Feminism & porn - can they agree with each other?

[Scarletbegonia]

I feel like I'm walking headlong into a trap, but what's problematic about it?

Requires thinking. Therefore, problem?
I don't know. All humans have dignity and rights is such a tough concept.

Hey, can you get rid of the haters in the Lone Star state? I got too tired and moved.

Also, has anyone filled Molly Ivins' boots?

 

[Daisy]

The only porn I will watch is all male. I can't stand to see ANY female in porn. I hate the way they do that fake laugh and fake screaming with fake lips and fake boobs. Even Fem-Dom porn is annoying because I dont want to see anyone hurt or humiliated. Why would I want to see that? I like guys jerking off on the beach or gay guys sucking eachother and thats about it. Nothing scripted. Nothing hard core. No humiliation, gagging, choking. Yuck.

and by the way I am a feminist and if you think all feminists are (whatever you said up there) you're a misogynistic tool.

 

[Austingal]

The only porn I will watch is all male. I can't stand to see ANY female in porn. I hate the way they do that fake laugh and fake screaming with fake lips and fake boobs. Even Fem-Dom porn is annoying because I dont want to see anyone hurt or humiliated. Why would I want to see that? I like guys jerking off on the beach or gay guys sucking eachother and thats about it. Nothing scripted. Nothing hard core. No humiliation, gagging, choking. Yuck.

and by the way I am a feminist and if you think all feminists are (whatever you said up there) you're a misogynistic tool.

Daisy, do you think all porn is either

a) acted
or
b) faked?

 

[Daisy]

I think the vast majority of porn on a site like pornhub is going to be acted and or faked yes.It does absolutely NOTHING for me.

 

[Austingal]

I think the vast majority of porn on a site like pornhub is going to be acted and or faked yes.It does absolutely NOTHING for me.

I'm not sure I agree. While there is a huge porn industry doing all of that there are also MILLIONS of people just filming themselves having sex. And, whatever else that is, "fake" isn't one of the things.

 

[Daisy]

I'm not sure I agree. While there is a huge porn industry doing all of that there are also MILLIONS of people just filming themselves having sex. And, whatever else that is, "fake" isn't one of the things.

Yeah as far as amateur couple,s yes that is out there but for some reason I think 2 people screwing is generally boring. What kind of porn do you like?

 

[Austingal]

Yeah as far as amateur couple,s yes that is out there but for some reason I think 2 people screwing is generally boring. What kind of porn do you like?

Anything that has the smarts to draw me in. Moods change so there can be no guaranteed type. In general, I don't like commercial stuff though for the reasons you gave. I prefer amateur.

 

[TexanStar]

Anything that has the smarts to draw me in. Moods change so there can be no guaranteed type. In general, I don't like commercial stuff though for the reasons you gave. I prefer amateur.

^^

Same (including that grey area of low-glam professional amateur scenes if what I'm saying makes any sense).

 

[950483]

In the olden days there used to be a magazine called 'On Our Backs'. It was a feminist lesbian porn magazine, named so in response to an anti-porn feminist publication called 'Off Our Backs'. It wasn't all snuggles and holding hands, as I remember one issue in particular that did feature a faux child abuse fantasy, (though the women in the photos were quite clearly adults).
Anyone saying "feminists this... feminists that" should realize that there are different branches of feminism with different ideas, and that individual feminists also have differing opinions. Commercial porn would need to improve a hell of a lot in order to be compatible with my feminist beliefs, and to appeal to me.
One of the reasons I feel that porn is exploitative to both men and women involved is, as Scarletbegonia said, about working conditions and employment rights, and pay. There are a few other reasons too, and they are not all because of the evil F word.

 

[marinera]

When I was young, romanticism was the porn for women; nowadays,that is stil true at some degree, but more and more women seems to like porn too, and sometimes prety nasty porn. Women have a wider spectrum as far as sexuality, they can get horny with different things, and the same woman can have heavily different tastes in different times.

About objiectification of women in porn: porn is one of the few fields were women have more power than men, they are paid more, theirs names ar on the covers, etc..

 

[Tattooed Goddess]

When hubs and I made vids for Xtube many years ago, I found that our stuff appealed to women. More women than I imagined. There is a primal theme with passionate delivery. It's not up close in your face HD visceral porn that lack genuine female orgasms. It's viewed from further away (like a voyeuristic point of view) so you can see both of our bodies at the same time. We never played it up for the cam or did things I didn't want to do. Just purely a video of what we do when no one else is around.

Do all women like that? Absolutely not. I know of a few females that like the hardcore, female abusing porn. Strange I know. But to each their own. Obviously men liked our videos too, much more of them than females due to the gender ratios, so there is no doubt an audience for the stuff we made. What we show is pretty rare to find. I know because I've tried to find it and when I couldn't I said fuck it I will make my own. .

