9 Trillion Reasons HealthCare May Be Dead

Trinity

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Keeping rates down? Is that what the Democratically Controlled Congress is doing for us? Making sure healthcare is affordable? No they aren't. Let me be clear: Every person will be paying more for healthcare while getting less for it because of the government control in the health insurance free market.


The Democrats have no way to pay for a Government Option but for us to PAY MORE:
  • Democratic bills want to reduce the payouts for specialists. Will we have enough Specialist? Will we have enough doctors, nurses, medical facilities?
  • Democratic bills want to tax medical devices. Who will pay for that? The Citizens.
  • Democratic bills pass on the cost for their reform to the States via Medicare. Who is going to pay for that? The Citizens...us.
  • Democratic bills have $29 Billion more in taxes that will be passed on to us.
The only bill that is even purported to save us anything DOESN'T HAVE A PUBLIC OPTION!! And that bill is scored based on conceptual language with too many caveats to be taken too seriously at this point.

The Government has never run a program cost effectively. Every one of them is going broke. Even the healthcare system in France is dealing with rising cost issues.

Rationing care and raising taxes is not what the American people want.

Anyone who believes that affordable healthcare will come out a Public Option...that's like to saying you will buy a Pinto because it's cheap.

A cheap car that will blow up on you isn't what you want. I'd rather get the gasket fixed on my Volvo...I just need the federal government to regulate that the Mechanics have to fix my car regardless of a precondition or extended care and the Mechanics can't over charge me.
 

SpeedoGuy

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Every person will be paying more for healthcare while getting less for it because of the government control in the health insurance free market.

Baloney.

If the so-called free market for healthcare was as successful as you imply, it would already have succeeded in holding costs down for the widest possible range of enrollees. It hasn't.
 

porter111

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Trinity, whats your solution, the republican plan of nothing? If rates keep rising the way they are (and mine just did) no one will be able to afford health insurance without reform. Now I can meet you half way with tort reform and competing across state lines, but a public option is vital, either that or price controls, but I know your not interested in any of those things...

Are you paid by united health care group?
 

Trinity

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Baloney.

If the so-called free market for healthcare was as successful as you imply, it would already have succeeded in holding costs down for the widest possible range of enrollees. It hasn't.

80% are happy with their healthcare.

Even among those who are happy with their private health insurance they want reform to keep premiums from going up, overall healthcare costs from increasing and health insurers from denying claims in favor of profits.

Is the answer government run health insurance? No. Will a Government Option reduce cost for the insured? No. Taxes, penalities, the increased costs to cover the uninsured and government waste (because the federal government simply can't run anything cost effectively) will INCREASE costs for all of us.

If increased competition will keep costs down then Congress should open private insurance across state lines. Congress should allow small businesses to group. Congress should pass legislation on tort reform.
Congress should incentivize good health outcomes.
 

Industrialsize

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80% are happy with their healthcare.

Even among those who are happy with their private health insurance they want reform to keep premiums from going up, overall healthcare costs from increasing and health insurers from denying claims in favor of profits.

Is the answer government run health insurance? No. Will a Government Option reduce cost for the insured? No. Taxes, penalities, the increased costs to cover the uninsured and government waste (because the federal government simply can't run anything cost effectively) will INCREASE costs for all of us.

If increased competition will keep costs down then Congress should open private insurance across state lines. Congress should allow small businesses to group. Congress should pass legislation on tort reform.
Congress should incentivize good health outcomes.
It sounds like you've swallowed and regurgitated the republican talking points........It's too late Trinity, Health Care reform is gaining momentum. A good CBO score on the Baucus Bill, a compromise of a state opt-out of the public option..The Blue Dogs coming home.Bob Dole, Bill Frist, Arnold all talking to the press in FAVOR of health Care reform...It's a DONE DEAL.........all that's left is to cast the votes and have the President sign it.......Another major DEMOCRATIC passed reform for our country......You probably ould have been against medicare and social security, both DEMOCRATIC ideas opposed by the Republicans.
 

