1.5 Million forcefully evicted.

[camper joe]

China relocated an est. 4 million during the building of the Three Gorges Dam . It was originally estimated to be only 1.14 million but by the time it is to be completed it will be the biggest relocation in history. And the Chinese government is also or will be encouraging the relocation of additional est. 4 million from their home with the development of Chongqing city.
So I guess with a total est. 8 million for these two projects a mere 1.5 million for the Olympics is seen as nothing.

 

[Deno]

There is no glory in expressing a view. And I am sure that many would agree that it is not a 'worthless ideal'. That's your viewpoint which in my mind is a 'worthless ideal' that you have been 'going on and on about' also.....but I don't see your repeated ideal as 'pushing on to others'....that's just your viewpoint.

It would be helpful if you could describe, exactly why do you think it's a 'worthless ideal' to stand up and take notice of Human Rights violations?

because it fixes nothing.

 

[D_Tintagel_Demondong]

This is true. Its called Eminent Domain and its legal - and often used. Most of the time, it can be used for something that will benefit "the public" such as a freeway or a school. However, if the "good of the public" is defined as economic development and high paying jobs...well then you end up with a situation such as they have in China. Generally speaking, most Americans are uncomfortable with this ruling, and state laws are being passed to prevent private sector benefits through Eminent Domain...where there is a tradition of land ownership (in contrast to urban China, where land is leased for long periods of time). In the USA, property owners are compensated for their land at a "fair market value"...which is often contested. In fact, my own home which is 160 years old and has been in my family for six generations is currently threatened with eminent domain. I don't want to move, but I might be forced to because of a planned road widening project.

The primary reason I went to China last year was to see historic Beijing and Shanghai hutongs before they were entirely destroyed. It is true that whole neighborhoods of two and three story 100-year old buildings are being systematically destroyed to make way for privately funded apartment buildings...with little in the way of compensation for those displaced. China has not had a strong history of property rights...so the local population seemed to me to be resigned to the situation. Still, I was told people prefer one-story traditional homes over the high rises, simply because good Ch'i comes from the earth, and is more plentiful in buildings close to the ground rather than 40 stories above the ground.

I spoke to a Beijing woman who's family had retained a home for five generations near the Drum Tower. They had moved into the house around 1880...but the government had taken portions of her house and property through the years so she only had a few rooms anymore. She was still quite proud of her home - be it much smaller than it had originally been. The historic core of Beijing is attracting attention from international investors who want a traditional Chinese homes in the historic city center. This may begin to turn the historic perspective of property rights in China.

Tragic and hurtful? Yes. Exclusive to China? Certainly not.

Pic 1 is a traditional Beijing hutong...and is threatened with destruction
Pic 2 is the interior of the Beijing house owned by the same family for five generations.
Pic 3 is a hutong in Shanghai destoyed for new construction

Sharing travel pics is fun!

QFMFT

 

[jack65]

Phil Ayesho, it seems that we agree 100% which is kinda scary lol

 

[eddyabs]

You are an idiot who has never BEEN there!

Mate, I don't know you but that was WAY below the belt.

I never said that child labour WAS slave labour, I said that IN MY MIND, it was akin and much the same.

And how would you now where I have been? I have been to the Sudan, Ethiopia, Egypt, Libya.....amongst other wealthier nations.

I'm 38 years old, and like a lot of Europeans, very well travelled.

Again, I don't know you, but a word of advice...next time you decide to overdose on pyschotropic meds, at least please try to FUCKING read the OP, before fucking well losing your wig.

Just reading the first few lines was enough for me.

 

[deleted213967]

I violently dissent with the notion that you have to go there to understand.

Dear Dr. Phil:

Did you have to travel back in time to the XIXth century to understand the abuses of the Industrial Revolution?

P.S.: If you do own a time travel machine, would you mind checking out a couple of stock prices for me at tomorrow's market close?

 

[eddyabs]

Damn right man, I have travelled, but China ain't a place that's easy for me to get to, nor a place that I am enamoured enough with to go. Heinrich Harrer's 'Seven years...' made my mind up about that a long time ago.

I'm sure that back in Britains 'glorious' colonial past, many felt the same about travelling here. Comme ci, comme ca.

 

[earllogjam]

OVER 1.5 MILLION Chinese people have been evicted, often by brute force, to make way for the Chinese Olympics.

Didn't the US do this to the American Indians, Japanese-Americans, Urban-Redevelopment of the 50's - all in the name of progress and safety? Didn't the British do this to the Irish and East Indians and all the other counties it colonized?

