I don't come here very often any more, because it's honestly just more of a serious drag than it is a resource for fantasy fulfillment.
One thing I notice way too often on threads - and I've touched on this before - are the various inconsistent ways in which people slag off and dismiss models and sex workers.
Most people are just super shitty, but sometimes people hard core trash talk a particular model because of something problematic about that person.
I think problematic behavior should be called out and discussed, and even shamed. For example, Bryan Hawn's overt racism or River Viiperi's patterns of abuse towards women.
But I think it's really problematic to start saying these people are ugly/unattractive or to start picking on their physical appearance as a justification for why people should divest from engaging with/giving money to these people.
How physically attractive they are isn't the issue, is it. Obviously, if your head is on straight, learning something that morally abhorrent about a person is probably going to make you feel repulsed towards them. But that's because of the moral judgement, not because of their appearance. I mean, if that weren't true, would that mean that if you find a person physically attractive, that it doesn't matter what horrible acts they've committed?
If you're going to name and shame people for doing morally and ethically terrible things, keep it in that zone. Don't equate looks with virtue. Like, ever. Not because it hurts people's feelings who maybe thought they were hot, but because it sets a standard where you're culpable in continuing a system where we equate moral inferiority with people who aren't conventionally attractive.
I think people do it because they want to discourage people from coming back with the rejoinder "Well, maybe he beat his girlfriend, but he's still hot!" But look, disagreeing with their assessment of a total creep's physical appearance isn't shutting them down, it's just contradicting them on their own terms. Terms which - in the first place - are super fucked up. It isn't cute or funny to dismiss misogyny and physical abuse on the grounds that the perpetrator might be good looking. Disagreeing with them on how attractive they are is allowing this asshole to side-step the real issue. You're just going along with them and arguing with them on the basis of something totally shallow and subjective. The objective reality is that IT IS WRONG TO BEAT WOMEN. EVEN IF YOU ARE HOT.
Don't say "No, he's ugly," just don't even engage on the topic. You should just be saying "That's a super fucked up thing to say."
I think folks also get tied up in the idea of winning an argument. Look, not everything is a debate. When you shut somebody down for the sake of winning the "argument," you're also kind of validating their point of view as something that's up for debate. If they're saying "Maybe he beat his girlfriend, but you gotta admit it - he's hot!" and you argue that he's not hot...you're sort of agreeing that it's up for debate that someone could be hot enough that it would be okay if they beat their girlfriend. NO! That's not up for debate!
Get okay with just saying what you know is right, having people scream at you, make fun of you, make BS arguments against what you said. Is it more important that you win the argument, or that somebody said what needed to be said?
Yes, sometimes your perspective is off, and maybe somebody should be arguing with you because you thought you knew what was what, but you were wrong. You're just going to have to get better at being self-aware and evaluating these kinds of things.
But if you feel like saying "It is wrong to beat women, and being hot does not justify it at all," has to be backed up with the fact that the person who beat their girlfriend isn't physically attractive...it seems like you have some problems, too.
I think it gets lost a lot, because people come here expecting to talk just about their fantasies and the aesthetics of that realm. That's fine, but you always have to understand that the objects of your desire are real people, and so is everyone else. And for a place where people want to talk about their fantasies...well, there is just way too much mean-spirited shit talk.
You can allow people to have their fantasies and everything, but you can still expect people to be serious about serious issues. Sorry, your sex fantasy needs to take a break when we're talking about racism or physical abuse. If someone informs you that your favorite InstaTHOT has been tweeting super racist shit, how you feel about how hot that person is doesn't have to change. But it damn well better stop being important to you.
If I didn't know anything about Bryan Hawn, never heard of him before, and you showed me a handful of his pictures, sure, I'd say "Yeah, that guy's hot," but if then you told me EVERYTHING else about him, I'd be like "Oh! Fuck that guy!" Would I feel like I did a bad thing for thinking he was hot? No! But the fact that he is hot would be of no importance to me any more. I wouldn't keep talking about it. When the thought popped into my head - disassociated from everything else about him - I'd be like "Oh yeah! That guy sucks hardcore!" and if I needed to keep thinking about sexy things, there are like a MILLION other hot guys on earth who aren't Trump-supporting bigots.
I don't need to punish myself for the thought, and I so I certainly don't need to outwardly justify it to other people. "Yeah, but he's still hot," is - at best - a worthless statement. And at worst, it's dismissing TERRIBLE ideologies and behaviors just because you feel insecure about a thought you had because your moral compass is so easily swayed by a set of pecs and a nice ass.
