point like it or not we are going to be forced to go to a single pay health care system. In politics in some way I am echoing the opinions of many others tired of the present system. Because I have not talked to each and every citizen of Canada, France or the U.K. I cannot state with absolute certain knowledge that their systems are perfect.

I however have many friends in and around London and Glasgow. In addition I have friends in Toronto and Paris. I am in regular communication with these people via e-mail and I have posed many questions to individuals personally experiencing the systems which are supposed to be so "flawed" because they are "Government" run.

None of these individuals seem to be complaining of the delays and none of them are rushing to the United States to get care. Several of these individuals are dealing with HIV and it appears that all of them are receiving care that is at least as good if not better than the best care taking place with friends in the United States with the same condition. It is indeed possible that there are individuals having problems, but again I am not encountering them.

What we have here currently is a number of major corporations deathly afraid of losing billions of dollars.

Corporations historically have proven themselves excellent at the dissemination of "disinformation" and "misinformation" which is used to mislead many individuals in order to preserve their own wealth.

They are in business to make billions of dollars not to help anybody.

Take an honest look at medicine:

Let's assume that we had a "cure" for the common "cold" or "rhinovirus". Do you realize how many billions of dollars would be lost in the sales of cough and cold products of limited value? That one thing alone should tell you that there are no cures for anything because nobody will ever look.

The idea is to create "chronic" but "manageable" conditions which will create the most profits for pharmaceutical corporations.

Most of those sitting in high places with the FDA came to the FDA from pharmaceutical giants. This information is easy to find on the internet. The only time the FDA will act in any manner that is NOT in the best interest of the Corporations they represent is when they absolutely have to. The proof is the many medications which are now subjects of class action litigation. Accutane is but one of many. There are drugs out there designed to supposedly treat common placque psoriasis and rhumetoid arthritis that have the side effects of causing non-hodgkins lymphoma cancer. Neither rhumetoid arthritis nor placque psoriasis are fatal conditions, bit non-hodgkins lymphoma certainly is.

I still picture this as this scene:

Setting: "A funeral somewhere in the United States.

"Isn't it terrible, she died such a horrible death."
"Yes, her family lost everything trying to treat the cancer."
"They used chemotherapy, they used radiation, they used everything."
"Such a terrible shame, she suffered horribly at the end."
"But doesn't her skin look nice?"

It will take more than a decade to work through the bugs in the proposed health care plan. In the meanwhile those who stand to lose money will lie, they will misrepresent, they will make up false information, they will do anything to prevent the American People from having access to decent health care as long as they the same Corporations are not able to suck every nickel and dime from that care.

I would not hesitate to agree that what sits there right now is a "joke", but it was the only thing that those trying to begin reform could get through. It is not a health care system at all, it is a legal precedent on which a health care system can be re-designed over time. Right now it is worthless and unworkable and there is no doubt of that. It will remain but implementation of all or part of it will in the end be delayed until it actually is worth something.

There is not one argument that has been made against the plan that is not a complete verbal "re-run" of the arguments against care for the elderly in the 1960's. It was a program that was never going to help anybody and it was called "Medicare".

Now, all that think that "Medicare" is worthless need to go to some individual who receives benefits from it and tell them that it is worthless and that they would be better off paying retail for the medical services that are covered under this "worthless" program. You will leave with your head in your hands and as all of you know good or bad "Medicare" is as programs go a "sacred cow" to many voters of retirement age.

The United States has some of the best trained medical professionals, the best of equipment for diagnostics, the best of minds in research, and some of the world's most advanced treatments. All sounds good, but none of that means anything if nobody can afford it and you have no way to pay for it.

It is very easy to get on a soap box if you have never needed major medical care.

People are not supporting "Obamacare" they are in fact beginning to realize that change must happen. It started changing for the worse when Edgar Kaiser made good friends with Richard M. Nixon in 1971. That was when your care really started to go downhill and it was Edgar Kaiser and his Corporation (Kaiser Permanente) that really engineered many of the policies that spread throughout the rest of the industry and destroyed your health care.