I believe that porn has lost it's way somewhere in the digital age. It's become all about perfect lighting, too much self tanner, bad tribal tattoos, facials, and calling the woman derogatory words (outside of the context of BDSM) purely to appeal to the younger male generation. Even those who are older have had to watch their fair share of modern porn to suffice their visual needs. Those who remember porn from the 70s, 80s, and some of the early 90s remember there being more passion and substance to the porn. Those who like pubic hair are considered fetishists now. Modern porn has definitely taken over the majority of stuff you can find on the internet.

I like to watch some out of the ordinary stuff just to not have to watch mainstream garbage. I know being someone who is 100% for equal rights among genders can enjoy porn if it has appealing qualities.

 

[Brisler]

I agree with swoon and Scarletbegonia. My clear impression is that the working conditions in a lot of commercial porn are incompatible with feminism (and human rights, for that matter).

I see no reason why porn and feminism shouldn't be able to go hand in hand, but abuse of women and feminism definitely cannot. My point being that porn isn't inherently abusive towards anyone. The message that porn sends is secondary to the actual, physical and mental abuse that takes place. If the industry got an overhaul that prevented people from not only being pushed beyond their comfort zone, but that ensured that people would only work under 100% acceptable conditions and would have 100% personal control over what to participate in and what not to participate in, a lot of the issues about which message porn conveys would solve themselves.

There's a lot of very nasty porn out there, and it makes me sick to my stomach, because I can't be sure that the woman in the scene isn't being pressured and indirectly (or directly) forced to participate. I know very well, given the working conditions and the reputation of the porn industry, that it's not unlikely to be the case. Given the circumstances, I have to assume that abuse has or is taking place in order to get those scenes done. I feel obliged to do so, as I don't want to support an industry like that in any way. And this means that a lot of porn is off limits to me personally.

But I think it's entirely possible to shoot a porn scene in which men spit on the woman, gag her, shoves several dicks up her butt, pisses on her, or whatever the hell is going on in porn, without it being sexist. It all depends on how it's portrayed and under which conditions it was negotiated and performed. I wouldn't watch it anyway, as it isn't anything that tickles my fancy. But if a woman is turned on by that kind of stuff, if the shoot in genuinely indicative of her desires, far be it from me to call her sexist because of it. Now, if the scene indicates that she deserves to be spat on simply because she's a woman and all women are whores and yada-yada, then the movie is conveying a sexist message, obviously. But I'm not sure that any consensual sex act can be claimed to be inherently sexist.

 

[Doranq]

Never going to happen. Any that are betting on it are fools. Extremists will keep those damn fires set a blaze.

Some will go but Doranq, Extremists are the exception not the rule. I will say " yes yes, I know, but honestly they are so loud you really can't hear the fucking rules half the time."

 

[Brisler]

Never going to happen. Any that are betting on it are fools. Extremists will keep those damn fires set a blaze.

Some will go but Doranq, Extremists are the exception not the rule. I will say " yes yes, I know, but honestly they are so loud you really can't hear the fucking rules half the time."

Why is it so unrealistic to ensure better conditions for sex workers? As of right now, an entire industry is given leeway to utilize methods that would be deemed downright illegal in most other fields of employment. How is it gullible to expect and demand that such disregard for human rights cease to be?

All it takes is for the feeble and backwards little people and politicians of the world to accept that sex work isn't going to disappear, and that the only logical step is to start treating it like a legitimate type of work. It simply isn't right that a sex worker has no possibilities of fighting abuse.

I know that people or politicians aren't likely to make any significant changes unless the entire building is on fire, so it may take quite some time. But it must be a matter of time. The "we can't change it anyway so I'll just go on with my merry ol' life"-argument is a cop-out.

 

[Doranq]

Why is it so unrealistic to ensure better conditions for sex workers? As of right now, an entire industry is given leeway to utilize methods that would be deemed downright illegal in most other fields of employment. How is it gullible to expect and demand that such disregard for human rights cease to be?

All it takes is for the feeble and backwards little people and politicians of the world to accepts that sex work isn't going to disappear, and that the only logical step is to start treating it like a legitimate type of work. It simply isn't right that a sex worker has no possibilities of fighting abuse.

I know that people or politicians aren't likely to make any significant changes unless the entire building is on fire, so it may take quite some time. But it must be a matter of time. The "we can't change it anyway so I'll just go on with my merry ol' life"-argument is a cop-out.

My post wasn't in response to your post nor an acknowledgement of your post. The target post was towards the original posts. No other posts are taken into consideration. If it was a reply to you, I would have quoted you. or used the @

 

[Brisler]

My post wasn't in response to your post nor an acknowledgement of your post. The target post was towards the original posts. No other posts are taken into consideration. If it was a reply to you, I would have quoted you. or used the @

Okay then. I read it as a reply to my pleas about better working conditions, since you'd already made a general reply to the thread. But I see.

I would say that many posts in this thread disproves your claim that feminism and porn can't agree with each other. But I suppose you mean that porn will never agree with all feminists?