Now, obviously, Bryan Hawn isn't a great example, because the people who still support him aren't saying "yeah, but he's still hot," they're just ignoring the accusations, or they're outwardly embracing his hate-filled rhetoric.
I just picked him out of a hat, because he's made himself an easy target for this theoretical discussion.
People don't want to say have to say "Don't say that, that's fucked up," because they don't like what it says about themselves, and because so many of us are so well trained by operating in spaces like these that are full of trolls who goad people into debates that aren't debates.
"I can't help finding him attractive," isn't something that needs to be said. Even if it's true. Maybe to your therapist, but here's the problem with saying it: if you can't sort out your initial response to seeing something that you find attractive and your ability to judge if racism is bad, then you suck. And your need to openly discuss it - defensively - makes people who have suffered things like being racially discriminated and/or physical abuse at the hands of their parter - or anyone - feel like their right to life is secondary to your right to feel okay about feeling aroused by the sight of a pretty face.
People who would argue that their right to appreciate things that they find attractive is being challenged by this are liars. Because nobody's challenging anyone's right to find anyone physically attractive. But if you insist on celebrating a particular individual's physical attractiveness - or whatever else it is that you find alluring about them - and you do it in spite of the fact that you KNOW that this person causes harm to other human beings, then the reality of it is - even if you're not conscious of it - you're not attracted to them IN SPITE of their moral shortcomings, you're attracted to them BECAUSE of their moral shortcomings.
Racism is not sexy. Dismissing racism is racism.
Being an abuser is not sexy. Dismissing abuse is abuse.
I'll say this, go easy on people when they first find out that their favorite thottie is a garbage fire. "Oh, fuck, I thought he was so hot..." as long as everything else they say acknowledges that this person's behavior and ideology is evil. But that's it. Have your moment, move on.
But let's stop feeling like insisting that the most recently cancelled hunk or hottie is not good looking does anything. It doesn't. If they beat up their boyfriend, who cares what they look like, fuck them. They used the hashtag alllivesmatter on twitter, it could be Adonis himself, fuck him. Stop engaging with people over whether or not someone is physically attractive when the issue is they're morally bankrupt. Just stop it. You're playing into their game.
And look, I get it. There's the more poetic meaning of an "ugly" person. But don't hide behind that when you know full well that what you're saying is going to be interpreted as "I find this person's physical attributes to be unacceptable, and therefore, they are morally inferior, as evidenced by their recent behavior."
"But what if it's a Black person calling a white person 'ugly' who said something racist? How is that fair?" you ask?
Well, because whiteness is ugly.
"Oh! But that's just as racist! Double standard!"
Except it's not. Whiteness, isn't defined just by your physical appearance or what your ancestral heritage is. Whiteness isn't being born with what we call "white" skin, it's a social construct that posits that there is a moral and aesthetic hierarchy in the world based on the color of people's skin, putting "white" people at the top. And then whiteness further goes on to pretend like it doesn't do that, so that it can give people an excuse to feel victimized when they're called out for blindly taking advantage of privileges afforded to them just because they're white.
When someone calls out a person who represents whiteness, they're not saying they're ugly because of their physical appearance that they can't help, they're calling them out for being a willful representation of an ugly thing: white supremacy. And it quite often comes in the form of people doing and saying things that don't scan as overt, outwardly-spoken racism. Usually, it's people taking advantage of a system that gives preference to people who are white, and often its followed by their denial that that's what they did, based only on the fact that they have Black friends and never use the n-word. Secret fact: these are usually the same people who actually do say the n-word in situations where they feel like 1. the only person who would dare call them out will have no way to prove that it ever happened, 2. everyone else will be apathetic about it, or will have their back and 3. they will once again use the "I have Black friends" excuse.
Granted, if it weren't for the existence of white supremacy, there would be fewer people on earth that would match the current definition of "white," but...so what? There'd still be people. And they'd probably all be a lot happier, and the past 1000 years or so would also have had a lot less murder, genocide, rape, colonial conquest and exploitation.
We can't undo all of that, because we don't have time machines. But we can do everything we can to dismantle it, and the quicker the better. Whiteness, by definition of what it is, isn't something that needs to be respected or preserved. Being a white person who is aware of that isn't to practice self-hatred, it's being aware of the responsibility you have in the world. Hey, maybe it seems unfair because you were just born into it, but you didn't create it, the fact is, it's less fair to ignore that responsibility.