All we can do is to embrace change and make things better. It is up to all of us to make the new system work and work towards improving it rather than wasting our time with meaningless diatribes on our soapboxes that will never be heard.

 

[maxcok]

wiser heads are in the know here...

Whaa . . . ? LMFAO!

 

[conclave27]

I really doubt it. I am not a part of the teaparty movement, nor a democrat, and dislike the current individual in office. There is no way with such high unemployment that we should have national healthcare!

Personally I do not trust doctors or hospitals, and if it is my time to check out so be it. Anything else I pay out of my pocket.

At this point with the mandatory healthcare, I would have been slapped with a fine and threatened to be put in prison!! Like someone said in an other post...

how can we trust the government with so many failures elsewhere??? The US doesn't recognize me as a full citizen and denies me marriage currently!

 

[D_stryhtfg]

God bless our courageous president who not only speaks well but takes appropriate action despite corporate liars and their selfish whores in congress and the media.

What president is that?

Oh, and here is a link you may like:

Health Care Law - Rasmussen Reports

I don't even have health insurance and think the law is utter sh*t...not to mention unconstitutional.

 

[Industrialsize]

What president is that?

Oh, and here is a link you may like:

Health Care Law - Rasmussen Reports

I don't even have health insurance and think the law is utter sh*t...not to mention unconstitutional.

So who will pay for your medical care should you be hit by a car?

 

[B_VinylBoy]

What president is that?

Oh, and here is a link you may like:

Health Care Law - Rasmussen Reports

I don't even have health insurance and think the law is utter sh*t...not to mention unconstitutional.

So who will pay for your medical care should you be hit by a car?

In his world, nobody.
That way he can "work hard" and pay for his own bills, regardless of how disabled he may become so he can realize just how difficult living w/o Health Insurance can be.

No hospitals, no doctors visits, no ambulances... in fact, nobody with any medical knowledge should even blink at him unless he has the $$$. Hey, why don't we even make an exception to the law and deny him care even if it is an emergency too? That way if he needs stitches to prevent losing lots of blood or needs to have a few bones in his body rejoined he doesn't get that either. Nope... pay that bill FIRST, then you'll get the treatment. That's exactly the kind of America he wants.

Ironically, if he was the first person to be put in a life threatening situation, he would be the FIRST to whine and cry for help. Just like most people who claim to be against abortion... just let it be their daughter getting knocked up by someone they don't approve of. Therein lies the hypocrisy of this so-called ideology.

 

[B_Marius567]

you are not getting obamacare for Free you have to pay for it!!!!

 

[maxcok]

you are not getting obamacare for Free you have to pay for it!!!!

Please explain the maths. :smile:

 

[Bbucko]

you are not getting obamacare for Free you have to pay for it!!!!

No health care is "free", obviously: doctors, nurses and hospitals do not work for nothing. There's not a soul here who believes that health care reform is offering anyone a free ride.

I agree with Max: show us your maths.

 

[FuzzyKen]

Right now I am working with several MD's to start up medical clinics in the United States that will offer low cost medical care. Initially we are looking at some specialty clinics dealing with male impotency issues, but we are looking also long term at branching out into the standard stuff covered by most GP's as well.

When you are contemplating investing your money in something you damn well better do your homework.

I have friends in several other foreign countries employed in the health care field. I have been talking to these men on a regular basis with regards as to how they make money under what we are referring to as a "single pay plan".

As time goes on I am beginning to be able to see an outline here of how this really could work.

Gentlemen, if this is done correctly, people in the field of medicine will make not less but more simply because it in fact has the potential to greatly reduce practice overhead.

Currently the average medical practice must employ multiple individuals to deal with insurance billing. In order to hang on to their money Insurance Companies re-write these books on a regular basis in order to increase the number of billing errors and in order to hang on to their money (well, really it's your money).

If I were dealing with medical office practices billing to a single pay source, based on what I am seeing so far, I could standardize everything and one person could do the work that it would currently take six to do. In addition, single pay systems also simplify and reduce costs by using secured data networks to transmit patient care and billing data to the entity paying the bills. This means that one writes the United States Postal Service and other snail paced entities out of the equation. Now, I am still learning and hope to spend some time in a few places personally in study of how these countries are making this work.

