Homoeroticism among straight men

[Ganymede]

[deleted post in attempt to start new page, away from strange formatting]

 

[Ganymede]

Could you please remove all those links so that the page will go back to normal?

I want to respond, but I hate the page like this.

Thanks.

 

[Corius]

Always hated the use of labels and I always have just a bit of a question in my mind about those who insist they 100% gay or 100% straight. I know. The sexual models in my little town were all heterosexual; boys grew up expecting that someday they would do what every boy did--:get married. I only knew that I had a few things I wanted to do before that happened. I was friendly toward the girls but not too friendly and I had a suspicion that the "stuff" that I carefully caught in some toilet paper when I was indoors and didn't worry about where it landed when I was doing my stuff outdoors--well, I knew that stuff planted with some girl could mean trouble--every guy knew that and some of us even knew the place where they had the coin-operated machines to get the "rubbers"--I had a pack hidden away in the garage--never did carry them and when I looked for them they weren't there--I never did figure who found them; I knew it wasn't my dad because if he had found them we'd all have heard.

My growing up was pretty ordinary until the summer I turned 15. A new guy in the neighborhood was the turning point in my coming to real sexual awareness. He was 15 too and we became good friends and before long we were doing things we never even thought of before; we were hugging and then it was deep hugging and how wonderful it was to discover that he was as "hard" as I was so it was natural that we jacked off together. He was as endowed as I but his foreskin was over-generous and we had great fun getting each other off by docking--we enjoyed as if we were the first to discover this wonderful use of our foreskins for mutual masterbation. It was great fun. When we got as far as kissing we knew we had found something out about our sexuality and about our feelings for each other that scared and thrilled us at once. Now meeting him in the hall between classes gave me a sudden erection and I told him so and he admitted that I had the same effect on him. By Thanksgiving we had added the bliss of expressing the bond between us in the 69 position.

By the time we graduated from high school we were thoroughly devoted to "man-to-man" sexual bonding, We were both sorry to be off to college in different directions. All this was possible because we had the space, the opportunity, and the necessary privacy to discover that "gay" side of our sexuality. My introduction to heterosexual bonding two years later was as gradual and as wonderful. She was as fastidious as I in avoiding any unintended pregnancy and enjoyed our more than friendship relationship until we both moved on to different universities. During the next four years I was at two more universities and had the good fortune of rooming at each place with a man who was already a friend. Both are today long into long term "gay" relationships while I found the woman that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. We are very happy in love.

I learned that I am capable of sustaining a long-term fully sexual relationship with a man or a woman. I am not "ex" anything. Yes, sex with a man is different from sex with a woman; both I found to be natural and awesome. While I admit that that old feeling is still there; it isn't so strong that I would cheat on my wife. I take my commitment to her with the "til death do us part" without any willingness to compromise through some arrangement for satisfying the persistent urge. We who have known the joy of homosexual love and heterosexual love have to choose; and, we do but the memory lingers on. And, I would add, there is that not inconsiderable joy of fatherhood.

I needed to put this all down. I want folks at this site to know that if one has "been there and done that" one becomes more appreciative of love, whether with a man or a woman, and of the importance of commitment in love and one praises both.

 

[B_Guy Love]

Thanks for sharing. This is very interesting.

So, do you consider yourself straight now?

 

[Fire Stick]

In our culture, heterosexual women often acknowledge and converse openly about the beauty of other women without others thinking it strange, perceiving them to be gay, or describing their expressed appreciation for other female forms as "homoerotic." However, conventional social mores discourage this behavior in straight men.

Nonetheless, I believe that most straight men, even those who experience absolutely no sexual attraction to other men, can tell if other men are clearly physically attractive. The more sensitive straight men may be able to "appreciate" the appearance of other men in much same way that one can appreciate art, architecture, decor, or anything else, that may be in good form, but just not one's own personal taste. I would not call this homoeroticism.

 

[invisibleman]

Just imagine a world without homophobia. Things would be just plain erotic.
Wouldn't have to worry about "Is this homoerotic?" "Is there homo-
eroticism in straight men?"

Could you fathom the personalities when one is free from societal gender roles? Can you imagine the relieve on men worrying about whether something is gay or not?

Crazy.

 

[BayAreaGuy]

...On the other hand, is it possible that there could be a link between homoeroticism and male chauvinism? On a thread about traveling (http://www.lpsg.org/underwear-clothing-and-appearance-issues/41399-airport-bathrooms-5.html) I mention a gay friend of mine who told me that, oddly, in many of the chauvinist countries where women are not equal citizens and where gays have no rights, the straight men get away with a lot of behavior that in the US would be labeled as gay.

It seems obvious to me that, in these countries where gays have no rights, that most of their gay men would get married and live lives as "straight" men. As a result, many of the guys your friend is seeing "getting away with...behavior that in the US would be labeled as gay," are actually gay men.

For example, in Muslim countries it's common for close male friends to hold hands and kiss. That would never happen in the US.

The US appears to be one of the most openly homophobic countries in the world, but it's an illusion. In Muslim countries, gays are either hanged [Iran, Syria], or imprisoned for life [Iraq, Pakistan]. As of about 2001, we don't prosecute homosexuality (Hurrah for good old American insight! It only took us until the 21st century to figure that one out!).

It seems to me, though, that a lot of the homophobia here in the U.S. stems from the fact that we're more aware of homosexuality, so the heterosexual men here are more paranoid about it than in stricter countries. Our men hesitate to touch each other in anything but the most violent ways (with a few ritualized exceptions, or if they're drunk and let down their defenses), they leave a seat between them at the movie theater, they don't express affection for each other verbally unless it's coded or laced with insults. In countries where homosexuality is never addressed, men don't seem to think in terms of "Someone will think I'm one of those gays we keep hearing about all the time," because they never hear about them.

 

[BayAreaGuy]

Can I just say "wow" to Patrol's response? Makes me wonder if he's a sexologist, or sociologist? His response is one of the most intelligent ones I've seen on this board, or any board, and I may have to print it out to fully understand what you're saying....

Someone once said, "Anything that can be said, can be said simply. Anything that can be written, can be written simply." That's one of the marks of someone who really knows what he's talking about. Simplicity that leaves out no detail.

You suggested (maybe jokingly) that he must be a sexologist or sociologist. Well, as a Psychologist, I think I should chime in here and set a few things straight (as it were). The following may have little to do with the subject of "homoeroticism in heterosexual men," but I think it's important.
-----------------------------------------------------------

First of all, if you're going to understand human sexuality, four psychological constructs need to be defined and understood, each of which operates separately from the others (although they can overlap).

1. Gender Identity: one's sense of being male or female (people whose GI doesn't match their body often want gender reassignment surgery).

2. Sexual Behavior: the sexual acts people engage in (having sex with men, women, or each).

3. Eroticism: the experiences (real or imagined) that one finds arousing and/or desires to engage in (this is the one that measures your Sexual Orientation).

4. Sexual Self-Labeling: the identity one professes (to others, and/or to himself) in regard to sexual orientation (e.g., bisexual, heterosexual, homosexual, etc.).

Each of these four can exist in countless variations within people. For instance, you may find a phenotypic woman (in other words, a person with a woman's body) whose Gender Identity is male, who engages in sex with females, is turned on by both males and females, and who considers herself a Lesbian (homosexual). Even more interesting, if she were to have a sex-change operation and "become a man," she might continue to self-label as a Lesbian.

Another example is men in prison. They're often described as being "gay in prison, but straight once released." Ridiculous. Simply engaging in a behavior doesn't determine one's Eroticism. Sexual Orientation is a measure of one's Eroticism (what turns her/him on). Guys in prison don't have sex with men because they're turned on by men; they have sex with men because that's the only thing available.