Okay, well...weird how I started out on a pretty big issue, and then wound my way into something even more important.
One thing I notice way too often on threads - and I've touched on this before - are the various inconsistent ways in which people slag off and dismiss models and sex workers.
Most people are just super shitty, but sometimes people hard core trash talk a particular model because of something problematic about that person.
I think problematic behavior should be called out and discussed, and even shamed. For example, Bryan Hawn's overt racism or River Viiperi's patterns of abuse towards women.
But I think it's really problematic to start saying these people are ugly/unattractive or to start picking on their physical appearance as a justification for why people should divest from engaging with/giving money to these people.
How physically attractive they are isn't the issue, is it. Obviously, if your head is on straight, learning something that morally abhorrent about a person is probably going to make you feel repulsed towards them. But that's because of the moral judgement, not because of their appearance. I mean, if that weren't true, would that mean that if you find a person physically attractive, that it doesn't matter what horrible acts they've committed?
If you're going to name and shame people for doing morally and ethically terrible things, keep it in that zone. Don't equate looks with virtue. Like, ever. Not because it hurts people's feelings who maybe thought they were hot, but because it sets a standard where you're culpable in continuing a system where we equate moral inferiority with people who aren't conventionally attractive.
I think people do it because they want to discourage people from coming back with the rejoinder "Well, maybe he beat his girlfriend, but he's still hot!" But look, disagreeing with their assessment of a total creep's physical appearance isn't shutting them down, it's just contradicting them on their own terms. Terms which - in the first place - are super fucked up. It isn't cute or funny to dismiss misogyny and physical abuse on the grounds that the perpetrator might be good looking. Disagreeing with them on how attractive they are is allowing this asshole to side-step the real issue. You're just going along with them and arguing with them on the basis of something totally shallow and subjective. The objective reality is that IT IS WRONG TO BEAT WOMEN. EVEN IF YOU ARE HOT.
Don't say "No, he's ugly," just don't even engage on the topic. You should just be saying "That's a super fucked up thing to say."
I think folks also get tied up in the idea of winning an argument. Look, not everything is a debate. When you shut somebody down for the sake of winning the "argument," you're also kind of validating their point of view as something that's up for debate. If they're saying "Maybe he beat his girlfriend, but you gotta admit it - he's hot!" and you argue that he's not hot...you're sort of agreeing that it's up for debate that someone could be hot enough that it would be okay if they beat their girlfriend. NO! That's not up for debate!
Get okay with just saying what you know is right, having people scream at you, make fun of you, make BS arguments against what you said. Is it more important that you win the argument, or that somebody said what needed to be said?
Yes, sometimes your perspective is off, and maybe somebody should be arguing with you because you thought you knew what was what, but you were wrong. You're just going to have to get better at being self-aware and evaluating these kinds of things.
But if you feel like saying "It is wrong to beat women, and being hot does not justify it at all," has to be backed up with the fact that the person who beat their girlfriend isn't physically attractive...it seems like you have some problems, too.
I think it gets lost a lot, because people come here expecting to talk just about their fantasies and the aesthetics of that realm. That's fine, but you always have to understand that the objects of your desire are real people, and so is everyone else. And for a place where people want to talk about their fantasies...well, there is just way too much mean-spirited shit talk.
You can allow people to have their fantasies and everything, but you can still expect people to be serious about serious issues. Sorry, your sex fantasy needs to take a break when we're talking about racism or physical abuse. If someone informs you that your favorite InstaTHOT has been tweeting super racist shit, how you feel about how hot that person is doesn't have to change. But it damn well better stop being important to you.
If I didn't know anything about Bryan Hawn, never heard of him before, and you showed me a handful of his pictures, sure, I'd say "Yeah, that guy's hot," but if then you told me EVERYTHING else about him, I'd be like "Oh! Fuck that guy!" Would I feel like I did a bad thing for thinking he was hot? No! But the fact that he is hot would be of no importance to me any more. I wouldn't keep talking about it. When the thought popped into my head - disassociated from everything else about him - I'd be like "Oh yeah! That guy sucks hardcore!" and if I needed to keep thinking about sexy things, there are like a MILLION other hot guys on earth who aren't Trump-supporting bigots.
I don't need to punish myself for the thought, and I so I certainly don't need to outwardly justify it to other people. "Yeah, but he's still hot," is - at best - a worthless statement. And at worst, it's dismissing TERRIBLE ideologies and behaviors just because you feel insecure about a thought you had because your moral compass is so easily swayed by a set of pecs and a nice ass.
