Scottish Independence

dandelion

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Posts
13,297
Media
21
Likes
2,705
Points
358
Location
UK
Verification
View
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
Alex Salmond says a scottish referendum on independence is back on the cards. On account of the government refusing to deliver its promises of devo max toScotland. No doubt also because of its plans to disenfranchise scottish MPs in the commons. And the budget which didnt go down well. And the possibility of a Uk exit from the EU.
 

rbkwp

Mythical Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Posts
80,744
Media
1
Likes
46,007
Points
608
Location
Auckland (New Zealand)
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
LOVE

the Scots/Scotch/Greeks/Irish/Spanish etc

great thread revival ..

yes but unfortunatly in a colder climate with rain

ha, normal and cool huh'
 

dandelion

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Posts
13,297
Media
21
Likes
2,705
Points
358
Location
UK
Verification
View
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
That lass from the SNP has been busy embarassing the government. Not Nicola Sturgeon, Mhairi Black, the youngest MP in the country, who has been standing up in parliament saying how lunatic the procedure of the house of commons is, and reform is well overdue. Liked her speech, where she said she was the only 20 year old in the Uk who was given free housing by the government (because as an MP she gets a free home in London, whereas no other 20 year old is entitled to housing benefit).
 

Jason

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Posts
15,642
Media
62
Likes
5,043
Points
433
Location
London (Greater London, England)
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
Given the performance of SNP at the General Election I think we have to accept that there is a case for another independence referendum. The people of Scotland rejected independence then voted for the pro-independence party. If there's a repeat in 2016 in the Scottish parliamentary election then it seems hard to resist another referendum.

I suggest we all have to learn the lessons from the last. Before voting the people of Scotland need to know where the sea border would be. The people of Scotland need to know the split of UK assets and liabilities (perhaps on a census date just before the referendum - the details would of course change in the couple of years following). Devo-max means Scotland already has bond-issuing power (called the "Kilties") - Scotland needs to get on and issue these so that we can see the market valuation of Scottish debt. We also need to do the paperwork to split the pound sterling and pound Scots so that this is ready to go, perhaps just a few weeks after a referendum where Scotland votes to leave the UK.

I think we need to get the parameters set out. Probably we need people voting for the Union to be voting for a package which includes no further referendum for a generation, end of the subsidies paid to Scotland (by England, Wales and NI), introduction of some enhanced EVEL at Westminster, and some sort of Westminster lock on the Scottish parliament which prevents a socialist entity being set up which undermines the UK. In effect people voting for the Union would not be voting for the status quo or devo-max but a much closer union.

I think England has to act now to work out how the border would be secured. An independent Scotland would of course be outside the EU (and rUK in, unfortunately), so this would be a serious, fenced border. I can see that trains could be sorted, but the major roads (A1, A7, A74) would be a headache. We have to do this work soon.
 
S

superbot

Guest
I'd crap myself laughing if Diversity Dave turned round and agreed to another referendum...but this time for the English to decide Scotlands fate!! I'm pretty sure of the result of that one !!
 

10silverdollars

Cherished Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2015
Posts
357
Media
0
Likes
308
Points
73
Location
West Coast
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
How long would it take to have a national stable currency in place? Would personal and national assets suffer a devaluation? Has national infrastructre been addressed?
 

Jason

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Posts
15,642
Media
62
Likes
5,043
Points
433
Location
London (Greater London, England)
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
How long would it take to have a national stable currency in place? Would personal and national assets suffer a devaluation? Has national infrastructre been addressed?

Some of the nations that have emerged from the USSR got currencies up and running in about six months - and Slovakia even more quickly, though with a lot of co-operation from the Czechs. I suspect a planned new currency would take about a year. In the event of an independence vote it would be needed quickly. The politicians assumed that Scotland would vote for the union in the last referendum and a new currency was not ready. We need to do better for a second referendum.

National assets and liabilities would be divided. There is international law on this. There is a problem in that Scotland owns RBS which has had an enormous bailout and there is an issue around whether Scotland should have all this debt. There must be solutions. Scotland is at present subsidised by the UK, so an independent Scotland would initially be poorer. Small nations can carry proportionally less debt than big ones, so Scotland would have its difficulties with the share of the debt. Additionally the markets will not think well of Scotland's proposed fiscal policy.

The sensible way to manage the process is that a new currency would initially be pegged on parity. This would require a Scottish central bank to defend a peg, and there would be costs. In order to manage this the new nation would need to set a balanced budget. Borrowing should be minimised as it will be expensive. As the currency is unpegged it seems very likely indeed that it would devalue. Trying to put a figure on it is alchemy, but 20% seems credible - so imports would go up in price significantly, though there would be an export boom.

