A big Steaming Pile

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by MattMatt, Aug 28, 2006.

  1. MattMatt

    MattMatt New Member

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    My mom turned to me and said, " On 60 Minutes last night they said its a proven fact that the more boys you have, the more likely the last ones born, will be gay."

    Well I couldn't believe this and since my mom is gettin' pretty old, I just had to google it. This is the link.
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/09/60minutes/main1385230.shtml

    And here are some quotes from it;

    ""The more older brothers a man has, the greater that man's chance of being gay," says Bailey.

    for every older brother a man has, his chances of being gay increase by one third. Older sisters make no difference, and there's no corresponding effect for lesbians. A first-born son has about a 2 percent chance of being gay, and the numbers rise from there. The theory is it happens in the womb.

    If the boy is left-handed, if his brain is organized in a left-handed fashion, it doesn't matter how many older brothers he has""

    GRANTED I am no expert, but this seems to me to be the biggest pile of steaming crap I have heard in a long time. While reading the article a vision of CHAOS THEORY came into my mind, of some scientist watching "snow" on a tv screen LOOKING for messages from E.T. Why ? because you can find patterns in ANYTHING if you look long enough.

    To antagonize me even more.. the article went on to imply that the mother's frame of mind was the cause for an embryo to be gay. Why? Because the mom wanted a boy, though nature had wanted it to be a girl.

    Now I KNOW that if a mother is very nervous or stressed during pregnancy you can definitely see the results of that in the baby after its born, but to say that a mother's way of thinking can impose sexual preference?? Give me a break !

    Scientists are saying this, what say you ?
     
  2. jeff black

    jeff black <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    I say it is dumb. Purely random chance. Anyone can be gay. It doesn't matter how many siblings you have.
     
  3. Heather LouAnna

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    There can certainly be environmental factors that cause one to feel a certain way about their preferences, sexual or not. That is undeniable.

    I feel that genes or one's chromosomes can also play a part in one's preferences, it can also be anything. If they're announcing it on CBS, I would think that they've actual statistics to back it up. It can certainly be true. As a practising open bisexual, I take no "sides"......:rolleyes: nor am I biased in this discussion toward anything but the facts.


    Again: There can certainly be environmental factors that cause one to feel a certain way about their preferences, sexual or not. To argue beyond that is simply frivolous.
     
  4. dcwrestlefan

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    I've seen this. I wouldn't say it's a "steaming pile". Maybe some changes take place in a woman's body chemically after having a number of boys to make the later male babies more prone to homosexuality. They did not do any studies on women/lesbians I guess. I dunno. I am not a sex scientist. Er, well, not really. (just got a new idea for a bedroom game)

    The base of this debate can really get some gay people "hot under the collar", and I am not sure why. Because you come out different due to biological factors does not mean you are inferior or abnormal. Some people have blue eyes; some brown, etc. Some are gay, some straight and some in between.

    I've never understood how "environment" can make someone gay. I don't think sexual orientation, the way you FEEL, is changeable, unless something traumatic happens perhaps. If a straight guy moves from Alabama to San Francisco, will that "environment" turn him gay? There ARE straights in SFO. :smile:

    I think if you go through life being straight, and suddenly start having same sex relations, something was there all along that was just not acted upon. Maybe if you are molested as a child or treated badly by males at a young age, in some cases, you may seek that "love" in another way later in life. Again, pure speculation on my part. I've seen gays come from all walks of life and all sorts of family situations.

    BTW, I do not fit the mold for this story. I have 3 older sisters and no brothers.

    Other opinions very welcome. Being gay, I do find the subject interesting and I don't have definite answers.
     
  5. D_Gunther Snotpole

    D_Gunther Snotpole Account Disabled

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    I think the suggestion was that the mother's immune system reacted to her first male fetus's 'Y' chromosome (which obviously wouldn't happen with a female fetus, who lacks this chromosome).