Now, obviously, Bryan Hawn isn't a great example, because the people who still support him aren't saying "yeah, but he's still hot," they're just ignoring the accusations, or they're outwardly embracing his hate-filled rhetoric.
I just picked him out of a hat, because he's made himself an easy target for this theoretical discussion.
People don't want to say have to say "Don't say that, that's fucked up," because they don't like what it says about themselves, and because so many of us are so well trained by operating in spaces like these that are full of trolls who goad people into debates that aren't debates.
"I can't help finding him attractive," isn't something that needs to be said. Even if it's true. Maybe to your therapist, but here's the problem with saying it: if you can't sort out your initial response to seeing something that you find attractive and your ability to judge if racism is bad, then you suck. And your need to openly discuss it - defensively - makes people who have suffered things like being racially discriminated and/or physical abuse at the hands of their parter - or anyone - feel like their right to life is secondary to your right to feel okay about feeling aroused by the sight of a pretty face.
People who would argue that their right to appreciate things that they find attractive is being challenged by this are liars. Because nobody's challenging anyone's right to find anyone physically attractive. But if you insist on celebrating a particular individual's physical attractiveness - or whatever else it is that you find alluring about them - and you do it in spite of the fact that you KNOW that this person causes harm to other human beings, then the reality of it is - even if you're not conscious of it - you're not attracted to them IN SPITE of their moral shortcomings, you're attracted to them BECAUSE of their moral shortcomings.
Racism is not sexy. Dismissing racism is racism.
Being an abuser is not sexy. Dismissing abuse is abuse.
I'll say this, go easy on people when they first find out that their favorite thottie is a garbage fire. "Oh, fuck, I thought he was so hot..." as long as everything else they say acknowledges that this person's behavior and ideology is evil. But that's it. Have your moment, move on.
But let's stop feeling like insisting that the most recently cancelled hunk or hottie is not good looking does anything. It doesn't. If they beat up their boyfriend, who cares what they look like, fuck them. They used the hashtag alllivesmatter on twitter, it could be Adonis himself, fuck him. Stop engaging with people over whether or not someone is physically attractive when the issue is they're morally bankrupt. Just stop it. You're playing into their game.
And look, I get it. There's the more poetic meaning of an "ugly" person. But don't hide behind that when you know full well that what you're saying is going to be interpreted as "I find this person's physical attributes to be unacceptable, and therefore, they are morally inferior, as evidenced by their recent behavior."
"But what if it's a Black person calling a white person 'ugly' who said something racist? How is that fair?" you ask?
Well, because whiteness is ugly.
"Oh! But that's just as racist! Double standard!"
Except it's not. Whiteness, isn't defined just by your physical appearance or what your ancestral heritage is. Whiteness isn't being born with what we call "white" skin, it's a social construct that posits that there is a moral and aesthetic hierarchy in the world based on the color of people's skin, putting "white" people at the top. And then whiteness further goes on to pretend like it doesn't do that, so that it can give people an excuse to feel victimized when they're called out for blindly taking advantage of privileges afforded to them just because they're white.
When someone calls out a person who represents whiteness, they're not saying they're ugly because of their physical appearance that they can't help, they're calling them out for being a willful representation of an ugly thing: white supremacy. And it quite often comes in the form of people doing and saying things that don't scan as overt, outwardly-spoken racism. Usually, it's people taking advantage of a system that gives preference to people who are white, and often its followed by their denial that that's what they did, based only on the fact that they have Black friends and never use the n-word. Secret fact: these are usually the same people who actually do say the n-word in situations where they feel like 1. the only person who would dare call them out will have no way to prove that it ever happened, 2. everyone else will be apathetic about it, or will have their back and 3. they will once again use the "I have Black friends" excuse.
Granted, if it weren't for the existence of white supremacy, there would be fewer people on earth that would match the current definition of "white," but...so what? There'd still be people. And they'd probably all be a lot happier, and the past 1000 years or so would also have had a lot less murder, genocide, rape, colonial conquest and exploitation.
We can't undo all of that, because we don't have time machines. But we can do everything we can to dismantle it, and the quicker the better. Whiteness, by definition of what it is, isn't something that needs to be respected or preserved. Being a white person who is aware of that isn't to practice self-hatred, it's being aware of the responsibility you have in the world. Hey, maybe it seems unfair because you were just born into it, but you didn't create it, the fact is, it's less fair to ignore that responsibility.
Okay, well...weird how I started out on a pretty big issue, and then wound my way into something even more important.