UK general election May 2015

[dandelion]

well it would have worked with

lord grant that milliband,
may by thy mighty hand,.....

 

[dandelion]

news today seemed to be dominated by a story that the government hs cancelled various railway improvement schemes costing billions. That probably isnt surprising, since they are seeking to cut spending, but the issue seems to be this is rather the reversal of their position during the election campaign. Oh dear.

 

[dandelion]

latest election news: the chancellor has been working on his post election budget.

he plans to stop BBC internet broadcast being free and impose licensing charges for watching there, and in return plans to stop paying the BBC for the concessionary free licenses for over 75's. In effect, he plans a new tax on the internet!

 

[dandelion]

Today we had a budget, which in some ways might be described as a masterful post script to the elections campaign.

Having spent the campaign attacking labour and the liberals for being too free with public money, the Chancellor now has rolled back on his promises and has made far fewer cuts than he had claimed was necessary. Just what he did last time.

Danny alexander, liberal, said the chancellor had stolen some liberal policies which the conservatives had refused to implement in coalition.

But although it would have to be described as an austerity budget, the chancellor seems to be improving with experience, at least with his presentation and spin.

 

[rbkwp]

dat dang Country still afloat Dands

tort it weny under at election time, in sympathy with Greece
or overloaded with the freeloading Calai to Dover trucker immigrants ..

 

[dandelion]

Nope, news today called George osborne the red chancellor. saved by a sinner repentant.

 

[rbkwp]

Ashes Lords

Australia declare @ 508

England are Fckd

11-45p NZT

Camerons fault'
cant find the Ashes thread'

Australia declare, setting England imposing target of 509 at Lord's

Join Alan Tyers as Australia lose two wickets in morning session but declare before lunch with comfortable lead

 

[jaap_stam]

What does it mean to declare in cricket?

 

[rbkwp]

What does it mean to declare in cricket?


in my simple terms/sporty thinking ha
the teams captain has decided his team virtually has an unassailable lead on the opposition,
so he declares there leading margin/usually to the head umpire,,and hopefully the opposing team dont get anywhere near it ..
in this case/England only got 93 i think, so Au won by a very big margin

i wonder if someone like .....
. will now say please leave sex and religion plus sport, out of politics duh ha'
dead thread notwithstanding

 

[Jason]

The Labour party is going through a long process to find its next leader. The polls (which may well be wrong of course) are showing a big lead for Jeremy Corbyn. It is possible that he will win, and in 2020 (at the age of 71) be fighting an election to become PM.

He is a loony left winger who believes in fantasy economics and the politics of envy. He's way to the left of Ed Miliband and in some ways comparable with Michael Foot. He supports Sinn Fein and Argentina's illegal claim to the Falkland Islands. There is the idea that the Conservatives would think Christmas had come early if Corbyn becomes Labour leader. The idea is that the Labour party would split and anyway such an extreme party could never be elected. However the idea of this dangerous man as candidate for PM strikes me as pretty frightening.

 

[dandelion]

sounds like you are running scared jason, or you wouldnt be working so hard to trash him. Its just possible that someone who seriously stood up for the left for a change, just could win.

 

[Jason]

The mantra people keep repeating is that only a centrist figure can win. We have Blair on Labour's right flank (the closet Thatcherite) and Cameron on the Conservatives' left flank (the closet Blairite). Brown (a bit further from the centre than Blair) didn't win in 2010. Miliband (still further to the left) did even worse in 2015. However I'm not sure that I believe the mantra. Margaret Thatcher was to the right of many in her party, but she won. Wilson and Callaghan were way to the left but had their wins. The extremes can win. We've certainly seen just this in Greece.

Fast forward to 2020. Corbyn is spouting economic illiteracy about some ill-defined other who is responsible for everything wrong in your life including the weather. Maybe the government has suffered from events - stuff happens. The British electorate vote for Corbyn. Well that's democracy of course, but it would be a return to the 1970s. I know there's the idea that Corbyn would destroy Labour, but I really can't get excited about the idea of Corbyn as leader. One scenario is that he moves the party to the left then stands down a year before the election to allow some charismatic firebrand to lead, someone who really does get elected.