Trinity

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It sounds like you've swallowed and regurgitated the republican talking points........It's too late Trinity, Health Care reform is gaining momentum.

The Democrats have the wrong reform. The American people know it. There is no momentum. You can't change someones mind to support the the wrong plan. :rolleyes:

A good CBO score on the Baucus Bill,
What are you talking about...you don't want the Baucus bill...lol
a compromise of a state opt-out of the public option..The Blue Dogs coming home.Bob Dole, Bill Frist, Arnold all talking to the press in FAVOR of health Care reform

Bob Dole, Bill Frist and Arnold are not in Congress. Remember Obama's townhalls...Obama's big speech to Congress? If Salesman-in-Chief couldn't sell it why in the world would you think calling their names would mean a thing? The American people read the bills. This is our lives we are talking about. The Democrats don't have the right reform period. :rolleyes:

...It's a DONE DEAL.........all that's left is to cast the votes and have the President sign it.......Another major DEMOCRATIC passed reform for our country......You probably ould have been against medicare and social security, both DEMOCRATIC ideas opposed by the Republicans.

The Deal is far from done. If Obama signs the wrong reform he will personify the wrong type of Change.
 
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That's where I part company with so many conservatives: The notion that narrow self-interest is a virtue sufficient to sustain a community or a nation.

And the shocker is most call themselves Christians and expect to go sailing through the pearly gates with flying colors.
 

Industrialsize

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The Democrats have the wrong reform. The American people know it. There is no momentum. You can't change someones mind to support the the wrong plan. :rolleyes:

What are you talking about...you don't want the Baucus bill...lol


Bob Dole, Bill Frist and Arnold are not in Congress. Remember Obama's townhalls...Obama's big speech to Congress? If Salesman-in-Chief couldn't sell it why in the world would you think calling their names would mean a thing? The American people read the bills. This is our lives we are talking about. The Democrats don't have the right reform period. :rolleyes:



The Deal is far from done. If Obama signs the wrong reform he will personify the wrong type of Change.
You're right, I don't want the Baucus Bill and don't think the final bill will resemble it. But the CBO score will at least get it out of fucking committee. That score gives the Blue Dog's cover to vote it out. The fun begins when it is merged with the HELP committee's Bill. The Final Bill WILL have a public-option, and the Blue Dogs will vote for cloture. For me, the public option is a compromise. I'm a single payer kind of guy.
 

D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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Trinity writes:


The Democrats have the wrong reform. The American people know it. There is no momentum. You can't change someones mind to support the the wrong plan.


--------------------


John Q. Public: Trinity, if all these bills in the House and the Senate are the "wrong reform", then what is the "right reform"?

Trinity: Look, 80% of all americans are happy with their healthcare.

John: I'm sorry, but during the presidential primary, healthcare was as big an issue as the Iraq war.

Trinity: Yes, that's correct. The american people want to stay in Iraq and finish the job, and a large majority say they're all satisfied with their healthcare.


John: ...but... polls are not quite bearing that out, Trinity.

Trinity: Polls?... POLLS?... Don't talk to me about polls!... First of all, you're looking at the WRONG polls. All of them, except maybe Rasmussen and Quinipiac, are products of the mainstream liberal media pushing its socialist agenda! My general rule of thumb is: Most of these liberal polls show support for a public option at 65 to 75%. Just subtract 30 points. That's what I do. Support for the public option is currently at 35%.

John: I've noticed that's what you do with links, too, Trinity. You seem to scour all kinds of websites until you can find that ONE WEBSITE that supports whatever point you're making... then you provide the link and say it's what the american people want.

Trinity: Well, I've learned that if I say whatever I have to say with certitude and enough bombast, I can re-claim the moral high ground.

John: Do you really think posting dubious links to biased polling - with certitude and bombast - will win you arguments?

Trinity: The american people think healthcare is just fine. A few minor tweaks here and there. And polls show that 67% of the american people want us to stay in Iraq and finish the job. And 66% of americans support Sarah Palin as long as she uses her own words and isn't coached what to say by GOP handlers. Polls show americans like a "rogue" Sarah Palin.
 