Aren't you the pot calling the kettle black here? You have no moral ground to stand on here.

 

[eddyabs]

Didn't the US do this to the American Indians, Japanese-Americans, Urban-Redevelopment of the 50's - all in the name of progress and safety? Didn't the British do this to the Irish and East Indians and all the other counties it colonized?

Aren't you the pot calling the kettle black here? You have no moral ground to stand on here.

I already mentioned this mate, Britains colonisation years, but as a person, an individual, I am not responsible for that time. That is just pure fucking fantasy. It's like saying me saying that you are responsible for the rape of the native american indian nation. Fucking ridiculous man.

The whole point of the ORIGINAL post, was to challenge the fawning over the Olympic ceremony and to express my point of view. For me to express disgust at the HUMAN RIGHTS abuses that are happening right now, in the present day, has got NOTHING to do what has happened in the past. If we all thought like that, it would be like expressing that as your country committed Human rights abuses 100 years ago, even YESTERDAY, then it's ok to do so TODAY.

Well, in my mind, and deep within my soul, it most cetainly fucking isn't, and never will be. Your post is just plain fucking stupid mate.

As a HUMAN BEING, REGARDLESS of what fucking nation I come from, I will always have EVERY MORAL RIGHT to feel outrage, anger and sadness at any abuse directed toward another Human Being, especially when they are powerless to challenge the wrongs done to them.

 

[D_Bob_Crotchitch]

Personally, I boycott all goods made in China and have for years. I will soon have to move to a nudist colony. :biggrin1:

 

[deleted213967]

Didn't the US do this to the American Indians, Japanese-Americans, Urban-Redevelopment of the 50's - all in the name of progress and safety? Didn't the British do this to the Irish and East Indians and all the other counties it colonized?

Aren't you the pot calling the kettle black here? You have no moral ground to stand on here.

Your Dudery,

With all due respect, this ain't Star Trek: The Prime Directive doesn't apply to "modern" China, ruled by a geriatric totalitarian Nomenklatura which wants the butter, the cannons, the cookies and eating the cookies too.

You can't have everything in life.

They want all the prerogatives of the 21st century West, they must accept the responsibilities of the 21st century West.

 

[earllogjam]

I already mentioned this mate, Britains colonisation years, but as a person, an individual, I am not responsible for that time. That is just pure fucking fantasy. It's like saying me saying that you are responsible for the rape of the native american indian nation. Fucking ridiculous man.

The whole point of the ORIGINAL post, was to challenge the fawning over the Olympic ceremony and to express my point of view. For me to express disgust at the HUMAN RIGHTS abuses that are happening right now, in the present day, has got NOTHING to do what has happened in the past. If we all thought like that, it would be like expressing that as your country committed Human rights abuses 100 years ago, even YESTERDAY, then it's ok to do so TODAY.

Well, in my mind, and deep within my soul, it most cetainly fucking isn't, and never will be. Your post is just plain fucking stupid mate.

As a HUMAN BEING, REGARDLESS of what fucking nation I come from, I will always have EVERY MORAL RIGHT to feel outrage, anger and sadness at any abuse directed toward another Human Being, especially when they are powerless to challenge the wrongs done to them.

Is it a human rights abuse to keep 1.3 billion people living in desolate poverty?

Sometimes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. The hope and pride these Olympic ceremonies have given to the 1.3 billion Chinese people are unmistakable and important to how China sees itself.

Although your opinions are noble I doubt that you speak for average Chinese citizens who have taken great pride in their country and in hosting their first Olympics as a manifestation of their place at the table in the modern world.

China's human rights abuses will probably improve as their affluence grows and their populace becomes more worldly and educated. It is just a matter of time.

 

[jack65]

Aren't we all saying the same thing here? Do we all agree that China's human rights suck? ( and yes ours were/are no better depending on where you live)

I think that we all would want better rights for every one, it is just that we have different ways of doing it, some think to boycott is the way to go others like myself think this will just hurt those we would like to see get better treatment.

So if the above is true then we should be thinking of a way that we all can agree on and then follow it though. A house divided against it self will fall.

Look what happened to Gandhi, he wanted self rule for India but then those he was helping could not agree on which way was best , the end result was self rule but with civil kayos.

If we can agree on the good of human rights then surly if we take one step back and find a away that can be agreed on and used in our countries as well as model for others - carn't we?

or is it that all we can do is argue on a big dick site?

