20/20 Segment on NBC's Entrapments

[wonder27]

Anybody see the 20/20 last night regarding the series of stings that NBC participated in?

Seems NBC collaborated with the police in a town in Texas and hired a company and actors to engage web surfers in conversations about having sex with minors. The actors pretended to be under age and engaged chats with surfers about having sex with them. They would arrange to meet at an address which was a house set up for the purpose. When a guy arrived, NBC would film an encounter with the NBC host of the show who would ask him about why he was trying to hook up with an under age person, etc.

Problem is, one guy always refused to meet, but they found out who he was and staged an event with cameras, to go to his house and arrest him. They broke into his house, found him with a gun as he shot himself in the head. He died, so it raised all sorts of questions about the ethics of what the police and NBC were doing.

First let me sat that I do believe that sex with minors is wrong. Completely wrong. It's a shame some people have that interest.

BUT, I have a serious problem with arresting someone because he thinks he is planning a sexual encounter with an under age person, when in reality, the under aged person is not under aged, but is an adult actor or police officer. If the actor pretended to be 21 rather than pretended to be 13, there would be no crime. But, simply because the actor lies and claims to be 13, the guy has committed a crime. I don't buy it.

Apparently many [most?] citizens do, because apparently there are many such sting operations underway accross the country. I suppose the people who think such stings are unethical don't want to say so because they could be accused of not wanting to protect the children. And, perhaps, some police organizations are zelous about catching these guys, so the ends justifies the means?

Any thoughts?

 

[geek0]

Did you see the one where they went to meet the guy who had taken his own son with him whilst going to meet a minor? that really turned my stomach the kid musta been 5 year old, it does seem an odd thing to put on tv but if these sting operations work in rl then good luck to them, the more they catch the better for our kids.

 

[EagleCowboy]

You guys are surprised at NBC for doing this? Remember that they're the ones who took a Chevy truck with side saddle tanks, FORCED it to explode, then made a big deal about how unsafe they were when they really aren't.

 

[Osiris]

Anybody see the 20/20 last night regarding the series of stings that NBC participated in?

Seems NBC collaborated with the police in a town in Texas and hired a company and actors to engage web surfers in conversations about having sex with minors. The actors pretended to be under age and engaged chats with surfers about having sex with them. They would arrange to meet at an address which was a house set up for the purpose. When a guy arrived, NBC would film an encounter with the NBC host of the show who would ask him about why he was trying to hook up with an under age person, etc.

Problem is, one guy always refused to meet, but they found out who he was and staged an event with cameras, to go to his house and arrest him. They broke into his house, found him with a gun as he shot himself in the head. He died, so it raised all sorts of questions about the ethics of what the police and NBC were doing.

First let me sat that I do believe that sex with minors is wrong. Completely wrong. It's a shame some people have that interest.

BUT, I have a serious problem with arresting someone because he thinks he is planning a sexual encounter with an under age person, when in reality, the under aged person is not under aged, but is an adult actor or police officer. If the actor pretended to be 21 rather than pretended to be 13, there would be no crime. But, simply because the actor lies and claims to be 13, the guy has committed a crime. I don't buy it.

Apparently many [most?] citizens do, because apparently there are many such sting operations underway accross the country. I suppose the people who think such stings are unethical don't want to say so because they could be accused of not wanting to protect the children. And, perhaps, some police organizations are zelous about catching these guys, so the ends justifies the means?

Any thoughts?

Yes I watched this as I had seen the original segments on NBC. Just for clarification, NBC didn't hire a company, they did this operation in tandem with an organization called Perverted Justice. Perverted Justice goes after online predators and their tactics are often called into question. I'm on the fence about some of their tactics.

The 20/20 piece really made that police farce look stupid. I mean the Chief of Police:

"Did Brian Williams give you his phone number?"
"I didn't get it from Brian Williams."

And then they show the footage of Williams with a piece of paper reading the number to this moron.

I too am against pedophiles, but these guys were absolute idiots and it's "police work" like this that makes prosecutor's jobs impossible when going after predators. A predator is NOT a predator until, God forbid, he actually commits the act. This has been proven by the "Pedophile Blogger" guy who moved from Seattle, to LA, got bounced from LA over snapping and posting pics on the web, and is now in Portland (you have my sympathy wldhoney). He has not committed a crime yet, he has talked about his obsession.

For years I did chat room monitoring in another forum and in that forum we would have kids come in and chat along side adults. It was a family community chat area. If I had a dollar for every little Lolita that PM'd trying to talk dirty. I would usually ask them why they were doing this and try to scare them straight. Worse yet, the ones who do it under a false identity. God knows how many 14 or 15 year olds are posing as 20 somethings to "get attention". These girls look like they are of age with the right make up and clothes. I wholly predict in the very near future we are going to hear of a case where a guy is up for pedophilia and the chat records will show a false identity issue with the minor.

