25 Million Child Benefit Records Lost

eddyabs

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If you haven't read the graphic novel form of V for Vendetta, you should. Sounds a lot like you describe. Not to mention it is a great read and better than the movie.

Will do Osiris thanks mate. If you're a comic fan you must read (if you haven't already) the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Awesome GNs.....trust me.
 

dong20

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As the Government has control over its departments, again, therefore the buck will lie with the Government. (Please also refer to the end of this post).

Whatever, I just think you're missing the point about the true culpability.

My point exactly, the Head of the Home Civil Service was appointed directly by the PM, so therefore where exactly do you think the blame should lie? Especially now as it appears the missing discs go somewhat higher than a junior officer.

The only person who has mentioned the Civil Service directly is me, so how is it your point. In the Civil Service anyone below assistant secretary is a junior officer. In media terms at least.

But we are going round in circles I feel. In simple terms, why would Gordon Brown be standing in Parliament and defending his party, if he felt he/they were not to blame?

That doesn't even deserve an answer it's so obvious.

Actually, it is not known which courier service sent these discs...currently the courier service TNT are being investigated.

I read the same, but the issue seems to be surrounded in murkiness. If the discs were sent by courier it underscores my point to you and Osiris that using a courier is no guarantee of security.

eddyabs said:
...Gordon Brown, our unelected Prime Minister, has apologised on behalf of a 'junior official' who sent the package containing the disc UNREGISTERED from the Governments HMRC (Her Majesty's Revenus and Customs)....

As we can see, is was your goodself who stated the discs were sent UNREGISTERED (your caps). Perhaps before you try to score points this way, you review your own post?

All very well suggesting such, to make such accusations, but they hold no sway without proof. The remark you make about personal information, I'm sure this occurs, but again, you are heading into the realms of conspiracy when you are making no direct accusation or example.

I can assure you it does. It's not a conspiracy it's simple, honest negligence. Believe me - don't believe me, I care not.

No, the mailing company obviously should take the blame.....but this is not the point, as you already know, the person who sent these discs did so unregistered and unencrypted....and far from containing a weeks pension, these discs (again) hold the personal bank details, addresses and NI numbers of 25 million people....and your point is????

Actually I believe the data were password protected but that's a side issue. The loss of a pension payment is more of a problem to its recipient (you to buy minor items such as food) than a theoretical ID fraud would be, that was my point.

Actually, I was responding to Osiris....as the OP, I think I have the right to, and you already have proved within this post that you too are adept at 'going off on a tangent'.:wink:

So it's OK for you to do but not another? Being the OP grants no special privilges here with regard to the direction of the thread. To be honest I don't believe I have gone off on a tangent, I have tried to explain a few basic facts about the functioning of the Civil Service and why I believe you are placing the real blame in the wrong place because (IMHO) you are blinded by your dislike of all things Labour.:rolleyes:

That's harsh. Of course I am entitled to hold my own opinion, it's nice to know that you assume to speak for me there. But please do state where exactly it is that I assume to speak for others?? Or are we sailing into the realms of tangents and conspiracies once more?

I wasn't speaking for you, I was speaking for myself. How is saying you have a right to your opinion speaking for you pray tell isn't it quite the reverse? What conspiracies.....????? Could you explain where I have alluded to a conspiracy of any type anywhere? In fact your suggestion :

eddyabs said:
That's if it was even a genuine mistake! And come on, this was sent unencrypted on a disc and by unregistered post.

Are you suggesting the disc was 'lost' intentionally? Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me, don't you think? Also that's your second statement declaring them sent unregistered post.

To make my point clear as to why Gordon Brown may be more on the defensive for this huge and damaging blunder, I suggest you read this article about the gradual politicisation of the Civil service since Labour came to power in 1997. In particular the 'fourth development'. Also if you refer to the link in the article 'September 2003 response to the ninth report of the Public Standards Committee' you'll find that the link has been removed, especially when one discovers what exactly that link refers to.....funny that! Times change, and your argument about the Civil Service is dated. Now maybe you can understand why old 'Gord' is actually apologising.

It's interesting that the opening paragraph of the page reflects what I've said (my bold).

"The British Civil Service is now the only major Civil Service in the developed world to remain wholly unpoliticised in its upper reaches. Others sometimes claim to be, but no longer are. New appointments in these countries do not always clearly follow from party allegiance, but they reflect Ministerial preference and thus personal and political rather than constitutional and institutional loyalty."

Times do change but my argument about the Civil Service is entirely valid as a statement of principal. I've never said it isn't being politicised because it is - and has been for decades, well before New Labour came to the party. They have merely continued the rot with renewed vigour.

As for the broken link, that happens, there's no conspiracy and the documents can be found in many places. Here's one:

Committee on Standards in Public Life | Ninth Report

The actual response by Wicks is here:

Chair’s statement on Goverment’s response to Ninth Report

I think you're looking for conspiracies where none exist. I fail to see how you can accuse me of doing the same when I'm actually doing the opposite.

I understand perfectly why Brown is on the defensive, this debacle is merely the latest in a line of defensive stands. I'm sure it won't be the last. That said nothing you have said here changes my opinion that while Brown is ultimately reponsible for departmental mistakes in a theoretical sense to expect him to resign over this is naive. Darling on the other hand is an incompetent buffoon who should be shown the door.
 

eddyabs

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As we can see, is was your goodself who stated the discs were sent UNREGISTERED (your caps). Perhaps before you try to score points this way, you review your own post?

Yes and? How am I trying to score points pray tell? I never said anything to the contrary? You sound a bit desperate here mate IMHO.


