Sex, big dicks, pain and morality

Discussion in 'Relationships, Discrimination, and Jealousy' started by MoociMan, Oct 15, 2011.

  1. MoociMan

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    I have been with different types of girls. Some where loose, others tight, and some too tight. No matter what I always try to get the best out of it, and there are rarely any real complications during sex. I realize some guys are so big, that they can really hurt their girls. In this thread we are not going to discuss how nice big dicks are, and comments about how you or some girl can take all of yours are not welcome here. Instead I want us to discuss where the boarder between acceptable pain and unacceptable pain is. More specifically: if you are with a girl and she tells you it hurts, how is the sex to continue? We all know that some people don't feel like aborting the intercourse for various reasons (for instance psychological pressure), and in those cases the question is what kind of behaviour is acceptable? When do you cross the boarder between having sex that is slightly uncomfortable and actual abuse?

    I found a video that made me feel really sad. It is a beautiful young girl and a black male. He is quite wellendowed and she is clearly in pain. She asks him, in a sad voice, to please finish up quickly since it hurts:

    This cock is just too big for her

    To me, that is a clear cut case of abuse no matter how you turn it. And I guess most guys (and girls) have been in situations like it, maybe in variying degrees. She doesn't tell him to stop, but still it seems like abuse is documented in the video.

    What are your thoughts about this? How are we to single out cases of rape/abuse from just plain uncomfortable sex? How do we determine when a girl chooses freely to finish painful sex from cases where her consent should clearly inauthentic? And what kind of responsibility is on the guys shoulders? What is benign neglect, what is stupid neglect, and when does it become moraly abominable neglect?
     
  2. shard38

    shard38 Member

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    If it hurts, something is wrong. I don't buy the whole "It hurts so good" porn tagline. If someones in pain, stop and find another way of satisfying each other. It can be very frustrating when it feels good for you, but how can you continue to pleasure yourself knowi g you're hurting someone?

    Of course it takes two. In the heat of the moment you don't always realise what you're doing. But in the case of this video (as far as they're not acting) his response should have been to ask her: "You want me to stop?"
     
    #2 shard38, Oct 15, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2011
  3. MoociMan

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    Yes, I agree. I picked the video because it seems authentic and is a very clear case of a man abusing a woman despite her implicit consent, i.e. askin him to finish, but urging him to do it quickly. I believe that even though her pleas imply consent, it is clearly not real consent, and thus he is abusing her. I also believe that he is moraly obligated to stop and get a dialogue going, even if he in fact took her pleas as consent. I have had experiences where girls hesitated to ask me to stop, and then told me to go ahead, and first after I had nagged for some time did they admit they wanted to change position to bring discomfortlevels down.

    But yes, it seems that a major reason for his acting in the video (apart from egoistic sexuality and perhaps a dominancefetish that gets out in the wrong way) seems to be "heat of the moment". That doesn't excuse it, though.
     
  4. AdaramC

    AdaramC New Member

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    interesting topic. All that I can come up with nothing is black and white. There's a whole lot of gray and this is just one of those issues. I use to be hurt all the time when I was with my ex. and I knew it was important to him so I just went with it the best I could. It was less about me getting hurt, and more about my compassion with his needs, and it that instance, my pain just didn't seem as important. it's situational I guess.
     
  5. erratic

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    I'm with you, OP. People stretching their limits (pardon the pun) can be pretty fucking hot, yet there comes a point when it goes past that. I haven't watched the video you linked to because I don't want to. I've seen videos like you've described, and they leave me feeling that the person taking the dick would never do it if there weren't money involved. The passion's gone; my disbelief is no longer suspended. At that point it is, at best, ugly fucking; at worst, it's abuse. Either way, it ain't right by me.
     
  6. Incocknito

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    I wouldn't say that it was too big for the woman in that clip. She seemed to be able to take it.

    I have had sex where the woman (girl really - 18+) could not take me. Literally I could not get my penis inside her and it was really tight. I think she had vaginismus or something. That is a case where I would say a cock was too big for someone. Although maybe the possible vaginismus is mitigating circumstance...

    Anyway if someone wants you to stop, they will (or should) ask you to stop. Up until that point, anything goes. Plus some women liked to be fucked hard with a blatant disregard for safety/furniture.
     
  7. Bbucko

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    There is no such thing as implied consent IMO: either we work within the discussed parameters of our abilities or else we stop. As a non-versatile top, and as a Dom, it's imperative to me that limits and repertoires are discussed explicitly and in detail before any play commences. I actually only have two limits that I bring to the play: consent and scat.