My personal view is that old-fashioned socialism is now beyond the pale as a political doctrine. The hope is that Labour never ever again gets elected. Corbyn offers both the prospect of a Labour split (SDP all over again) and the prospect of the hard left actually getting into government again - and the hard left in government would lead to broken lives and maximum human misery, particularly for the poorest in society.

 

[dandelion]

Brown (a bit further from the centre than Blair) didn't win in 2010.

had he not been recorded saying that voter was a complete idiot, he might have won. Dont think it had anything whatever to do with his personal politics. Similarly, Blair lost millions of votes across the parliaments he did win without any perceptible move left. He lost it on the traditionally right wing policy of invading someone country. Wonder if Camerons sending troops into war...

Miliband (still further to the left) did even worse in 2015.

Except he was not on the left, and was standing on a program of being more pro-austerity than the conservatives!

However I'm not sure that I believe the mantra. Margaret Thatcher was to the right of many in her party, but she won.

Yes. And the conclusion I draw is that it isnt the politics at all but the personality, character and spun image of the leader.

Maybe the government has suffered from events - stuff happens. The British electorate vote for Corbyn. Well that's democracy of course, but it would be a return to the 1970s.

you know, the mists of history hide much, but I'm not at all sure Corbyn might not be placed right of Thatcher, given the huge shifts we have seen in politics since that time.

I know there's the idea that Corbyn would destroy Labour, but I really can't get excited about the idea of Corbyn as leader.

can't you? he looks very kindly grandfather to me. That could be a real winner.

My personal view is that old-fashioned socialism is now beyond the pale as a political doctrine.

I know. And the the entire propaganda department of the conservative party is seeking to keep it that way, bcause they are in reality pretty extreme right wing. Though right and left do not cover it. better to say, party of the rich vs. party of the poor. And the middle classes lie in the group called 'poor'.

The hope is that Labour never ever again gets elected.

You are hoping for a UKIP victory, or maybe scots nats coming south of the border?

 

[Jason]

had he not been recorded saying that voter was a complete idiot, he might have won. Dont think it had anything whatever to do with his personal politics. Similarly, Blair lost millions of votes across the parliaments he did win without any perceptible move left. He lost it on the traditionally right wing policy of invading someone country. Wonder if Camerons sending troops into war...

Except he was not on the left, and was standing on a program of being more pro-austerity than the conservatives!

Yes. And the conclusion I draw is that it isnt the politics at all but the personality, character and spun image of the leader.

you know, the mists of history hide much, but I'm not at all sure Corbyn might not be placed right of Thatcher, given the huge shifts we have seen in politics since that time.

can't you? he looks very kindly grandfather to me. That could be a real winner.

I know. And the the entire propaganda department of the conservative party is seeking to keep it that way, bcause they are in reality pretty extreme right wing. Though right and left do not cover it. better to say, party of the rich vs. party of the poor. And the middle classes lie in the group called 'poor'.

You are hoping for a UKIP victory, or maybe scots nats coming south of the border?

Dandelion, I'm suggesting that the mantra that only a centrist politician can win a UK general election is wrong, or at least too simple. I think you are agreeing this.

However traditional socialism was tried to destruction in the twentieth century, and indeed continues to be tried in Greece, China and Scotland. It will always fail. I suppose my dream scenario would be a Labour split. Not a centrist splinter like the SDP but a real split with half or more of the party embracing an enhanced Blairite position which includes a renunciation of socialism. Maybe such a group could work with the Lib Dems. Alternatively I think there is a new party for the aspirational working class in UKIP. Yes we need two party politics, but my personal view is that any party embracing socialism is not fit to govern. I therefore need to find an alternative to Conservatism.

 

[desilover]

An evil party due to iraq. They can select Corbyun and face a decade or more out of power. Any party once led by Iraq invaders deserves Opposition... And why is it Obama's issue if we leave the UK? Global influence is overrated. Even as a periphary EU member, we're still a very wealthy country in world terms. and peaceful by and large. imho, this is all that matters.

 

[desilover]

Dandelion, I'm suggesting that the mantra that only a centrist politician can win a UK general election is wrong, or at least too simple. I think you are agreeing this.