Trinity

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You're right, I don't want the Baucus Bill and don't think the final bill will resemble it. But the CBO score will at least get it out of fucking committee. That score gives the Blue Dog's cover to vote it out. The fun begins when it is merged with the HELP committee's Bill. The Final Bill WILL have a public-option, and the Blue Dogs will vote for cloture. For me, the public option is a compromise. I'm a single payer kind of guy.

The Democrats don't have the right reform and they aren't changing the minds of the American people...not Pelosi, not Reid (he isn't even convincing his own state) and not Obama.

The score on the Baucus is meaningless until we see what the Democrats are going to come up with...besides the fact that it came in under 900 Billion because it doesn't have a public option!

All the merging of the bills will tell the tale. There still isn't support for the public option in the senate. It didn't make it in the Committee and the Democrats will be damaging their brand trying to force government control down the throats of Americans who want and need real reform NOT higher taxes, higher premiums and healthcare rationing.
 

D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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Michele Bachmann Issues New Warning About Government-Run Sex Clinics


Bachmann Repeats Sex Clinics In Schools Warning


For the second time in as many weeks, Rep. Michele Bachmann, (R-Minn.) insisted on Thursday that Democratic-conceived health care legislation would set up "school-based health clinics" encouraging promiscuous sexual behavior and dangerous medical procedures among the nation's youth.

Speaking on the House floor, the Minnesota Republican read a letter from a local constituent named Jamie, who at the age of 14 found herself popping morning-after pills, abusing birth control, lying to her parents about it all and skipping class to go back to the clinic. It's a generally horrid tale that would seem relevant if, in fact, it had anything to do with the current health care reform debate.

As Bachmann sees it, the legislation being considered by Democrats in Congress would allow the government to grant abortions on demand and bring groups like Planned Parenthood into education facilities. The section she refers to in the legislation, however, makes no mention of abortion at all.


YouTube - Rep. Bachmann & Sex Clinics: The Sequel#
 

FuzzyKen

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I never cease to be amazed at the arguments on this issue and sometimes for the unreasonable judgments coming from both sides of the coin.

What many fail to see here is that the only difference between an Obama -Biden ticket and a McCain-Palin ticket will be what is tabled or swept under the table.

The healthcare in this country for all but a few has been on a fast ride down the mountain for decades. My Stepfather was an MD. When he died in 1984 I had the joy of going in and against my greater desires doing all of the accounting to close out that office practice.

I looked at what money came in the door and I looked at what or how much went out the door. Standard Accounting practices easily proved that my Stepfather and Mother were not millionaires, nor with the trends at the time, would that be something likely to happen at all.

What was initially proposed was a place where free market competition would force inprovements or force private insurance carriers out of business. Nobody was planning on forcing private carriers out of business, the plan was to create a government based plan to compete against them.

What then came out in the barrage of baloney was that we were going to have government run health care for everybody. That statement was absolutely false and was designed to try and get the American People which are proving their loss of intelligence and increasing stupidity every day.

Private Corporate interests and those they control have learned that a successful campaign of complete disinformation will convince people of nearly anything.

The next thing that has taken place is that PAC's and Lobbiests for private insurance carriers have courted every vote they can get in order to defeat anything that would remove the monopoly and poor service we now have.

Most forget the one basic tenant in health care. Insurance Companies are publically held corporations with stock and stockholders. They have very highly paid CEO's and Corporate Officers. If the stock does not pay dividends to the stockholders the confidence in the CEO's declines and they can find themselves being replaced. The dividends are determined by the profit margins that that the Corporation has at the end of their financial year. In the past fourty years the emphasis in heatlth care is no longer the care of the insurance subscribers, the emphasis in that industry is now completely directed towards the corporate profits with little return on investment.

What these CEO's and Companies are seeking now is "ultimate power" where they dictate what improved health care will be. Anyone thinking that leaving the foxes in charge of the hen house is a good thing is either delusional or just plain stupid. Yet, many of our more conservative elected officials want to do just this.