    That chromosome could be considered a foreign agent by her immune system -- and her production of antibodies would go up each time she carried another male fetus.

    Yes, it sounds a bit farfetched, but the story said that this result had been replicated by many studies.

    So maybe it's just a surprising natural fact.

    Nothing said that the first male child couldn't be gay, and nothing said that ninth or tenth child, say, necessarily would be.
     
  6. Pecker

    Pecker Retired Moderator
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    Yeah, right. Ask Dan Rather about that.

    Statistics, God bless 'em, can be skewered any which way according to one's purpose.
     
  7. Heather LouAnna

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    Are you saying that someone can dislike fish their entire life, but then find themselves stranded on an island and never learn to love fish?

    Are you saying that someone can be straight their entire life, but then find themselves in prison for life, and never learn to love the flesh of the same sex?

    Are you saying that someone raised to hate "niggers" their entire life, but then find themselves living next to a kindly black woman can't find their own boundaries breaking down with time?

    It's an undeniable fact that some likes and dislikes are learned behaviors. Gratned, all the scenarios I've given seen far fetched, but to a straight person..turning gay also seems far fetched.

    Which would be why I worded it indirectly, as in "I would think....."
     
  8. dcwrestlefan

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    nope. did not say that.

    nope. did not say that either. think if you are in prison and have no other outlet, perhaps they go for what is there. it's not what they REALLY want though given a choice.

    how does this relate to sexual orientation. people choose to hate people because of their color or whatever. their parents might have taught them this, but they can change it. people DO NOT choose sexual orientation.
    personally, i did not wake up one day and think "hmm. there are girls and guys. which one should i go for?"

    yes, some are. we are not in disagreement, but you seem to think so. homosexuality is NOT a learned behavior. i can't teach someone to like guys. this is one thing the christian right uses to say how we are evil because we want to "corrupt people". if there is a method, i am unaware of it. no one taught me to be gay. i found it on my own because it is who i am. whether it's biological or environmental is open for debate, though my leaning is toward the biological mostly, but not in all cases.

    love, the kind and gentle dc.
     
  9. dcwrestlefan

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    dan was standing on the seawall in galveston during hurricane carla in 1961. he must know what he is talking about. :biggrin1:

    signed, kind and gentle dc.
     
  10. novice_btm

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    You beat me to it. Yes, this is the dominant theory on why it occurs. And that's also the point. It's not just a theory that it COULD happen, it seems to be a trend that it IS happening, and it's the only explanation that they finding.
     
  11. headbang8

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    I'm the eldest, and my younger brother is straight. We beat the odds.

    That said, I'm kind of a fan of the oestrogen-wash theory. I was conceived on my parents honeymoon, an arduous car trip, after a hasty wedding and huge family pressure and angst. If oestrogen (or some other combination of hormones that has the same effect) is released in response to stress, then my mother was surely a candidate. My brother was conceived ten months later, when life had settled down.

    Do large families of boys stress a mother out?
     
  12. D_Elijah_MorganWood

    D_Elijah_MorganWood New Member

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    I'm the oldest.
     
  13. hypolimnas

    hypolimnas Well-Known Member

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    Well I would be the first to say that stats are important to understand how things work sometimes. It is can often be difficult to make meaningful generalisations however.

    Off the top of my head I can think of nine close friends who are the oldest boys in their families, and who are happy to call themselves gay. I know very few younger brothers who are gay if any. Anecdotal? Yes. What does it mean? Who really cares?
     
  14. Gillette

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    I imagine that it would simply out of fear for their survival. Boys of all ages seem much more likely than girls to engage in the kind of "Hey guys! Watch this!" activities that would earn an adult a Darwin Award.
     
  15. Gillette

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    Yes, well explained.
    I remember seeing something about this study years ago. I think it was being done out of U of T. The hypothesis seems like it could be feasable, who knows. Clearly more study needs to be done before this will have credibiliity. Until then, *shrugs*.