When these guys in the Dateline piece showed up at the house, should police have taken them down? NO! No crime had been committed. What they should have done was gotten the guys psych help. Instead NBC stigmatized these guys (well they did to since they were stupid enough to sign the release showing them on TV) by showing the arrest, and made the DA's job impossible because there was nothing for them to prosecute. God only knows how much money was "pissed up a flagpole" on man hours for this useless display.

In the case of the attorney who's home was raided? When he didn't show up, they had no cause for the tactics they took. He was chatting and not showing up and the actor was REALLY pushing hard to get him there. Had he showed up it would be one thing, when he didn't? They got nuthin'. What's to say he wasn't role playing? (I'll bet that is what the attorney representing his sister is arguing). Raiding the guys house with SWAT was insanity. And claiming to do it because they "thought he would destroy child porn evidence" on his computer. So he sent a picture of his dick to this guy? OH MY!!! SOMEONE GET ROB_E ON THE PHONE BECAUSE 97% OF LPSG MEMBERS ARE NOW GOING TO JAIL FOR SENDING PENIS PICS!! SO if you really want to get this guy, get him on an indecency charge if you can, but SWAT? I would hate to see the police station at summertime. I'm sure the walls are full of bullet holes from them shooting the errant fly that gets in.

It really pisses me off how this whole thing played out. Why you ask? Because it's idiots like these high on themselves cops, overzealous tactics at Perverted Justice, and NBC catering to the "celebrity factor" both groups have that have set the cause for ridding the net of pedophiles back decades.

I hope NBC loses the lawsuits that have been filed in response to these foolish actions. Even William Randolph Hearst would turn his nose up at such yellow journalism.

:soapbox:

Stepping down now. Next?​

 

[Osiris]

You guys are surprised at NBC for doing this? Remember that they're the ones who took a Chevy truck with side saddle tanks, FORCED it to explode, then made a big deal about how unsafe they were when they really aren't.

Not surprised at all my man. This is also the network that chastised Deborah Norville for going to Inside Edition after leaving the Today show. I'm more amazed they haven't hired Geraldo Rivera and Jerry Springer as correspondents yet.

 

[Mem]

First of all this should be moved to Et Cetera

I saw it too. You have to think there are some sour grapes involved since 20/20 is their competitor.

 

[Osiris]

First of all this should be moved to Et Cetera

I saw it too. You have to think there are some sour graped involved since 20/20 is their competitor.

True, but NBC knew better and should have covered their butts and really done some hard thinking about how their actions would play out in the legal arena. If someone shops a story to a competitor and it proves true, they'd be idiots not to take it.

 

[viking1]

You guys are surprised at NBC for doing this? Remember that they're the ones who took a Chevy truck with side saddle tanks, FORCED it to explode, then made a big deal about how unsafe they were when they really aren't.

Since NBC's parent company is the ever greedy General Electric Corporation, what would you expect?

I have no doubt this was done on purpose, with GM's blessing. After this was exposed as a fraud, you never heard much more about it. The general public thought the whole thing was a farce after that and it faded away.

These trucks were more dangerous than those which had the fuel tank up in the frame. Notice that light trucks are no longer made that way. Wonder why? Heavy trucks don't really count. Diesel fuel isn't nearly as flammable as gasoline.

 

[Mem]

True, but NBC knew better and should have covered their butts and really done some hard thinking about how their actions would play out in the legal arena. If someone shops a story to a competitor and it proves true, they'd be idiots not to take it.

I do hope the sister of the man who killed himself gets millions of dollars from NBC, they really went after this guy, and admitted that they don't normally go to someone's house to arrest them.

 

[viking1]

Anybody see the 20/20 last night regarding the series of stings that NBC participated in?

Seems NBC collaborated with the police in a town in Texas and hired a company and actors to engage web surfers in conversations about having sex with minors. The actors pretended to be under age and engaged chats with surfers about having sex with them. They would arrange to meet at an address which was a house set up for the purpose. When a guy arrived, NBC would film an encounter with the NBC host of the show who would ask him about why he was trying to hook up with an under age person, etc.

Problem is, one guy always refused to meet, but they found out who he was and staged an event with cameras, to go to his house and arrest him. They broke into his house, found him with a gun as he shot himself in the head. He died, so it raised all sorts of questions about the ethics of what the police and NBC were doing.

First let me sat that I do believe that sex with minors is wrong. Completely wrong. It's a shame some people have that interest.

BUT, I have a serious problem with arresting someone because he thinks he is planning a sexual encounter with an under age person, when in reality, the under aged person is not under aged, but is an adult actor or police officer. If the actor pretended to be 21 rather than pretended to be 13, there would be no crime. But, simply because the actor lies and claims to be 13, the guy has committed a crime. I don't buy it.