What we have right now is absolute "junk" and that is a known even by those who struggled to get this piece of garbage plan through. Medicare was exactly the same debacle when it started out as well. If politicians would quit raiding the coffers of medicare diverting money to other things, medicare would be solvent. It is financial mismanagement on the part of many politicians from both parties who have caused this because they have taken money and removed it from where it was supposed to go.

Canada, France and England all have Nationalized health care programs. I have heard of a few not happy, but, based on my personal experiences with crooked insurance providers and HMO's denying care completely and stalling treatment even on cancer for long time periods, I would take what they have without question over what we have right now.

It is lousy and going to create some headaches in the beginning, but, it is a beginning of a new direction and that is what counts.

Remember one thing. We are going to get change and this is guaranteed. If we leave the clean-up to private industry the ONLY ones who will have any care at all will be those who are healthy and anyone needing care will be dropped in order to maintain a profit and loss statement.

The mess we have right now started in the friendship between Richard Milhouse Nixon and Edgar Kaiser of Kaiser Permanente. It was Edgar Kaiser who started to sew the seeds with politicians making health care cuts sound like blessings. He bamboozled Nixon into thinking it was a good idea. That started the erosion into what we have now.

 

[vince]

The mess we have right now started in the friendship between Richard Milhouse Nixon and Edgar Kaiser of Kaiser Permanente. It was Edgar Kaiser who started to sew the seeds with politicians making health care cuts sound like blessings. He bamboozled Nixon into thinking it was a good idea. That started the erosion into what we have now.

Interesting. I think that is the same Kaiser as in the Kaiser Family Foundation poll that was quoted in the beginning of this thread. They claim to be not associated with Kaiser Permanente or Kaiser Industries. What is the role of the Kaiser Family in American healthcare?

btw- the numbers dropped in August from a 50 percent favorability rating in July to 43 percent, while 45 percent of the public reported unfavorable views.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

Speaking of Obamacare...
Some of the very political enemies of the health care reform bill who claim it's bad for America and want to repeal it, are now actually campaigning on it. In their supposed "Pledge To America" (which was a document created by a well known lobbyist for Phizer), several provisions that are already included in the health care reform bill by the Democrats are now pledges the GOP are trying to make to the public such as ensuring coverage for people with pre-existing conditions, eliminating annual spending caps and purchasing plans across state lines. They still want to get rid of the Democratic bill, but then place their own in place (with identical Democratic provisions) so they can get credit for it. Wow. Divisive politics being played on a level that is beyond ridiculous. And sadly, their fan base will fall for it. Hook, line and sinker.

This is at the same time as other members of the GOP are trying to twist Michelle Obama's message about consuming healthier foods to make it sounds as if the government wants to tell every person what they can and cannot eat. Such hypocrites.

 

[Bbucko]

Interesting. I think that is the same Kaiser as in the Kaiser Family Foundation poll that was quoted in the beginning of this thread. They claim to be not associated with Kaiser Permanente or Kaiser Industries. What is the role of the Kaiser Family in American healthcare?

btw- the numbers dropped in August from a 50 percent favorability rating in July to 43 percent, while 45 percent of the public reported unfavorable views.

Technically it's full name is The Henry J Kaiser Family Foundation. From their website:

Who We Are
A leader in health policy and communications, the Kaiser Family Foundation is a non-profit, private operating foundation focusing on the major health care issues facing the U.S., as well as the U.S. role in global health policy. Unlike grant-making foundations, Kaiser develops and runs its own research and communications programs, sometimes in partnership with other non-profit research organizations or major media companies.


We serve as a non-partisan source of facts, information, and analysis for policymakers, the media, the health care community, and the public. Our product is information, always provided free of charge — from the most sophisticated policy research, to basic facts and numbers, to information young people can use to improve their health or elderly people can use to understand their Medicare benefits.


The Kaiser Family Foundation is not associated with Kaiser Permanente or Kaiser Industries.