These are my views only.

 

[Deno]

:frown1: I just bought a rubik's cube , and it was made in China. Damn! it sucks to its getting all hard to move. Does anyone know if you can lubricate a rubik's cube. Maybe KY jell? hehe

 

[Deno]

Not that I am totally unaware of the horrors posed on people in China for development. And certainly not believing its the thing to do. But! Does anyone remember seeing shacks and single family dwelling in NY City or Philadelphia or Las Vegas Or any other large metropolitan City where economic development as been used as an excuse to move people against there will for the supposed sake of the many. Every large city that exists today once contained many smaller buildings which were torn down long ago to make room for these huge concrete office building. China is just getting started. Thanks for the information on the dam project that was huge. I know for a fact here locally they did the same thing but not to that scale for a water reserve. Entire towns had to move or they would have been under water. This project not only supports fish breeding and stocking it also gave much need land for the deer herd here which at times had to be thinned out due to lack of food. It has allowed the deer herd to sustain large numbers now.

 

[B_cigarbabe]

You are an idiot who has never BEEN there.

1. Child labor is not slave labor. They are PAID and they are not "FORCED" to work at factories.
Their parents actually often pay BRIBES to get their children a job in a facotry, because it beats the hell out of stoop labor in the field.


Mollycoddled fucks like you who imagine other people HAVE the same choices you have are obnoxious.

Are you so stupid that you imagine that, if not working in factories, these children would be playing soccer in the park?
So stupid that you think people in the third world have the OPTION of their children not doing labor?

There ain't no park... its factory work, or field work. That's the reality.
What the hell do you think children are FOR in the poorer parts of the world?


The poorer parts of the world think Westerners are hopelessly ignorant to make such a big deal of children WORKING. In this country, if you grew up on a farm, you damn well did work at hard labor every damn day.

The REASON we have summers off school was so that rural kids could WORK on the farm during the summer.



And all this boycott shit- like the Nike boycott by the fools who think they know the world....
Have you ever BEEN to the third world?
Just what the fuck have YOU done to alleviate their poverty?

Let me tell you. When you buy crap made in the third world... that is the MOST that any American has ever done to alleviate poverty.

Unlike soapbox protestations that vent your spleen... buying third world goods actually enriches the workers of the third world.

And trust me... the very minute any group of people can AFFORD to have their kids in school rather than helping to support the family... they put them in school.

Look at the olympics and see all the amazing progress that China has made... the boom in building and in earnings...

ALL OF THAT came from westerners buying crap from China.

Your dollars, in the pockets of their workers.

Its created a middle class.

And the sleepy factory town I visited for 5 years and saw become rich?
The Chinese government made the rich folks of this town split their collectivist factory royalties with a dirt poor chinese village so far inland that they will probably never get factories.

SO that this inland village can build schools, and economic opportunities.


No doubt the Chinese should get out of tibet.

But until we get the fuck out of Iraq and Afghanistan, we hardly have a right to waggle our finger at the chinese.


China has a different culture... and different problems. As a nation, they are actually doing their best to solve those problems.
And the lesson is that TRADE and open relations is what has made life in China better...

Not pontificating moralists who have no comprehension of the reality of poverty.


We should learn from the positive effect the west has had on China... thru NOT isolating them...

And apply that to our relations with Iran.


China is getting better.

It can't be better IMMEDIATELY... but it is moving in the right direction.

Engagement is how better ideas and better understanding are spread.



Oh- and what the government has done to make thing nicer?

Its nothing compared to the folks relocated for the three gorges project.


But , hey... its not like the US supreme court did not just endorse the idea that American cities can Sieze private property and hand it over to commercial developers....

All over the US local govenrments are siezing old negihborhoods and selling the land at undermarket prices and with no proptety taxes to corporations who want to build Kmarts.

And they are doing it strictly to increase their sale tax revenues.

What China has done in the name of economic growth is no different than what we do, daily.


And the Chinese have not invaded another country and killed 100,000 of their citizens in the last 15 years, either.

Wow Phil! so you traveled supposedly to China. If we are to believe you every single family and citizens there all act the way you've described them?
Bullshit!
What are you doing to help remedy the situation right here in the U.S. or China, or in the town where you live?
Buying thirld world goods usually enriches a middleman not the artisans.
It's the very few companies who make sure that they are getting most of the proceeds from the goods the create.
I could call you names but it's clear to Eddy what a maroon you really are.
cigarbabe:saevil: