"Straight Acting Men" ???????????????????

bigbadger

Expert Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2006
Posts
249
Media
4
Likes
132
Points
173
Location
wisconsin
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
^So in other words your saying (and assuming) that any and every "straight-acting" gay male is a closeted, self-loathing, hateful, homophobic person? I call 100% bull-shit on that.

That is no less ignorant or awful than the straight homophobic people who make wide-spread, blanket generalizations about gay people. Or that is no less bull shit than if I claimed all "non straight-acting" gay people must be old, catty, prissy, effeminate queens who drink martinis, go to musicals, and march in pride parades.

Again, I do not understand or get many in the gay communities need to attack or put each other down. Somehow my experience or life as a gay man is less pertinent or valid because I happen to be into some of the same things you would normally identify with a straight male? Again 100% bull shit.

I will never understand or get the attitude of "I'm gayer than you are" in the gay community that people often use to validate or comfort themselves with. You can think or claim I am a "special snowflake" but at the end of the day I am still denied the same rights as you are and still fight for the same rights as you do.

And sadly the gay community will probably not win those rights that we so covet as we are too busy tearing each other down over silly shit like who is "straight acting" and who is effeminate.
 
D

deleted235425

Guest
Actually straight guys have feminine qualities too. The arts have many many many straight guys that dance, wear makeup, do costumes, etc, and what I mentioned is normally considered feminine. The posts that state "Straight Acting" also stereotypes straights. So do those guys in those ads weight-lift 3,000 lbs and grunt and eat raw meat and use their teeth to open bottles? Do they all want to be In The Strongest Man competitions? I do know know some actors started acting to meet women.
Yup, I had a reason for posting this question. I wanted to put this out there.
 
  • Like
Reactions: alcor972

dylz

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Feb 13, 2007
Posts
1,138
Media
40
Likes
3,729
Points
543
Location
United States
Verification
View
Sexuality
80% Gay, 20% Straight
Gender
Male
^So in other words your saying (and assuming) that any and every "straight-acting" gay male is a closeted, self-loathing, hateful, homophobic person? I call 100% bull-shit on that.

uh... no. how about instead of trying to rephrase what you think i meant "in other words" with some patent nonsense, you instead try reading and understanding what i *actually* wrote? because i meant no more and no less than what i wrote.

the phrase "straight-acting" makes absolutely no logical sense unless the homophobic idea that straight people all act one way and gay people all act another is invoked. it's therefore not an exaggeration in the slightest to call it a homophobic term. however, that does not mean the people who self-identify as straight-acting are self-loathing, hateful, or homophobic as you seem to think i implied. more often, they haven't thought very deeply about what the term actually means and may not recognize its intrinsic homophobia. nevertheless, their continued use of the term still reinforces the harmful homophobic stereotypes underlying it, which is why i continue to be critical of the term and point out why it is homophobic.

gay men who identify as "straight-acting" also tend to benefit from that self-identification. in the eyes of homophobic straight people, such men are worthy of more respect because they fit in better, won't make as much noise or demand as much change for their accommodation. in the eyes of other "straight-acting" gays, that identification is an assurance he's an acceptable partner who isn't as likely to upset the sensibilities of straight peers and family. they benefit from identifying themselves with the term WHETHER OR NOT they understand or agree with the homophobic assumptions underlying it. that is the nature of the so-called "internalized homophobia" that other posters have been referring to: it is expressed by the people it harms most (gay people) in a manner that is rarely overtly or intentionally hateful, and yet it continues to perpetuate, in very significant ways, the same stereotypes straight people have used to harm us ever since gayness emerged as a prominent identity.

That is no less ignorant or awful than the straight homophobic people who make wide-spread, blanket generalizations about gay people. Or that is no less bull shit than if I claimed all "non straight-acting" gay people must be old, catty, prissy, effeminate queens who drink martinis, go to musicals, and march in pride parades.

i actually don't feel i really need to respond to this considering you read so much nonsense into my previous post, but... no. even if i were saying what you apparently thought i was saying, this paragraph wouldn't be true either. stereotypes about gay people (the ones about "non-straight-acting" gays you referred to) have been used by straight people for decades in a manner that ends up marginalizing and hurting ALL gay people, no matter how obviously gay they are. stated more plainly, using those stereotypes upholds homophobia.

in the reverse situation, even if i WERE actually making up broad and ridiculous stereotypes about straight people and gay men who "pass" (or try to pass) as straight, this wouldn't be upholding oppressive "reverse homophobic" ideology, because such ideology literally does not exist in ANY modern society, much less the united states.

Again, I do not understand or get many in the gay communities need to attack or put each other down. Somehow my experience or life as a gay man is less pertinent or valid because I happen to be into some of the same things you would normally identify with a straight male? Again 100% bull shit.

I will never understand or get the attitude of "I'm gayer than you are" in the gay community that people often use to validate or comfort themselves with. You can think or claim I am a "special snowflake" but at the end of the day I am still denied the same rights as you are and still fight for the same rights as you do.

And sadly the gay community will probably not win those rights that we so covet as we are too busy tearing each other down over silly shit like who is "straight acting" and who is effeminate.

i fail to see where anyone in this thread has been supposedly "attacking" anyone else. all i see are frank descriptions of homophobia and internalized homophobia from some posters, and a little bit of whining about how mean it is to examine homophobia for what it is from some others. examining homophobic language and pointing out why it's homophobic in hopes that others might stop using it isn't threatening our rights as much as leaving it unquestioned would be. at the end of the day, as unfair as it is, whether we get the rights to which we are entitled depends on straight people learning to accept all of us, not just those of us who will help them feel reassured that homophobia didn't really harm us that much and that we aren't really different from them.

i don't think i'm gayer than you are or that that would make my views on gayness more valid than yours. as far as i'm concerned discussions like these are necessary, even if they are not easy. if you don't remember me from some of our private chats, i enjoy talking to you quite a bit and have lots of respect for you. this exchange doesn't change my respect for you at all.

i hope that clears things up. if not let me know and i'll try again. i also recommend reading a book about gay history, since that would illustrate quite clearly how homophobia and internalized homophobia have worked over the decades.
 
Last edited:

bigbadger

Expert Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2006
Posts
249
Media
4
Likes
132
Points
173
Location
wisconsin
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
You make a valid point readheadinsf. My original point in my first post was mostly the fact it is dangerous (and usually incorrect) to make blanket statements about any one group or type of person.

So to assume all gay men who self-identify" as "straight acting" are homophobic, self loathing, and insecure is wrong. Just as it would be wrong to make a blanket statement about all effeminate or non straight acting gay men as well.

It is also wrong and rather ignorant to assume that any gay person who self identifies as straight acting has somehow had it easier because of that. To try and invalidate their lives or experiences is wrong as well.

But again, I do not understand the gay communities need or desire to put labels on each other and judge each other based off of those labels.
 
Last edited:

dylz

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Feb 13, 2007
Posts
1,138
Media
40
Likes
3,729
Points
543
Location
United States
Verification
View
Sexuality
80% Gay, 20% Straight
Gender
Male
you've restated everything from your previous post, just in fewer words. if you want to continue to see necessary discussions of internalized homophobia as hateful stereotyping tirades against those who might suffer the most under it, fine. no skin off my ass.
 

erratic

Loved Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Posts
4,289
Media
0
Likes
509
Points
333
Sexuality
No Response
Yes, the concept of "straight acting" can be kind of silly, but if someone has a preference for more masculine acting guys then good for them. And if someone prefers a more effeminate guy, then good for them as well.

Yes, and I would argue there's an important difference between people who use the term "straight acting" and guys who like more stereotypically masculine acting men. The former are perpetuating (and, I would bet, have internalized) the stereotype that straight men are more masculine and other men are less so. That's homophobic.

Men who are attracted to men who act in stereotypically masculine ways are attracted to what they're attracted to. No problem there.

But, again, the term "straight acting" assumes that straight men are the most masculine (inherently bullshit), and that being not-straight therefore isn't masculine - also bullshit. It's not Westboro Baptist Church tier homophobia, but it's still homophobia.

P.S. to Dylz: You're doing a great job here fighting the good fight. Thanks.
 

bigbadger

Expert Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2006
Posts
249
Media
4
Likes
132
Points
173
Location
wisconsin
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
you've restated everything from your previous post, just in fewer words. if you want to continue to see necessary discussions of internalized homophobia as hateful stereotyping tirades against those who might suffer the most under it, fine. no skin off my ass.

I was actually agreeing with and responding to readheadinsf post, but I guess I can take time to respond to your post as well.

Just so you know, I am not ignorant, stupid, or misinformed, as you so clearly and strongly imply and stated. I am well aware of the history (at least modern gay history post 1969) and well aware of what homophobia and self-internalized homophobia are. So thank you for trying to tell me that I am not.

I will again state that I am neither self-loathing, hateful, homophobic, or an asshole just because I happen to be more on the masculine "straight acting" side of the gay community. My demeanor and behavior are not to appease the straight community. Neither am I silent or a pushover when it comes to gay issues just because I happen to be more on the "straight acting" side of the gay community.

I actually do not consider myself to be "straight acting" as I find it a silly term and try not to label myself too much. But if you want to know why I consider myself more on the masculine, "straight acting" side of the gay community, its because there is no where else for me to self identify in the gay community. I certainly do not fit in with the stereotypical popularized version of what a gay man is supposed to be, so that leaves me little choice of where I fit in the gay community.