    As to the suggestion of learned behavior, I don't think it is a factor of homosexuality. My understanding of someone being gay is that it is primarily an emotional drive, guiding that person to relationships with people of the same sex.

    Anyone can learn to find enjoyment in the only option left to them, but I'm betting that if you got the guy stranded on the island back to dry land, first thing he'll do is eat the fattest juiciest steak he can get his hands on.

    We want what we want, regardless of whatever else we've learned to appreciate.
     
  16. Heather LouAnna

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    As a psychology student, I disagree entirely. I fyou've done any research on basic thought, you would understand this concept fully.
     
  17. D_Elijah_MorganWood

    D_Elijah_MorganWood New Member

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    Proclivities must be preexisting. Let's use the Kinsey Scale for purposes of definition. If someone is a Kinsey 0 or 1, it's highly unlikely if not impossible for them to develop a taste for the same sex, no matter how attractive the palate may be. If someone is say, a Kinsey 5 and has exclusively heterosexual physical relationships, his/her nature is unchanged. The individual is simply a nonpracticing homosexual, not a straight person.

    Homosexuality is not a learned behavior although the fundies would like us to believe otherwise.

    As much of the board already knows, I was a Psychology student too. After college I worked in my field in areas directly relating to this subject. I found Transgenders to be the most interesting.
     
  18. D_Humper E Bogart

    D_Humper E Bogart New Member

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    Sorry guys, it's trick statistics.

    Think about it. If you keep having an infinate number of babies..eventually one of them is going to be gay!

    Sorted.

    Might as well say "The older you are, the more likely you are to die of old age".
     
  19. fortiesfun

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    Actually, this turns out to be pretty good science. What the study shows is that there is a correlation between the number of "natural" older brothers and the likelihood that one will report a higher number of the Kinsey scale. (They did, indeed, use the 7 point scale instead of a gay/straight "either/or" forced choice.)

    The authors of the study do not claim to show any causal mechanism for this phenomenon, pointing out correctly that we don't know what causes any sexual orientation. The speculations included in this thread are in wide-spread circulation and are interesting hypotheses about causality, but they are being made secondhand by those trying to understand the implications of the results, not by those who did the original study.

    The comparison group (control) for this particular conclusion was men who had older sisters, older half-brothers via the father, and older adopted siblings. That is, men who had older siblings who were not fully biological older brothers.

    Because the effect only shows up in men with older "natural" brothers, or half-brothers with whom they share a mother, what is implied is that the predisposition toward homosexuality is biological to a great degree. Because there is no correlation in men who were raised with older "siblings" in the house not born to their mother, the likelihood that their orientation is caused by circumstances of upbringing start looking remote.

    This thoroughly replicated study is one of the strongest pieces of evidence that men do not choose their sexual orientation, but that it is biologically predetermined.

    I must respectfully disagree with Orcabomber and others that it is trick statistics. It is a highly controlled study, but you have to pay attention to what it does and doesn't say. For the record, however, even the authors ackowledge that the increasing likelihood of a high Kinsey number with each additional older brother breaks down at some point short of having twelve older brothers, when using their formula, the probability would exceed 100%.

    I know this thread has been dormant for several days now, but it seemed worth reviving so that we do not unnecessarily discard one of the most important pieces of evidence we have about whether or not homosexuality is a "choice" just because the science is hard.

    The statistics check out, and the evidence strongly indicates that sexual orientation is not chosen, but is biologically based.
     
  20. Jentl

    Jentl Member

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    I think it's pretty logic; statisticly, one in 10 people is gay (both men and women) so by deduction, it's a given fact that, the more children you have, the more (statistic) chance there is one of them will be gay.

    And the most accepted global view on how gay people come to be gay is this at the moment; the mother is the carrier of a 'gay-gene' which would be activated - or not - by certain hormone levels during her 5th (not sure about the exact month any more) month of pregnancy.
     
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