Apparently many [most?] citizens do, because apparently there are many such sting operations underway accross the country. I suppose the people who think such stings are unethical don't want to say so because they could be accused of not wanting to protect the children. And, perhaps, some police organizations are zelous about catching these guys, so the ends justifies the means?

Any thoughts?

This is what I have said all along: IF this were being done properly, That is not entrapment or leading people to do this, then I have no problem with it. I do think it should be done by police and or other professionals and not volunteers or journalists. In saying this I am NOT condoning pedophilia in any way!

 

[Osiris]

This is what I have said all along: IF this were being done properly, That is not entrapment or leading people to do this, then I have no problem with it. I do think it should be done by police and or other professionals and not volunteers or journalists. In saying this I am NOT condoning pedophilia in any way!

That's kind of why I am on the fence about Perverted Justice. I think they are a good group and have a good idea, but you stick the need to get your message out to the masses together with a ratings hungry "journalist" and it never leads to anything good. I also feel that sometimes they are entrapping and not going after a known pedophile. Two very different things.

In a lot of cases, PJ has provided legitimate info and evidence and once PJ has what they need, they usually turn it over to the police. PJ is usually, from what I can tell, very good at keeping the local authorities in the loop on their actions. Dateline just really set them back a ways is all.

 

[CUBE]

I had watched the Dateline show before. It was disturbing. Of course you don't want a child predator contacting a child. But it was also the production of the show I found disturbing. I don't know why but the host and the production seemed equally creepy...like they are getting off on the people trying to get off. I wish I had words for this. The entire thing seemed odd so it doesn't surprise me they have crossed the line as well.

 

[Mem]

That's kind of why I am on the fence about Perverted Justice. I think they are a good group and have a good idea, but you stick the need to get your message out to the masses together with a ratings hungry "journalist" and it never leads to anything good. I also feel that sometimes they are entrapping and not going after a known pedophile. Two very different things.

In a lot of cases, PJ has provided legitimate info and evidence and once PJ has what they need, they usually turn it over to the police. PJ is usually, from what I can tell, very good at keeping the local authorities in the loop on their actions. Dateline just really set them back a ways is all.

their name is ironic, sometimes they use perverted means to obtain their justice.

 

[EagleCowboy]

Viking1: Diesel fuel IS more explosive than gas. Diesel fuel is what you get before you get gasoline. Gasoline's flash point is lower than diesel's, which makes gas ignite way too easily, but it still doesn't take much to ignite diesel. A.K.A. open flame of any kind.

I have an '82 Chevy 3/4 ton truck with the dual tanks that I bought new and custom ordered. This truck was built from the factory with the tanks INSIDE the frame just like the new ones are now. The only reason the issue died down is because GM issued a voluntary recall which seemed to appease the public.

GM contacted me for 3 years with unrelenting letters and phone calls. They were not going to correct the so-called "problem with the truck". Their demands were I could surrender the truck to them to be destroyed, or trade it in on a new GM car or truck and get $500 for it. That was the only option they ever gave me. What a joke!! Since then I have refused to buy anything GM or GM owned for that reason but more importantly, their new stuff is just plain expensive junk. I know, I work on these new beasts.

I still have that '82 Chevy truck.

 

[korndog]

I had watched the Dateline show before. It was disturbing. Of course you don't want a child predator contacting a child. But it was also the production of the show I found disturbing. I don't know why but the host and the production seemed equally creepy...like they are getting off on the people trying to get off. I wish I had words for this. The entire thing seemed odd so it doesn't surprise me they have crossed the line as well.

Dude, I totally agree with you. I have watched this show a couple of times, but I also found it disturbing. Needless to say, I am appalled at how many pedophiles there are out there, and they need to be removed from society. But watching this show is like being a voyeur, and not in a good way. I think it's a disgrace that they take an awful crime and turn it into ENTERTAINMENT.

 

[Osiris]

Viking1: Diesel fuel IS more explosive than gas. Diesel fuel is what you get before you get gasoline. Gasoline's flash point is lower than diesel's, which makes gas ignite way too easily, but it still doesn't take much to ignite diesel. A.K.A. open flame of any kind.

I have an '82 Chevy 3/4 ton truck with the dual tanks that I bought new and custom ordered. This truck was built from the factory with the tanks INSIDE the frame just like the new ones are now. The only reason the issue died down is because GM issued a voluntary recall which seemed to appease the public.

GM contacted me for 3 years with unrelenting letters and phone calls. They were not going to correct the so-called "problem with the truck". Their demands were I could surrender the truck to them to be destroyed, or trade it in on a new GM car or truck and get $500 for it. That was the only option they ever gave me. What a joke!! Since then I have refused to buy anything GM or GM owned for that reason but more importantly, their new stuff is just plain expensive junk. I know, I work on these new beasts.