However there is a non-sensible way. Alex Salmond said just before the last referendum that Scotland would repudiate its share of the UK national debt. The UK feared that markets would turn against UK bonds if markets felt that Scotland's share of every bond would be defaulted on (about 9%) and the system in place at the moment is that England, Wales and NI are guaranteeing 100% of UK bonds. Devo-max has given Scotland the right to issue their own bonds, but Scotland has not taken this up. The markets would price in their valuation of the Scottish economy. It really does seem that SNP is contemplating a straightforward repudiation of all debts. Quite where that leave England, Wales and NI is anyone's guess. The government would have a responsibility to go after Scotland for default. and it might lead to asset seizure.

Infrastructure issues are problematic. Almost all Scotland's trade passes through England. If Scotland is outside the EU and the UK in (or vice versa) there's a major border problem. More than half of Scottish rail passenger journeys go to English stations. Most international air journeys are via an English airport. These issues all have solutions, but require co-operation, not a Scotland that defaults on its share of debt. No-one can imagine how we would handle road frontiers (essential if Scotland is outside the EU). The biggest unknown is the sea border. When the nations were united no-one set this out. SNP show a map of the British Isles and draw a horizontal E-W line. The UK position is that international law is to extend the trend line of the land frontier. It makes an enormous difference, particularly in ownership of oil and gas.

If Scotland wants independence it is certainly possible, but as a much poorer nation. It may be that the ability to make its own foreign policy decisions outside the UK and outside the EU will make this worthwhile for the people of Scotland.
 

jaap_stam

Cherished Member
Joined
May 15, 2015
Posts
896
Media
0
Likes
291
Points
98
Location
Eindhoven, Jakarta
Sexuality
Unsure
Gender
Male
That lass from the SNP has been busy embarassing the government. Not Nicola Sturgeon, Mhairi Black, the youngest MP in the country, who has been standing up in parliament saying how lunatic the procedure of the house of commons is, and reform is well overdue. Liked her speech, where she said she was the only 20 year old in the Uk who was given free housing by the government (because as an MP she gets a free home in London, whereas no other 20 year old is entitled to housing benefit).

Re: Mhairi Black

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...black-maiden-speech-inspiring-wonderful-wrong

Is Ms. Black young and naive, or is the author of this commentary just a tad out of touch herself?
 

Jason

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Posts
15,642
Media
62
Likes
5,043
Points
433
Location
London (Greater London, England)
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
Mhairi Black has got a first class degree from Glasgow Uni, which is an impressive start to her career. I don't doubt she is clever and hard-working, but at 20 no-one has the life-experience to do the job of an MP. She will have an enormous constituency workload, much of which isn't party-political. She will be dealing with such problems as traveller camps, migrants, servicemen from her constituency who have terrible injuries or who die in action. On the basis of the depth of the issues any 20 year old is young and naive.

SNP seem to be running her as a poster-girl. Inevitably there is media interest in the youngest MP. Her speech would have been written by an SNP speech-writer. There are a few sound-bites in it. How any of it helps her constituents, the people she is paid to represent, I cannot see.
 

jaap_stam

Cherished Member
Joined
May 15, 2015
Posts
896
Media
0
Likes
291
Points
98
Location
Eindhoven, Jakarta
Sexuality
Unsure
Gender
Male
Mhairi Black has got a first class degree from Glasgow Uni, which is an impressive start to her career. I don't doubt she is clever and hard-working, but at 20 no-one has the life-experience to do the job of an MP. She will have an enormous constituency workload, much of which isn't party-political. She will be dealing with such problems as traveller camps, migrants, servicemen from her constituency who have terrible injuries or who die in action. On the basis of the depth of the issues any 20 year old is young and naive.

SNP seem to be running her as a poster-girl. Inevitably there is media interest in the youngest MP. Her speech would have been written by an SNP speech-writer. There are a few sound-bites in it. How any of it helps her constituents, the people she is paid to represent, I cannot see.

Ability as a political leader has little to do with age. People with "life experience" in their 50's or older have proven to be incapable of effectively dealing with those same issues as MP's. I'll take a 20 year old with a lot of energy who can learn quickly over an "experienced" 70 year with a long history of parliamentary mediocrity who can't even fake a basic level of empathy for the people he/she governs.