During my most recent day gig, the KFF was the go-to spot for factually-correct and unbiased reporting of everything concerned with health care, disability and HIV/AIDS in the US. No one else even comes close. As part of that job not only involved research but gave me the chance to enjoy seeing some of my writing published and recognized within the HIV/AIDS community as having genuine merit. The topics were assigned by my boss, but the research, documentation and actual writing were solely my responsibility. I could never have even begun work without the KFF.

According to his Wikipedia page:

Henry John Kaiser (May 9, 1882 – August 24, 1967) was an American industrialist who became known as the father of modern American shipbuilding. He established the Kaiser Shipyard which built Liberty ships during World War II, after which he formed Kaiser Aluminum and Kaiser Steel. Kaiser organized Kaiser Permanente health care for his workers and their families. He led Kaiser-Frazer followed by Kaiser Motors, automobile companies known for the safety of their designs. Kaiser was involved in large construction projects such as civic centers and dams, and invested in real estate. With his acquired wealth, he initiated the Kaiser Family Foundation, a charitable organization.

Edgar Kaiser's Wikipedia page is much smaller:

Edgar F. Kaiser, Jr is a Canadian financier and a former owner of the Denver Broncos American football team.[1] He is the grandson of shipbuilding industrialist Henry J. Kaiser.

The extent to which a dynastic thing within the Kaiser family as regards Kaiser Permanente is open too debate, I guess. Obviously "financier" is pretty nebulous as far as descriptions go, and obviously Kaiser Permanente is key to maintaining the immense wealth of the Kaiser family, as the car company and ship-building activities seem to belong to history now. The current CEO of KP is someone named George C Halvorson, who has no Wikipedia page, though KP's press releases mention his having met with Obama in 2009 to discuss HCR:

Today, Kaiser Permanente Chairman and CEO George Halvorson, and other private sector health care leaders met with President Obama to discuss the need for containing rising health care costs. The coalition, which includes Service Employees International Union, America's Health Insurance Plans, American Hospital Association, American Medical Association, Advanced Medical Technology Association, and Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America committed to cutting health care costs by $2 trillion over the next 10 years.

...

Mr. Halvorson said, "There is unprecedented momentum for health care reform, with a real chance of making care better, more accessible and more affordable. Collaboration and accountability are central to this effort and we believe that the most effective reforms will control spending by providing better care for all Americans."

His bio is pretty mute as regards his background.

 

[cdunstan1]

Right now I am working with several MD's to start up medical clinics in the United States that will offer low cost medical care. Initially we are looking at some specialty clinics dealing with male impotency issues, but we are looking also long term at branching out into the standard stuff covered by most GP's as well.

When you are contemplating investing your money in something you damn well better do your homework.

I have friends in several other foreign countries employed in the health care field. I have been talking to these men on a regular basis with regards as to how they make money under what we are referring to as a "single pay plan".

As time goes on I am beginning to be able to see an outline here of how this really could work.

Gentlemen, if this is done correctly, people in the field of medicine will make not less but more simply because it in fact has the potential to greatly reduce practice overhead.

Currently the average medical practice must employ multiple individuals to deal with insurance billing. In order to hang on to their money Insurance Companies re-write these books on a regular basis in order to increase the number of billing errors and in order to hang on to their money (well, really it's your money).

If I were dealing with medical office practices billing to a single pay source, based on what I am seeing so far, I could standardize everything and one person could do the work that it would currently take six to do. In addition, single pay systems also simplify and reduce costs by using secured data networks to transmit patient care and billing data to the entity paying the bills. This means that one writes the United States Postal Service and other snail paced entities out of the equation. Now, I am still learning and hope to spend some time in a few places personally in study of how these countries are making this work.

What we have right now is absolute "junk" and that is a known even by those who struggled to get this piece of garbage plan through. Medicare was exactly the same debacle when it started out as well. If politicians would quit raiding the coffers of medicare diverting money to other things, medicare would be solvent. It is financial mismanagement on the part of many politicians from both parties who have caused this because they have taken money and removed it from where it was supposed to go.