I still have that '82 Chevy truck.

Sorry to divert a moment, but Eagle? What truck would you recommend? We are in the market and I prefer fist hand experience to Consumer Reports. You can PM me if you like.

OK, back on topic.

 

[viking1]

Viking1: Diesel fuel IS more explosive than gas. Diesel fuel is what you get before you get gasoline. Gasoline's flash point is lower than diesel's, which makes gas ignite way too easily, but it still doesn't take much to ignite diesel. A.K.A. open flame of any kind.

If that's true, why does gasoline have a class II USDOT packing group rating, and diesel fuel have a class III packing group? The lower the number the more dangerous the material.

Diesel fuel flash point: +125F (minimum by federal standards).
Gasoline flash point: -45F.

The ignition temp is less for diesel fuel, but not by much.

Diesel also burns slower than gasoline, but does have more heat value per
gallon. Gasoline is much lighter than diesel fuel and is much more volatile.
Gasoline would be evaporated from crude oil at a much lower temp than diesel. I am not saying diesel can't explode, but it has to heated and well atomized. Gasoline can explode at room temperature. If you think diesel fuel is easy to ignite, next time you want to burn a brush pile try using diesel fuel. You will use every cuss word in the book trying to light it.

I work for a petroleum retailer and I have commercial hazmat drivers license. I do know a little about this.

 

[Mem]

If that's true, why does gasoline have a class II USDOT packing group rating, and diesel fuel have a class III packing group? The lower the number the more dangerous the material.
Diesel fuel flash point: +125F (minimum by federal standards).
Gasoline flash point: -45F.
The ignition temp is less for diesel fuel, but not by much.
iesel also burns slower than gasoline, but does have more heat value per
gallon. Gasoline is much lighter than diesel fuel and is much more volatile.
Gasoline would be evaporated from crude oil at a much lower temp than diesel. I am not saying diesel can't explode, but it has to heated and well atomized. Gasoline can explode at room temperature. If you think diesel fuel is easy to ignite, next time you want to burn a brush pile try using diesel fuel. You will use every cuss word in the book trying to light it.
I work for a petroleum retailer and have commercial hazmat drivers license. I do know a little about this.

I think Diesel should go to Gasoline's house and have him arrested.

 

[SpoiledPrincess]

I strongly disagree with this program and I question the motives of some of the members of Perverted Justice, there are two people participating in those conversations regarding sex with underage children and I wonder if some of the members of Perverted Justice aren't indulging their own enjoyment of talking about that subject. I don't know exactly how to put it into words but it's almost as if they're getting pleasure out of being 'clever' enough and 'convincing' enough as a child that they can't have some interest in children themselves.

As has been pointed out one guy who refused to go for this meeting was driven to suicide when, after repeated requests that he turn up he still refused.

I've seen some of the footage of the program now and I'm also worried that quite a few of the men they come across seem borderline retarded - one guy showed up in a predator mask, is that normal?

In the hazy world of the internet people feel much more freedom to enter into fantasy and if there wasn't an adult there who knew how to manipulate and inflame these fantasies how many of these men would never have given voice to something that he'd only thought about, having fantasies about underage girls might not be very healthy but I'm sure that the majority of men have had this type of fantasy once in a while - the 15 year old cheerleader, the schoolgirl - unfortunately these men came across adults who were able to give more fuel to these fantasies.

 

[Osiris]

I strongly disagree with this program and I question the motives of some of the members of Perverted Justice, there are two people participating in those conversations regarding sex with underage children and I wonder if some of the members of Perverted Justice aren't indulging their own enjoyment of talking about that subject. I don't know exactly how to put it into words but it's almost as if they're getting pleasure out of being 'clever' enough and 'convincing' enough as a child that they can't have some interest in children themselves.

As has been pointed out one guy who refused to go for this meeting was driven to suicide when, after repeated requests that he turn up he still refused.

I've seen some of the footage of the program now and I'm also worried that quite a few of the men they come across seem borderline retarded - one guy showed up in a predator mask, is that normal?

In the hazy world of the internet people feel much more freedom to enter into fantasy and if there wasn't an adult there who knew how to manipulate and inflame these fantasies how many of these men would never have given voice to something that he'd only thought about, having fantasies about underage girls might not be very healthy but I'm sure that the majority of men have had this type of fantasy once in a while - the 15 year old cheerleader, the schoolgirl - unfortunately these men came across adults who were able to give more fuel to these fantasies.

I am glad the officers that went to ABC also were on camera talking about how they felt uncomfortable with the way NBC was pulling the strings.

That is part of why I have issue with PJ. It could be a couple of rouge chapters, but I have to agree with you. They do seem to get off on this sort of thing and yeah, they may be primarily tech geeks, they really need to watch how they are coming across in the press.

The hunter becoming the hunted.