 

[Doranq]

But I suppose you mean that porn will never agree with all feminists?

Yep. Although few in numbers. They are a very noisy bunch.

 

[Tattooed Goddess]

I'm into BDSM so what may be abuse to one is a joy ride for another. For example, there's this dom that punched one of his subs in the face. It bothered me and my hubs greatly. I mentioned it up to a staff member who apparently knew them better than I did. She was like "Yeah that guy gets rough. But she likes it and consents to it" She was in a daze from the scene when he did it. She just laid down and they covered her with a blanket and his other subs comforted her. I saw him scene with his other women and they were geniunely having a great time, laughing and having fun being bratty to him. When I analyzed the whole thing in the context of BDSM between consensual partners and negotiations, it doesn't bother me as much. Don't get me wrong though, I'd never want to be punched or punch someone in the face. Not my cup of tea.

I said all of that to compare it to some of the abuse porn that gets glorified on the internet, like Facial Abuse, who sends their failed videos to another website that posts them. They show so many girls in true panic for their lives when they are being gagged with cock to the point of vomiting everywhere. Then they proceed to spit on her and laugh at her. She will genuinely be crying. You can tell she's uncomfortable and probably agreed to stuff she had no idea was going to be so bad. The type of guys this porn is being made for are the types I'd imagine to hate women and take their anger out on them. I don't condone that at all.

Two situations where abuse can be identified in some way, one is in the confines of a well-thought out relationship with boundaries clearly identified and respected. One does not equate the other in my book.

Then there's well made kink porn with well known female kink stars that play a submissive role. In these films you might see elaborate rope restraints and good BDSM tools. Not every dom is one that I'd like to submit to because there is genuine fear in the eyes of his subjects. I don't get off on that. But some companies are known for doing things the subjects particularly enjoys. They will laugh, etc. Afterwards there are scenes of how they felt about the experience and they show so much elation and a high from what they just went through. That's the kind of stuff I like. But to a vanilla person it would all look the same. No understanding of dynamics and or how boundaries are placed and respected in some of those scenarios.

 

[marinera]

Uhmmm....that reminds me of this
Stoya, James Deen and the New Shift in Rape Culture

• Laurie Penny @PennyRed

Dec. 8, 2015
Last week, Stoya accused James Deen of rape. Deen denies it. I believe Stoya.

....
Within days, the porn industry had turned against its golden boy. In so doing, it became the first professional community to respond to allegations of serial sexual violence by actually believing women from the start.
...
http://time.com/4138647/laurie-penny-stoya-james-deen/

 

[Oxnard]

It fucking better start agreeing more.

The current state of porn really pisses me off.

First, the cum shots are always on the woman's face. Every fucking time. I don't like cum shots at all, but at least back in the past, they were more likely to do it on her stomach or her butt, and the face thing was merely a rare horror. But now? Face, face, face, every fucking time the face. I always close the video on the money shot anyway, but it still torques my 'nards knowing that it happens.

And why the fuck can't we have more foreplay for the woman?

Not only does it seem disrespectful for a guy to expect to receive but not give foreplay, but it upsets me as a male heterosexual porn viewer. Why the hell would I want to see most of the screen filled with cock for that long? Why can't I get the opportunity to stare at and marvel at her genitals? Why can't I see more expressions of pleasure on her face during the foreplay sequences? As I mentioned in another thread, I tend to fast forward through most of the foreplay anyway, but what little is there is often not to my tastes as a straight man. Seeing women in pleasure gets me off; guys, not so much.

Moving on to more squarely feminist issues, I'm a huge believer in sex positive feminism (that liking sex doesn't make a woman bad, think of it as the opposite of slut-shaming). Part of that is genuine concern for women, but part of that is also purely selfish. It's also part of my sexual urges. I want a nice woman with a strong sex drive, dammit. Why can't they sell fantasies to guys like me with my proclivities? Why does it always have to be men giving money to women before sex and men calling women "slut" or "bitch" or whatever? That shit takes me out of the mood.

Oh, what is the selfish part of liking sex positive feminism? Glad you asked.

Sex researchers have found that the dynamics of sexual urges are more complex than originally thought:

www.ohjoysextoy.com: Science of Desire by Dr. Emily Nagoski & R.Stevens

Long story short, there is a list of pluses and minuses that affect everyone's sex drive (not necessarily consciously), and all that slut-shaming bullshit has the effect of destroying women's self-image and suppressing their sex drive. So when you contribute to cultural attitudes about slut-shaming, you are increasing the chances that your wife or girlfriend will give you the "Not tonight honey, I have a headache" excuse. Make her neurotic enough, and she'll want sex less often without understanding why. It may even affect your partner's ability to enjoy sex.

So yeah, I really, really wish that the porn industry degraded women less and gave me more sexual fantasies involving sex-positive feminism.

I can't say this enough: I like nice women with a strong self image and a strong sex drive. That degrading shit is unappealing to me.