What else would you call or consider a guy who is into the things most typically associated with straight men (like beer, sports, rock n' roll, etc.)? Would the term masculine, bro, dude, or buddy be better?

The above is why I tend to pursue men who exhibit those "straight acting" qualities.
I do not choose to pursue men in the "straight acting" category because of the privilege and acceptance it may afford me or them. And I can promise you that despite my outwards "straight" demeanor and disposition, my life is neither charmed or extra special. Chances are I have the same problems and concerns any gay person has, "straight acting" or effeminate. I still went through the same difficulties with coming out, meeting men, and self acceptance that any gay person goes through. The way I acted or things I enjoyed doing had nothing to do with that.

My main objection is not your claims of the fact that the term is offensive, degrading, or dangerous (as you claim it is) my objection is to the fact a couple people here, including you, are assuming that anyone who identifies that way or uses that term is somehow closeted, self-loathing, homophobic or assholes. Or ignorant, uneducated and misinformed. Or somehow harming the gay community by using that terminology.

Yes some of the people who use that term are those qualities. But I'm sure some men (like me) who use that terminology do so because there really is not a better way to express those specific qualities they desire.
 
Last edited:

bigbadger

Expert Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2006
Posts
249
Media
4
Likes
132
Points
173
Location
wisconsin
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
Yes, and I would argue there's an important difference between people who use the term "straight acting" and guys who like more stereotypically masculine acting men. The former are perpetuating (and, I would bet, have internalized) the stereotype that straight men are more masculine and other men are less so. That's homophobic.

Men who are attracted to men who act in stereotypically masculine ways are attracted to what they're attracted to. No problem there.

But, again, the term "straight acting" assumes that straight men are the most masculine (inherently bullshit), and that being not-straight therefore isn't masculine - also bullshit. It's not Westboro Baptist Church tier homophobia, but it's still homophobia.

P.S. to Dylz: You're doing a great job here fighting the good fight. Thanks.

So if the term "straight acting" is now off limits and inappropriate to use as a gay man, then what term would you recommend we use from now on?

Does the term "masculine" suffice or is that also considered offensive and homophobic to those who are not that way? I am sure if we try hard enough we can find something offensive about whatever term we come up with, which is always the problem with censorship.

While I do not use the term "straight acting" when trying to meet men, it actually pretty much encompasses what I am looking for. Or pretty much implies someone who is a regular, down-to earth, guys guy. Besides straight acting or masculine, I am at a loss for a shorthand way to express/say the above qualities I am looking for in a partner.

What new term would you recommend using? Masculine seems okay to me, but I would be interested to hear your thoughts.

Oh and your welcome redheadinsf.
 

dylz

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Feb 13, 2007
Posts
1,138
Media
40
Likes
3,729
Points
543
Location
United States
Verification
View
Sexuality
80% Gay, 20% Straight
Gender
Male
bigbadger, i read your post before you edited it to specify that it was directed toward redheadinsf. apologies for assuming it was directed at my reply.

i'd like you to understand that i don't see you as stupid, misinformed, ignorant or hateful. i also don't see men who self-identify as straight-acting as such either, contrary to your assertions that i do. in my previous posts i described how the homophobia inherent in the term straight-acting can easily be (and most often is) perpetuated without ANY ill intention towards other, more effeminate or 'obvious' gay men. others in this thread, particularly erratic, have pointed out the same.

i nevertheless believe the continued and uncritical use of the term IS harmful to gay men, ESPECIALLY to the more masculine men who tend to identify with it and use it. as you point out in your post, gay men toward that masculine end of the spectrum of behavior (including you) tend to feel especially isolated, as though there is no place for them in the visible gay community. one of the results of homophobia is that gay men of all types start believing the hype about how we're so radically and fundamentally different from straight people; and as a result, the most obviously different gay men become representative of the entire (diverse!) gay population in the eyes of mainstream straight society, and even to an extent in our own eyes.

none of that stuff is patently obvious. it's no surprise, then, that many very intelligent and educated men have described themselves as "straight-acting" without realizing that the term perpetuates a harmful stereotype.

expressing a preference for what kind of men you like is absolutely fine. if you like masculine men, that's fine too; you're in good company. but when expressing that preference, why not just call such men what they are, which is "masculine"? why instead wrap it up in the homophobic idea that we are all radically different from straight people by using the term "straight-acting"? we are only isolating ourselves even more by doing so, and it takes almost zero effort to say "masculine" instead.

finally, i'd like to make sure you know that my disagreements with you thus far are not attacks on your character or intellect. if you are going to continue ignoring the content of my posts by viewing them as such, this conversation will not be productive for anyone. similarly it is misguided to claim that i and others like me who point out the homophobic aspects of the term are "trying hard to find something offensive" in it, or trying to "censor" those who use it. believe it or not, it's not a game we play to think of ourselves as high and mighty, and voicing some minor disagreements with your opinions is not to hope that you will stop expressing them or your preferences.