Alexander the Great conquered much of his known world through his 20's. Even if he had great lieutenants, there is still a great deal of strategy, logistics, and man-motivation that he had to have had to achieve his success. In my daily life, I'm surrounded by people in their 20's who have created businesses that provide high income jobs for many thousands of people. People in their 20's aren't all self-obsessed scenester pissheads.
 

Jason

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Posts
15,642
Media
62
Likes
5,043
Points
433
Location
London (Greater London, England)
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
But the job of an MP is not to be a political leader. It's to represent the concerns of the people within the constituency, and the starting point is to understand these concerns. Many of the tasks resemble those of a social worker. She can of course learn, but she's starting from far back.
 

jaap_stam

Cherished Member
Joined
May 15, 2015
Posts
896
Media
0
Likes
291
Points
98
Location
Eindhoven, Jakarta
Sexuality
Unsure
Gender
Male
But the job of an MP is not to be a political leader. It's to represent the concerns of the people within the constituency, and the starting point is to understand these concerns. Many of the tasks resemble those of a social worker. She can of course learn, but she's starting from far back.

My point still remains re: age considerations. If you really want your MP's to be glorified social workers, how is some 70 year old who is far removed economically from the daily struggles of his constituents expected to be effective in that role? It's a role that requires empathy and emotional energy - I see no reason why an intelligent 20 year old is less well equipped than limousine liberals and conservatives who are deep in the pockets of banking and corporate interests...
 

Jason

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Posts
15,642
Media
62
Likes
5,043
Points
433
Location
London (Greater London, England)
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
Most MPs are pretty down-to-earth individuals. They are mostly doing at least one weekly constituency "surgery" and a lot of other constituency work, which is pretty gritty stuff. None of them are habitually swanning around in limousines - the expenses scandal has ensured that they are using second class rail. If anyone can ever prove an MP is in the pocket of a bank or similar that MP will be off to gaol - I just don't believe this is correct. Yes we have some rich people as MPs, but also a lot who are not. Very many have had times in their life when they have been poor.
 

dandelion

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Posts
13,297
Media
21
Likes
2,705
Points
358
Location
UK
Verification
View
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
Given the performance of SNP at the General Election I think we have to accept that there is a case for another independence referendum.
The case for a new referendum was made the day after the last one when suddenly all the policitical parties went into reverse over the promises they had made.

I think we need to get the parameters set out. Probably we need people voting for the Union to be voting for a package which includes no further referendum for a generation
But if these people change their mind, then they will expect a new vote. The frequency of votes will not depend upon some attempt to suppress public opinion but upon the views of the population.

But the job of an MP is not to be a political leader.
So tell it to 'call me Dave'. Theres no way he can be doing a good job. If you think a back bencher cannot do the job of an MP, how can the PM? Maybe he should take a peerage and resign as an MP? Maybe all ministers should?

Most MPs are pretty down-to-earth individuals.
Have you forgotten that TV program where some MPs were persuaded to be filmed for a week living on benefits rate pay? They absolutely hadnt a clue how to do it, whatever party they were from. If you want to give them a taste of realism, halve their pay. Well, quarter it. Maybe more.

I see the guardian article attacks Mhairi Black not for incompetence at being able to carry out the constituency job of an MP, or for lack of experience in standing up and delivering a political message, but for being a socialist. A big part of her speech actually attacked the house of commons for being completely out of touch with real people, and she is perfectly right about that. It seems people who like her are those outside the 'establishment'.

It also introduced the greek example of a small country in difficulties, but completely failed to pinpoint the real issue Greece has had, which has been bust banks. The failed RBS was a creation of the English parliament, not the Scots one.
 

Jason

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Posts
15,642
Media
62
Likes
5,043
Points
433
Location
London (Greater London, England)
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
Have you forgotten that TV program where some MPs were persuaded to be filmed for a week living on benefits rate pay? They absolutely hadnt a clue how to do it, whatever party they were from.

Have you forgotten people who really live on benefits? Most of them absolutely haven't a clue how to do it. I think our MPs' ability was as bad as most on benefits.
 

jaap_stam

Cherished Member
Joined
May 15, 2015
Posts
896
Media
0
Likes
291
Points
98
Location
Eindhoven, Jakarta
Sexuality
Unsure
Gender
Male
Have you forgotten people who really live on benefits? Most of them absolutely haven't a clue how to do it. I think our MPs' ability was as bad as most on benefits.

Being down to earth says less about one's ability to be an effective MP as being young...you can be down to earth and still be clueless.