When both parties made their choices for candidates for President, I groaned. On the conservative side we had a man who even by his own admission had voted with individuals who had made the greatest contribution to economic ruin in world history. To back him up and in fear of Hillary Clinton, the running mate that was chosen by the party was a dynamic effervescent airhead who had ties through marriage to "big oil", who had a questionable performance as Alaska Governor and who in her way of thinking also resembled the outgoing President.
John McCain was a liability because of his age and the pressure of the job. The running mate did not impress Americans. The vote was for the "other guy".

Of all of the more moderate or "progressive" candidates I saw available the last I would have picked personally was Barak Obama. He was an unknown on many levels, his name and background would make him a "target" his bi-racial heritage would be a rally to good for some and a rally to bad for others. Yet, he was in fact a brilliant man in his life in public service. His forte was for negotiation and listening to all sides before making judgment calls. What he failed to understand is that in his case the opposition only cared about what was good for Corporate America and the American citizens do not count in any manner. In the eyes of Corporate America the American Citizens can be influenced by disinformation so all we have to do is open the "disinformation" box, and kill anything good that the "progresive" individuals try and do.

The beginning of the decline in Health Care actually started during the Presidential Administration of Richard M. Nixon and has continued with promises from both sides in all of the administrations to follow.

The disasters of Wall Street and the high risk behavior also started many years ago. In order to be able to thwart common sense, Wall Street had to have people in regulatory positions that would turn their back on the whole thing and do nothing. If we look at that, the greatest percentage of people doing that were appointed by conservative adminstrations.

President Barak Obama is with little doubt one of the most embattled U.S. Presidents since that of Franklin Delano Roosevelt. What is sad here is that if you look at all of the things that happened which caused the crash and burn of 1929, you will see the same kind of behaviors and policies that caused our present situation.

Today information and disinformation technology is such that "special interst groups" (boy I hate those words) have greater power than ever before.

Most of the citizens of America want change. Most of Corporate America wants no change at all and they in addition want no watchdogs or regulations as to what they are doing.

The blame for the State of America goes not to Barak Obama, the blame for the State of America goes to all of us, It goes to the United States citizens who do not take the time to read the proposals and to those citizens who believe anything out of the mouths of any media outlet be it print, broadcast or via the Internet.

Early on in this thread a "Generation XYZ" blamed the "baby-boomers" for the plight we are in. Junior, I am sorry to inform you that if your generation had something constructive to offer and would bother to get out and vote, you would have then earned the right to criticize another generation. Also get your facts right. Most of the people who have created this by age are not "baby boomers". Most of those are people who placed money above all else and those came with the generations to follow.

This mess has been "under construction" with numerous political adminstrations over the last 40 years. Discussion of Universal Health Care started at the same time Medicare was formed and that was under the Administration of Lyndon B. Johnson. It was ignored by Nixon, it was ignored by Carter, it was ignored by Reagan, it was ignored by George H.W. Bush, it was ignored completely by everyone and shoved under the table until William Jefferson Clinton came in to office. Clinton was stonewalled and learned very quickly the power of those fighting for the status quo and Corporate Profits. He became imbattled and stupid when he let "weenie one" find it's way into a dumb girl who was used by his enemies to embroil his entire administration in controversy.

The basic logistics of the United States Congress and the United States Senate are such that even if the most brilliant solutions to healt care problems were proposed, it will take a minimum of two-years to take them anywhere.

Barak Obama has been in office a total of 10 months as of this point.

I feel that this man is trying, I however disagree completely with his approach as he refuses to get out the bat and play "hard-ball".

Barak Obama is not responsible for the National Debt and government spending. Again we need to look at the previous eight years to see who the culprits were there.

We need to take some time, do research and support change in all parts of the health care industry. Most importantly, we cannot allow the abusers and con artists to continue to run things as they have in the past.

The most important part however is that change does not start with a President or a Senator or Congressperson. Change starts with you and with me. As long as we "buy" political rhetoric presented as fact, and as long as we care more about special interests than we do about the American People the road we are on will never change. Corporate America will guarantee that fact.