    Of course, consent is a large umbrella: under it sits a broad range of explicitly required things. He's gotta be HIV+; he's gotta understand that I need someone who is submissive but not dead-weight passive; he needs to be open about his limits and expectations (as I am about mine). If he feels like he needs a safe word, I let him choose it with the expectation that either he'll use it or else get off the bed (or wherever it is we're playing). As I'm not a big fan of bondage (renders the sub too passive, IMO), I rarely bother with safe words, myself, and only honor them if insisted upon.

    Because of the nature of most of the extreme play that I do, I require full and constant consent. This idea of just winging it and qualifying as we go along just doesn't cut it the way I play: he could get seriously hurt.

    My first partner, with whom I lived for about four months when I was just 18, brutalized me almost every night. I know what it feels like to be sexually assaulted by someone who claimed to love me; I thought that I'd adjust and learn to like it because I was a stupid, naive kid. Since ending that relationship well before my 19th birthday, I haven't been penetrated consensually again, and never will.

    One last thing, about the porn posted in the OP: porn is fake. The actions are real (ie: not CG), but the situations, personalities and emotional (as well as physical) responses are planned. They are usually improvised, but that doesn't make what you see any less orchestrated as a result. Porn is about fantasy. Some sociopaths enjoy seeing sex depicted in a way that is either borderline non-consensual or else appears that way outright; there's a market for that sort of stuff. The woman is being paid not just to fuck on camera, but to emote in whatever way she's told to by the producers/director. The same thing applies to those disgusting anal "accident" scenes (when it appears that the wash-out wasn't sufficient) or those silly "accidental" creampies: fake, fake, fake.
     
  8. D_Rosalind Mussell

    D_Rosalind Mussell New Member

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    I'm sorry, but the lines of consent are black and white here. Once the words "stop" passed her lips consent was instantly retracted.

    There is no gray area here.

    I watched a small bit of the vid and that woman wanted him to stop. She looked afraid and overwhelmed. If she was putting on a show for the camera and faking that she wanted him to stop she would have kept facing the camera. As it were, she turned away into the fetal position.

    Bbucko, I love you but I'm angry at your implication that the woman's pleas in the porn clip were fake. While it obviously started out consenting, this woman started feeling pain and wanted him to stop. He didn't and that's when it became assault. Again, I love you Bbuck, but it hurt my heart to read this.

    Incocknito, you're insensitivity and misogyny are off the charts. Do the world of women a favor and stick with fleshlights and pocket pussies.

    This is the type of shit that puts me off this place. There are some good folk here but there is too much misogyny, even unwitting or unintended.

    "I wouldn't say that it was too big for the woman in that clip. She seemed to be able to take it."

    Bend over, let's see how you do with it. Otherwise you can fuck right off.


    "They are usually improvised, but that doesn't make what you see any less orchestrated as a result."

    It doesn't make it less real either. What would it take for you to believe it's real?

    "The woman is being paid not just to fuck on camera, but to emote in whatever way she's told to by the producers/directors."

    Do you really think they would ask her to turn away and shield her body in the fetal position? Covering up body parts never has been porn's selling point.


    Sexual Misconduct Prevention and Response Taskforce - Sexual Consent
     
  9. dolfette

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    the normalising and eroticising of reluctance and pain is dangerous, imo.
    this isn't the bdsm kink thing.
    this is glamorising abuse.

    what messages does it send out?
     
  10. LaFemme

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    There are times in porn when women get set up, something changes mid-scene so the director's can get a "real" reaction. While it might not be common, it does happen. The actresses rarely complain because they don't want to be known as difficult and besides, "hey, you got your money".

    And I agree with dolf on this - normalizing pain & reluctance is dangerous. When I say 'no' or 'stop', I mean 'no' or 'stop'. I don't need a safe word. I better be safe without one.
     
  11. D_GlennFeckless

    D_GlennFeckless Account Disabled

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    "Stop please, it's really hurting me", then hiding her face is not in any way implicit consent. She said stop, he didn't. That's rape whether on camera or off.

    I personally couldn't stay hard after hearing that, unless, of course, I didn't give a shit about my partner, no, victim, and was all about self-aggrandizement through overpowering a smaller, weaker target. Whee - I have a bigger dick than you can take and that makes me important.

    Sort of like kicking puppies.
     
  12. dolfette

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    i'm so not clicking the link.
     
  13. B_duanculo

    B_duanculo New Member

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    well it's not a virus and it really isn't anywhere as bad as the OP may have made it sound


    personally, she NEVER says to stop (at least i never heard her whisper that). yes she is in pain (though at times it;s questionable how much), and i'm not sure if she is being paid or this is a real couple but she has a mouth, if she wants him to stop she should have said so. complain if she did tell him and he continued. it's a good issue to bring up, especially in scenarios such as porn scenes by companies that actually really roughly throat fuck and abuse women in their videos such as

    Very rough deepthroat throat fucking - XVIDEOS.COM

    but i don't think we can technically call it abuse in the OP's video because she never tells him to stop.
     
  14. dolfette

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    that's not a blanket rule i agree with.
     
  15. B_duanculo

    B_duanculo New Member

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    i believe in private, there should be nothing holding her back from voicing her displeasure. i would think in situations such as porn movies where the actress is being paid and hence possibly feels forced to continue even though clearly not game (eg. the video i posted) then that, for me, is more where the issue of abuse lies as they would likely feel obligated to continue with a scene they aren't comfortable doing. any private couple should have open communication and she should be able to voice her discomfort with continuing with little problem. if she can;t then maybe she has a rapist on her hands
     
  16. D_Rosalind Mussell

    D_Rosalind Mussell New Member

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    While it's not a virus, your assessment of the situation is rubbish.



    She said it 3 times

    1:50
    2:05
    2:55

    The fact that she told him he was hurting her 3 times made it patently clear how much pain she was in. Not questionable at all.
     
  17. Gecko4lif

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    First time she said stop
    2nd time she said it hurts
    3rd time she said please cum


    Missed that the first watch through.

    Hmm. Does seema bit rapey.
     
  18. MoociMan

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    Duanculo, have you thought about the fact that people might not know what to do in the situation? Yes, she might have had the oppetunity to get mad and stand up, but there is so much going on in such a situation. There can be internal obstacles to acting freely. You have a very naive conception of cohercion IMO. But you are entitled to your opinion. I just believe the video is documentation of a case where rape is occuring despite the situation being not very rapey in the traditional sense (dark alley style rape). I believe most rapes occur like this. It is good you voice your opinion, though, since the discussion is precisely to pinpoint the concept of rape and get some nuances on our understanding of sexual consent.
     
  19. B_duanculo

    B_duanculo New Member

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    agreed she may not know and i'm not trying to say she "deserved" it for not being defiant in making him stop. but are you going to blame the guy for continuing? my thing is you cannot just lie there and take it or make weak attempts at having him stop. stand up, be strong, kick him in the nuts if you have to to have him get the point. no woman should be raped or forced to have sex against her will ... NO WOMAN (or man) so if she is uncomfortable tell that mofo to get the fuck off of you. Yes. not everyone will speak out when they are in an uncomfortable situation but if you don't, who will? it's a cold world, and if you let it be ok for him to continue if you're really not up to it then something is not right with how much you respect yourself.

    sure some will liken this to women who are physically abused and i say the same thing. if you have someone who is laying their hands on you, then by gosh don't sit there and take it (unless you know for sure going to the authorities will not help eg. if he is of high status), let them cuff and arrest his ass and let the prison showers exact some retribution on him.

    i don't know, maybe i'm an 'extremist' or too heartless i don't know, but people got to stand up for themselves and not allow people to walk over them.

    for me, personally, this is more abuse than the scene the OP posted
    Very rough deepthroat throat fucking - XVIDEOS.COM

    and for me, i apply the same logic, here you are with men blatantly slapping and disrespecting you, yet you still go on with the scene ... should i feel sorry for you? no, i mean it's VERY harsh and over the top treatment but ultimately you made the decision to sit there and let them treat you so disgracefully and film it. despite what they have paid her, by gosh give them back the money and walk out if you disagree with the level of abuse. otherwise, if you stay, i see it as a conscious decision to endure whatever they dish out and i find it hard to feel sorry. and no, i do not believe she HAS TO stay, many people (especially feminists) will have you believe porn stars are forced into the biz and blah blah blah. they made a conscious decision to enter and she is making a conscious decision to stay during this scene.


    so forgive me for being the antagonist in this thread but that is my stance.
     
  20. dolfette

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    i have no response to that much judgemental stupidity.