Canada, France and England all have Nationalized health care programs. I have heard of a few not happy, but, based on my personal experiences with crooked insurance providers and HMO's denying care completely and stalling treatment even on cancer for long time periods, I would take what they have without question over what we have right now.

It is lousy and going to create some headaches in the beginning, but, it is a beginning of a new direction and that is what counts.

Remember one thing. We are going to get change and this is guaranteed. If we leave the clean-up to private industry the ONLY ones who will have any care at all will be those who are healthy and anyone needing care will be dropped in order to maintain a profit and loss statement.

The mess we have right now started in the friendship between Richard Milhouse Nixon and Edgar Kaiser of Kaiser Permanente. It was Edgar Kaiser who started to sew the seeds with politicians making health care cuts sound like blessings. He bamboozled Nixon into thinking it was a good idea. That started the erosion into what we have now.

Kudos for a very well thought out and reasonable post. While I disagree with some of the statments on Medicare and Nixon, I have to commend you for not trying to :argue: , but instead making a logical case. :You_Rock_Emoticon:

 

[FuzzyKen]

Now with Regards to "Which Kaiser is Which":

As was always Whitehouse Policy, during the Nixon Administration all Presidential Conversations were taped. Unlike the missing tapes with Watergate, the tapes of the conversations between Kaiser and Nixon still exist and are a matter of public record.

One of the things that always happens is that families with huge political power and influence form various foundations to channel money into causes which benefit them, but, are not directly tied to them. This is the manner in which they cover up political contributions and feign complete and total innocence.

Long known for their lack of truth and disclosure is Kaiser-Permanente. Belong to Kaiser and sign away your rights in the beginning. The only reason that Kaiser will support anything is to make an appearance of one thing while in truth presenting something else.

I can personally attest to the "quality" of care from Kaiser-Permanente.

If you dig deeply enough you'll find the links.

Always remember, follow the money. What you see with these boys is definitely NOT what you get.

 

[cruztbone]

Gallup reports that , with the onset of some of the provisions of Obamacare, the public remains divided, but slightly more than not support it (49-46 %) . for those of who without health care and under 26, you can stay on your parents health care program. children with preexsiting health conditions MUST be insured by the company carrying a policy for them. There is NO lifetime cap on benefits now.
and the donut hole gap in medicare coverage for medications is closing, easing the financial burden on the elderly.
so SHO94 and others, before you denounce what you clearly DONT KNOW about Obamacare, think again.
Medical insurance for ALL Americans is the only way to economic justice for all. your delusional beliefs that somehow you should be exempt notwithstanding, you are part of this nation it is your responsibility to provide for your health if you are disabled , injured or sick. It is our govenment's responsibility to "promote the general welfare". that is in the preamble to the constitution. i realize that some of you have never read it. please do, and accept your citizen responsibility and seek out a health care plan, using one of the public exhanges now available through HHS. They are available to US citizens who are unemployed and disabled. and now, thanks to Obamacare, they cant discriminate against you. Finally.

 

[B_Marius567]

. You are young and don’t want health insurance? You are starting up a small business and need to minimize expenses, and one way to do that is to forego health insurance? Tough. You have to pay $750 annually for the “privilege.” (Section 1501)

The government will extract a fee of $2.3 billion annually from the pharmaceutical industry. If you are a pharmaceutical company what you will pay depends on the ratio of the number of brand-name drugs you sell to the total number of brand-name drugs sold in the U.S. So, if you sell 10% of the brand-name drugs in the U.S., what you pay will be 10% multiplied by $2.3 billion, or $230,000,000. (Under reconciliation, it starts at $2.55 billion, jumps to $3 billion in 2012, then to $3.5 billion in 2017 and $4.2 billion in 2018, before settling at $2.8 billion in 2019 (Section 1404)). Think you, as a pharmaceutical executive, know how to better use that money, say for research and development? Tough. (Section 9008 (b)).

 

[B_talltpaguy]

^Time has already proven that no, the pharmaceutical executives don't know how to best use that money for the good of America... That's the whole point here. They pay the profits to themselves, or invent boner pills with it, instead of investing those funds into solving diseases.