However traditional socialism was tried to destruction in the twentieth century, and indeed continues to be tried in Greece, China and Scotland. It will always fail. I suppose my dream scenario would be a Labour split. Not a centrist splinter like the SDP but a real split with half or more of the party embracing an enhanced Blairite position which includes a renunciation of socialism. Maybe such a group could work with the Lib Dems. Alternatively I think there is a new party for the aspirational working class in UKIP. Yes we need two party politics, but my personal view is that any party embracing socialism is not fit to govern. I therefore need to find an alternative to Conservatism.

I don't agree. I there is no real need to change nor alter Thatcherism. That is allow wider trade union powers, renationalise industries, etc. This would actually damage the country economically, and not really advisable. Democratic socialism per Old Labour/Attlee/Wilson is gone, it cannot work in the contemporary world.

 

[Jason]

Labour and Blair have to take much blame for the second Iraq war, which was surely illegal. However the electorate didn't punish Labour - they won a subsequent election and won it well.

Of course the UK needs Conservative government. It also needs an opposition. The threat we now face is of a Corbyn-led Labour party reasserting the lies of socialism. Of course I hope that such a party would never be elected, but look at Scotland where all but three MPs are from the hard-left SNP. The hope is that Corbyn would split Labour or render them unelectable (or both!) but the fear is that he might just win. The misery socialism brings to everyone (particularly the poor) is such that it should be condemned utterly, yet it also brings the lie: someone else is responsible for everything that is wrong in your life, so vote socialist to make them pay.

 

[dandelion]

Dandelion, I'm suggesting that the mantra that only a centrist politician can win a UK general election is wrong, or at least too simple. I think you are agreeing this.

Then I did misunderstand, and would agree. whats more, I would agree with likely more than half Cameron's budget dispositions, but then so would Milliband. The areas of agreement far outweigh the disagreement. I think the problems the labour party faces have far more to do with disunity than whether it is a bit more left or a bit more right.

However traditional socialism was tried to destruction in the twentieth century,

And did a very good job indeed. I doubt I would have liked the alternate world where it did not exist, and nor would the great majority of the population.

... embracing an enhanced Blairite position which includes a renunciation of socialism.

We have argued this before to no avail. The conservatives are a socialist party, never mind Blair.

... but my personal view is that any party embracing socialism is not fit to govern. I therefore need to find an alternative to Conservatism.

hmm.. dont know what that would be. A party for the restoration of the nobility?

..I think there is a new party for the aspirational working class in UKIP.

Except they are a one issue party, and that issue is due for resolution before the next general election.

 

[dandelion]

Labour and Blair have to take much blame for the second Iraq war, which was surely illegal. However the electorate didn't punish Labour - they won a subsequent election and won it well.

Only by comparison with the performance of the conservative party over the last 30 odd years....

The threat we now face is of a Corbyn-led Labour party reasserting the lies of socialism.

If Corbyn could actually get the party to agree with him, they might do quite well.

However Jason, I think there are some fundamental flaws in the way government tax/ benefits spend is operated in this country. I am not sure there is a right answer, the problem seems to stem from wages being too low at the bottom end of the pay spectrum.

There is a housing shortage. Big big problem no politician is interested in.

It seems to me education in the UK is a disaster, and getting worse. private schools in the UK stood in danger of dying out in about the 60-70s. That has completely changed around, and it is because standards in the state sector have tumbled. Schools are now being incentivised to falsify their results. big big problem, no politician is interested in.

No one is proposing solutions to globalisation of big business. big big problem....

 

[Jason]

The problems you set out @dandelion are big ones and I agree no-one seems to be doing much to discuss them, let alone find solutions. However I suggest that traditional socialism cannot possibly be the answer but is instead a dangerous delusion. Traditional socialism (the contrast is with Euro-socialism or New Labour) was tried extensively in the twentieth century (and is still being tried in some nations) and has always failed (no exceptions). Traditional socialism is the doctrine which has produced the greatest quantity of human-created misery: it has the highest body count, and in every single occasion when it has been applied (with no exceptions whatsoever) has made the nation applying it poorer, with all the human unhappiness that results from this. The idea that a Corbyn-led Labour party could spout the policies of traditional socialism is utterly nauseating. It is the politics of envy. It is the cosy lie that anything wrong with a person's life is caused by someone else: "the rich", "the bankers", "the Tories".

I cannot see how politicians like Kendall, Umunna and Blair could stay within a Corbyn-led Labour party.