A more common example is homosexual men who marry women (due to social pressure, for instance). They might have sex with the woman and produce offspring, but that doesn't make them straight. Behavior doesn't determine your Sexual Orientation. They're still gay because they're still exclusively turned on by men. Exceptions may spring to mind, but that's only because of the wide variety in human psychology.

Another important thing to know is that all this "blank state" bullshit needs to stop. Since the 1960s, Psychology has been infected by the notion that everything is learned. That's complete bullshit. We're BORN WITH a sexual orientation that's biological, not socially determined. No matter how you were raised, where, or by whom, your sexual orientation is static (check out Anything But Straight by Besen). What we do sexually, how we self-label, etc. is all beside the point, and to keep telling ourselves that we can be anything we want if we really try hard is damaging; it implies that people are gay because they choose to not be straight or because someone fucked them up...which is bullshit.

 

[Corius]

GUY LOVE, I thank you for reading my post (the format of page 3 is wierd on my PC). No, I accept the complexity of my own sexuality. For many years all of my sexual activity has been in a heterosexual relationship; I am very happily married and I don't ever seek any sex outside of my marriage. In short, I like being married; particularly because I happen to love my wife.

Having said all that let me tell you that I am still "turned on" by being in the presence of certain other women. I am also "turned on" in the presence of certain other men. But, I do not act on these urges ever. In my mind and occasionally when I visit with my first lover we reflect with sweet satisfaction of the two years of sexual love we enjoyed together. With him especially I am reminded of the joys of homosexual love. He is my best friend still. I respect and freely accept the restraints that love in a committed relationship requires. But my thoughts are free and I know my body sends me signals which those who claim to be 100% straight deny. Were I single I can well imagine that if I met the right man I might well find myself in a committed relationship with a man. After all I was confining myself to homosexual activity over a total period of six years. I would never denigrate male-to-male bonding. The sex I had with those three partners (all are still good friends) was great.

Each of us makes his or her own arrangements to suit our unique sexuality.
I would not presume to judge the arrangements others make. I can speak only of my own "arrangement." No one that I know of has ever been hurt by my chosen course.

 

[B_Guy Love]

Just to clarify, my friend who is gay and who has traveled to Muslim countries did not say that he had sex with self-identified straight men. He said that in these other countries the self-identified straight men got away with hugging, kissing, hand-holding, all in public, and that ironically this was something he really enjoyed about Muslim countries. The Muslim countries in some ways have a more open attitude to men showing affection with one another. My friend implied that a gay man would ironically enjoy Muslim countries for this reason. He said this was the reason he enjoyed them.

You said it all yourself right here: In countries where homosexuality is never addressed, men don't seem to think in terms of "Someone will think I'm one of those gays we keep hearing about all the time," because they never hear about them.

Another thing to take into account is that sexuality as a category is a new phenomenon. Prior to the 1900s, there was no such thing as "a gay person" or "a straight person." There were people who committed either homosexual or heterosexal acts. I think that this most likely is the attitude that remains in the Muslim worlds. Therefore, you can't really say that the "gay" men get married and live "straight" lives in the Muslim countries. There is no concept of either, really. There are people who commit sexual acts.

I don't think "gay" are killed in Muslim countries. I think people who commit homosexual acts are killed. I don't think the concept of "gay" and "straight" exists in the Muslim countries as it does in the US.

It seems obvious to me that, in these countries where gays have no rights, that most of their gay men would get married and live lives as "straight" men. As a result, many of the guys your friend is seeing "getting away with...behavior that in the US would be labeled as gay," are actually gay men.



The US appears to be one of the most openly homophobic countries in the world, but it's an illusion. In Muslim countries, gays are either hanged [Iran, Syria], or imprisoned for life [Iraq, Pakistan]. As of about 2001, we don't prosecute homosexuality (Hurrah for good old American insight! It only took us until the 21st century to figure that one out!).

It seems to me, though, that a lot of the homophobia here in the U.S. stems from the fact that we're more aware of homosexuality, so the heterosexual men here are more paranoid about it than in stricter countries. Our men hesitate to touch each other in anything but the most violent ways (with a few ritualized exceptions, or if they're drunk and let down their defenses), they leave a seat between them at the movie theater, they don't express affection for each other verbally unless it's coded or laced with insults. In countries where homosexuality is never addressed, men don't seem to think in terms of "Someone will think I'm one of those gays we keep hearing about all the time," because they never hear about them.

 

[B_Guy Love]

Maybe I didn't make something clear here. Maybe I need to state it more explicitly: I think that homoeroticism between straight men is very beautiful. (I just got a boner from writing that very sentence!) In fact, I was a bit disappointed to find that what I had mistaken as homoeroticism between straight men is actually, technically speaking, simply erotically charged heterosexual voyeurism.

Another example of homoeroticism between straight men:

A (straight) friend of mine told me a while back that he and another (straight) friend were having a beer at a bar. The other guy got all worked up, bragging about his sex life, saying, "Oh, yeah, that night I was working hard. I was giving her my full seven inches."

Damn, that's hot. I love the idea of two straight men sharing this kind of information.

Just imagine a world without homophobia. Things would be just plain erotic.
Wouldn't have to worry about "Is this homoerotic?" "Is there homo-
eroticism in straight men?"

Could you fathom the personalities when one is free from societal gender roles? Can you imagine the relieve on men worrying about whether something is gay or not?

Crazy.

 

[Corius]

Yes, GUY LOVE, but there are some of us who, drunk or sober, would never have that kind of conversation. Why? Simply because we view sex between two persons who are deeply committed to each other as very personal and properly very private. For some of us to boast of, or even discuss, what happens in sexual activity with our committed partner would be to betray the trust that is so vital to personal sexual relations.

We all make our own arrangements on these matters and I do not presume to judge others. The details of their sex lives I consider as none of my business. Some of us may need to talk about these matters and value this site as a safe place to do so because of the anonymity it offers. I can only speak of what has worked for me.

And, I continue to read your posts with great interest.

 

[B_Guy Love]

Thanks for the response.

Just to clarify, I have no background info regarding the exchange between my friend and his friend. I don't know the nature of the relationship between that man and the woman he was having sex with. Also, I don't think that such exchanges between men are really that rare. I think that one may be a little more explicit than many conversations between men. But I think that while drinking conversations can become more explicit than usual.

At any rate ... I was using that exchange as an example of my so-called "homoeroticism between straight men." That exchange is hetersexual, because it's about a heterosexual sex act. It is obviously erotic. And it is being discussed by two men (homo=same; same gender). So, piece it all together and it could feasibly be seen as homo-eroticism between straight men.

I think this is a common phenomenon. I think that straight men do this with each other all the time, get together and talk about women, or erotic experiences, and get each other charged up with erotic energy.

 

[Corius]

Thanks, GUY LOVE, I believe in free speech, but I hope and I am very confidant that none of my partners would ever discuss what happened between us sexually with any third party. I have never ever even wanted details concerning a partner's previous sexual activity. It has worked well for me, but I do not make judgements as to the value of the patterns others adapt for themselves. On this site I feel free to admit that I have a very high appreciation for both homosexual and heterosexual love and I have experienced both. Both, at their best, represent one of the most precious gifts which humans can share; however, much of the sexual activity I hear of falls far below the standard.

 

[Sergeant_Torpedo]

It genuinely does puzzle me why all this disecting of sexuality. Those whom align themselves to an exclusive sexuality sub culture (the so called gay world) are as dogmatic and controlling as the Roman curia. Would a straight man watching a man and woman fucking be entering the area of homoeroticism ? I do not think so. Though I suspect straight men overly interested in lesbian scenarios in porn display some deep pathological flaw that would quite rightly question their sexuality.

The ancient world did not seem so inclined to stick labels on themselves. I have looked at works of art that some critic has termed "homoerotic" and thought, bullshit. It could be a brilliant piece of art tht has some erotic context but if a straight male and a straight female can appreciate it then the whole thesis of sexual categoriztion crumbles.

 

[B_Guy Love]

I don't see that we're dissecting sexuality. We're simply discussing it. As to the "why?" of it, well ... because we enjoy it. I mean, this is a discussion group after all.

Again, I'm not troubled by the concept of homoeroticism. I'm just trying to understand what is and what isn't defined as "homoerotic."

It genuinely does puzzle me why all this disecting of sexuality. Those whom align themselves to an exclusive sexuality sub culture (the so called gay world) are as dogmatic and controlling as the Roman curia. Would a straight man watching a man and woman fucking be entering the area of homoeroticism ? I do not think so. Though I suspect straight men overly interested in lesbian scenarios in porn display some deep pathological flaw that would quite rightly question their sexuality.

The ancient world did not seem so inclined to stick labels on themselves. I have looked at works of art that some critic has termed "homoerotic" and thought, bullshit. It could be a brilliant piece of art tht has some erotic context but if a straight male and a straight female can appreciate it then the whole thesis of sexual categoriztion crumbles.

 

[B_Guy Love]

Thanks for yet another response.

There seem to be two topics of discussion here:

1. The sharing of information between two men regarding their heterosexual sex lives.

2. Whether such sharing is appropriate.

To be completely honest, I'm not terribly interested in topic #2. Again, I used the scenario of two guys sharing intimate information about their heterosexual sex lives as an illustration of the thing I have defined as "homoeroticism between straight men." I find this type of sharing highly erotic. There is something really beautiful about straight men sharing information about their heterosexual sex lives.

I'm not sure you're understanding where I'm coming from.

Thanks, GUY LOVE, I believe in free speech, but I hope and I am very confidant that none of my partners would ever discuss what happened between us sexually with any third party. I have never ever even wanted details concerning a partner's previous sexual activity. It has worked well for me, but I do not make judgements as to the value of the patterns others adapt for themselves. On this site I feel free to admit that I have a very high appreciation for both homosexual and heterosexual love and I have experienced both. Both, at their best, represent one of the most precious gifts which humans can share; however, much of the sexual activity I hear of falls far below the standard.

 

[B_Hung Muscle]

It genuinely does puzzle me why all this disecting of sexuality. Those whom align themselves to an exclusive sexuality sub culture (the so called gay world) are as dogmatic and controlling as the Roman curia.

You shouldn't be so puzzled about the dissecting of sexuality on a website dedicated to large penises. Okay, that mystery solved.

I guess what puzzles me is your verbosity in describing those who (not whom) "align themselves to an exclusive sexuality sub culture (the so called gay world)" as being "as dogmatic and controlling as the Roman curia." What the hell does that mean? Do you honestly believe that gay people -- or better stated, those who align themselves with an "exclusive sexuality" -- are in a position of control? Yikes. Who knew?

But worse, your post suggests that you believe people actually make a conscious choice of how they "align" sexually.

Newsflashes: (1) gay people are a minority, and have, on a global basis, a modicum of the rights taken for granted by straight people (or, those who "align themselves to an exclusive sexuality majority"), and (2) no one chooses their "alignment."

Sorry, but to me, this is all just more homophobia disguised as blahblahblah, overwritten, ungrammatical, misspelled clap-trap.

Where's the ignore button?

 

[B_Guy Love]

I agree with at least one point: of course we're talking about sexuality; that's what this site is for!

 

[B_dxjnorto]

I don't care much about straight guys talking about their sex lives with each other. My experience is that most guys are posturing especially around other men; they say what they think other guys want to hear - and this is frequently banal.

I am interested in the ways in which culture shapes our personas. For instance; women can refer to their close personal friends as their girlfriends, but if men would call their best friends their boyfriends that would be the equivalent of flying the rainbow flag.

Culture influences our behavior in a myriad of ways we are mostly insensitive to. Just as some of the Muslim cultures seem to be accepting of some culturally coded displays which we would regard as obviously homosexual, they absolutely do not accept homosexuals, and are as insensible to the incongruence as we are to the incongruences of our culture(s).