That said nothing you have said here changes my opinion that while Brown is ultimately reponsible for departmental mistakes in a theoretical sense to expect him to resign over this is naive. Darling on the other hand is an incompetent buffoon who should be shown the door.

As for the Article I linked to in my last post about the recent politicisation of the civil service, I see you included only the opening paragraph for your needs in your above post.......what it carried on to say.....that Labour has been deliberately politicising the Civil Service since they came into power in 1997......which totally trashes your argument about the Civil Service being non-political. Again, times change.

I love the way you chose to omit that part.

You'd make a great politician.

And the above quote? I never said I expected Brown to resign, enough of your conjecture.

Apart from that, I'm glad we see eye to eye at last.
 

eddyabs

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Just before you post your next 'uber' post, I'd rather hear other peoples views now, our argument has run its course, in the knowledge that we both now agree that Brown has accountability in some part, as was my original argument.

I expect this thread will die as its only you and I posting, but I fear that I will be only responding to further suggestion and conjecture from yourself, so lets move on shall we, with the full knowledge that we'd have a humdinger of a row if we were at opposites within the House itself. :smile:

Ed
 

dong20

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Yes and? How am I trying to score points pray tell? I never said anything to the contrary? You sound a bit desperate here mate IMHO.

It may have been "Actually, it is not known which courier service sent these discs...currently the courier service TNT are being investigated."

Well, of course I may have been wrong in perceiving a snipe - it was made in response to my mention of RM (although actually, I don't believe I am wrong) - but desparate? Hardly.

Recall who stated the discs were sent unregistered, twice? Also, I'm not your 'mate'.

As for the Article I linked to in my last post about the recent politicisation of the civil service, I see you included only the opening paragraph for your needs in your above post.......what it carried on to say.....that Labour has been deliberately politicising the Civil Service since they came into power in 1997......which totally trashes your argument about the Civil Service being non-political. Again, times change.

I didn't say it wasn't politicised, I actually said it was. More on that below. I also said that constitutionally and operationally Civil Servants are employees of and accountable to the Crown not Government, which is in fact the case. You may of course add whatever additonal spin on that you like.

I love the way you chose to omit that part.

You'd make a great politician.

I'm glad you're happy. Now, I cited the first part because it supported my assertion that the Civil Service is in principal non political which was, if you recall my intial point about where to start assigning blame, but you're clearly on a partisan bender so it's fallen on deaf ears.

However, if you want to try to score more cheap points by accusing me of selective quoting - you neglected to mention that I went on to say, and I quote :

dong20 said:
Times do change but my argument about the Civil Service is entirely valid as a statement of principal. I've never said it isn't being politicised because it is - and has been for decades, well before New Labour came to the party. They have merely continued the rot with renewed vigour.

Note the bold where I actually agree with you. In case it's less than obvious it's the bold bit.

Apart from that, I'm glad we see eye to eye at last.

There you go, speaking for others again. :rolleyes: Actually as I see it; we don't see eye to eye at all. You hold Brown accountable, as do I - but you also hold him responsible which I don't, because he isn't.

Just before you post your next 'uber' post, I'd rather hear other peoples views now, our argument has run its course, in the knowledge that we both now agree that Brown has accountability in some part, as was my original argument.

I expect this thread will die as its only you and I posting, but I fear that I will be only responding to further suggestion and conjecture from yourself, so lets move on shall we, with the full knowledge that we'd have a humdinger of a row if we were at opposites within the House itself. :smile:

Ed

Last time I checked, this board isn't your personal fiefdom, however (and this is just conjecture) I also suspect this is a dead end.

I'm done here (with you that is).
 

D_Ted Riding Hooded

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My main question is what moron sends something so sensitive and crucial to the national welfare via regular post and not courier. Who's flipping idea was it to install that guy in his job in the first place?

Osiris, in answer to your first question the 'sensitive and crucial' info WAS sent by courier......Namely TNT.....I believe once they didn't arrive two more copies were sent Special Delivery via Royal Mail which did arrive next day!!

Sorry I don't know the answer to your second question....
 

eddyabs

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England fail to qualify for Euro 2008 and Steve McLaren is sacked.

The Inland Revenue loses discs containing the personal data of 25million Britons and the Chancellor keeps his job.

wtf?


Yeh man, and it's cold and grey.....can things get any worse in Blighty?
 

D_Ted Riding Hooded

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England football manager gets £2m pay off.....:confused:

British Prime Minister gets £180,000 a year....:confused:

Even though I've been Labour since Clem Attlee and I dislike the way the party has gone in the last 15 or so years,don't you think our priorities are wrong??
 

eddyabs

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England football manager gets £2m pay off.....:confused:

British Prime Minister gets £180,000 a year....:confused:

Even though I've been Labour since Clem Attlee and I dislike the way the party has gone in the last 15 or so years,don't you think our priorities are wrong??

It all paints a pretty depressing picture yes. £180,000!! So much for Socialism.
 

Jason

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More bad news for Labour. After the week they've just had it seems impossible that it could get worse. But today the media is running with the story of a secret donation of £400,000 to Labour party funds.

The donor is a leading property developer in the NE. Every project he proposes needs approval by councils in the NE, most (=all?) of which are under Labour control.
 

Drifterwood

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Deep down I consider Mr. Brown a decent human being.

Sadly though, this country is headed for meltdown. The least able to repay 20% of borrowers are going to be completely fucked. The banks are controling the real interest rate, not the B of E, and they have decided on a cull.

Like the Tories before, this party has been in power too long and their arrogance and contempt for the people is becoming plain to see.

Will they take responsibility for any ensuing id theft? Of course if they do, that just means that we will have to pay for it.

We have the world's fifth largest GDP, yet you won't find us in the top twenty of any global lifestyle/quality of life survey. I think that says it all.