EDIT: the one exception was in my very first post in this thread, in which i did strongly imply that men who call themselves straight-acting are "dumb". i apologize for that; it was careless, ill-tempered and frankly rather mean.
 
Last edited:

dong-in-khakis

Cherished Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Posts
1,646
Media
0
Likes
496
Points
208
Location
southern USA
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
preference, what's wrong with it?

Why is the term straight acting so offensive to some? There really are a lot of gay men who you'd not thing were gay by an outward appearance. And yes, many (I'm sure) of the straight acting really have accepted internally they're gay.
 

dylz

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Feb 13, 2007
Posts
1,138
Media
40
Likes
3,729
Points
543
Location
United States
Verification
View
Sexuality
80% Gay, 20% Straight
Gender
Male
no one in this thread has objected to people's preferences. some including myself have, however, objected to preference for masculinity being stated using words that are harmful and homophobic. if you don't understand why the term "straight-acting" being used as a surrogate for "masculine" is (yes, mostly unintentionally) homophobic, feel free to read any of the many posts explaining why earlier in the thread.
 

LeftCoast

Legendary Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Posts
1,342
Media
7
Likes
1,419
Points
368
Location
NorCal
Verification
View
Sexuality
99% Gay, 1% Straight
Gender
Male
I have to agree with dong-in-khakis (love the name, by the way). When someone is placing a personal ad it's their fantasy they're looking to fulfill. Perhaps "masculine" would be more politically correct, but "straight acting" is still better than "no fems." It's unfortunate that some people may be offended, but some people are no doubt offended by the idea of advertising for a date anyway. I don't find it homophobic at all.
 
D

deleted235425

Guest
It also stereotypes straight men too.
 

mikefole9

Loved Member
Joined
May 5, 2007
Posts
109
Media
8
Likes
749
Points
498
Location
los angeles
Sexuality
60% Gay, 40% Straight
Gender
Male
Hey guys... great thread. I want to weigh in. My profile reads: Naturally masculine. "Straight acting" by definition means one is "acting" and we all know guys that are not authentic. I am in the middle on the Kinsey Scale but prefer men so I identify only with gay sex. (if women were into sport fucking, that might be different)

I do not know fashion, musical theater, old movies with Betty Davis, Golden Girls or home decor and my friends tease all the time. My perception has been that I feel shunned and clueless at times so loving sports and being clueless with gay sensibilities is not all that great.
 
D

deleted235425

Guest
Since I started this thread, mikefole9, thanks!
And I know about Old Movies and Sports.
 

dong-in-khakis

Cherished Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Posts
1,646
Media
0
Likes
496
Points
208
Location
southern USA
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
I see now where the term "str8 acting" could be taken offensively. I never meant it that way but now I see. Once in a post I referred to myself as masculine and remember a guy responded and was offended.

Enjoyed reading the responses.
 
D

deleted235425

Guest
Thank you too, dong-in-khakis. Glad to see that this post has helped understanding of others reactions to the term
 
  • Like
Reactions: alcor972

bigbadger

Expert Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2006
Posts
249
Media
4
Likes
132
Points
173
Location
wisconsin
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
Hey guys... great thread. I want to weigh in. My profile reads: Naturally masculine. "Straight acting" by definition means one is "acting" and we all know guys that are not authentic. I am in the middle on the Kinsey Scale but prefer men so I identify only with gay sex. (if women were into sport fucking, that might be different)

I do not know fashion, musical theater, old movies with Betty Davis, Golden Girls or home decor and my friends tease all the time. My perception has been that I feel shunned and clueless at times so loving sports and being clueless with gay sensibilities is not all that great.

I hear you loud and clear on that mikefole9. Although being gay, I am not into musical theatre, go to many gay bars, enjoy blaring loud dance music, drink martinis, or worship at the throne of such gay icons as Betty Davis, Judy Garland, Barbara Streisand, Cher, or Madonna. Considering all that, I often feel like an oddity amongst the gay community. I agree with you, being in that position is not all that great.

Sometimes I wish I was more like a Kurt Hummel from Glee (obviously gay and very effeminate) as it might make my experiences dating and making friends in the gay community easier.

I can live with the homophobia and disdain from straight people from time to time, but feeling like a pariah in the gay community is almost worse.

I am sure many people who define themselves as masculine or "straight-acting" are not doing so to be homophobic or hurtful towards the gay community. I am sure many of them use those terms for the simple fact they are into the same things mostly associated with straight men. At least that is why I have used the term in the past.

I cannot help but feel some people here are trying to assign more importance and meaning to the term than what there actually is. Or maybe it is just a simple term trying to indicate the type guy you may be into and the type things you enjoy.
 
Last edited: