A bill so reckless that it has to be rammed through on a partisan vote on xmas eve

Discussion in 'Politics' started by faceking, Dec 21, 2009.

  1. faceking

    faceking Active Member

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    A decent WSJ piece...

    A Reckless Health Care Bill That Nobody Believes In - WSJ.com

    this piece reminds why I don't even need to look at the details... as this whole thing is summarized:

    "Yet some 98% of the total cost comes after 2014—remind us why there must absolutely be a vote this week—and most of the taxes start in 2010. "

    Why can't this be vetted??? This is huge, yet there is rush to decide for something that is years away? That should make any common person suspicious...

    Mr. Obama promised a new era of transparent good government, yet on Saturday morning Mr. Reid threw out the 2,100-page bill that the world's greatest deliberative body spent just 17 days debating and replaced it with a new "manager's amendment" that was stapled together in covert partisan negotiations.

    Again, the rush...

    The rushed, secretive way that a bill this destructive and unpopular is being forced on the country shows that "reform" has devolved into the raw exercise of political power for the single purpose of permanently expanding the American entitlement state.

    Never in our memory has so unpopular a bill been on the verge of passing Congress, never has social and economic legislation of this magnitude been forced through on a purely partisan vote, and never has a party exhibited more sheer political willfulness that is reckless even for Washington or had more warning about the consequences of its actions.



    although it's good to see that this is the nail in the coffin, I'm far more concerned in the disaster this will create... (see: Social Security never topping 2%, Medicare, et al). look for the explosion of "contractors" from big banks down to Walmart....

    I guess since the Swedish populus of 8million ppl, fierce immigration policy, and external military protective have done nationalized healthcare perfect.. so can the US.
     
  2. nedpickle

    nedpickle New Member

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    We are screwed. The Dems will be cutting they're own throats on Christmas eve.
     
  3. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    Democrats reached out to the opposition, pandered to their demands for almost a year and they still said no. Two words... fuck 'em.
     
  4. Stretch

    Stretch New Member

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    You have an obvious agenda Faceking so there's no point in serious debate. Nedpickle?...Who are we?...and what do you have against healthcare for everybody?
     
  5. Wyldgusechaz

    Wyldgusechaz New Member

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    No one is against health care for all as long as each person pays his own way.

    Medicare cost $10000/retiree so if you are willing to pay $900 premium jump all over it.

    This guy wrote an letter to the WSJ about how the European au pairs that he used to hire would brag about their free health care. Then every chance they had, they went to the Mall of America to stock up on shoes and jeans. He asked them why and they said because those same jeans and shoes would cost 4 times as much in Europe.

    Young healthy people in America are going to getting ass raped in this deal and I will laugh my head off. They are getting screwed by Social Security and now they are REALLY going to be hosed. Obama and Pelosi are th most reckless spenders in history and I find it hysterical that they are saddling the very people who voted him in with a mind boggling debt.

    A middle aged guy like me will get richer and it will be on the backs of you dumb ass young liberals. What fun!
     
  6. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    How proud of yourself you must be! And here we thought things like, "compassionate conservatism," were real. I'm shocked, SHOCKED! to find they aren't!

    Don't be surprised if you find your doorknocker turning into the face of a dead friend when you come home Thursday night. I won't ruin the rest for you.
     
  7. Stretch

    Stretch New Member

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    Really?...that's your post? Spelling and grammar aside I can't imagine a better spokesman then you. Your incise analysis of the American/European dynamic and the fate of young people is beyond reproach. Your astute observation of the Obama/Pelosi spending debacle is revelatory. Can I help you to reach the proper authorities? Have you tried to at least send an email with your solutions? I can only assume you've tried your hardest...seeing how much you care. Actually, thinking about it, you might not want them to figure it out...lest you not enjoy being a middle aged guy getting rich on the backs of all those dumb ass young liberals. You must be very proud of yourself. :smile: Have fun!
     
  8. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    Don't be fooled by the ignorance spewing from the Wyld. Underneath it all, this so-called "middle aged man" is pissed that his ideology of America is crumbling before his eyes, along with his bank account and whatever last remaining bits of credibility he has on this board. I'm sure out of his desperate bits for attention he'll create a few more threads encouraging academic racism, as well as another fictional story about how he was "the man" at some mysterious brothel where women are desperate to be fucked by a bigot.

    And to think... all we had to do to make this freak go insane is put a black man in the White House with a Democratic majority. Wow... we should have done this sooner! :biggrin1: :rolleyes:
     
  9. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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    Fingers crossed:

    Ben Smith, Politico.com:

    Dems anticipate a health care bounce

    There's no point in the White House saying this, so it won't.

    But an official predicted to me the other day that Obama's numbers would hit 60 after the health care bill passes, and Chuck Schumer seems to think roughly the same thing: that the public polling on the Democratic reform bill will turn around "soon."

    When people see what is in this bill and when people see what it does, they will come around," Schumer said. "The reason people are negative is not the substance of the bill, but the fears that the opponents have laid out. When those fears don't materialize, and people see the good in the bill, the numbers are going to go up."
     
  10. Ericsson1228d

    Ericsson1228d Member

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    Reached out to who? By not inviting the Repubs to meetings even?

    Pandered to who? The holdout WHORES in their own party?

    Are you even slightly aware of what has been happening?
     
  11. Ericsson1228d

    Ericsson1228d Member

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    AGREED. As do increasing numbers of independents who voted for B. Hussein Obama.
     
  12. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    One of these days, you'll learn that you can't just source your favorite blogs before debating me. Or, you won't and I'll continually trounce on your nonsense to the sadistic, evil delight of myself. :rolleyes:

    Republicans have been involved with the process since day one. You can try and distort some mindless story about how Olympia Snow wasn't invited to a meeting as to being some kind of betrayal to bipartisanship and polarization (because pathetic hacks such as yourself will do anything to portray an image of political purity & innocence), however, NOBODY can say that Democrats did not try to reach out to the other side for ideas without looking like an uninformed idiot.

    Republicans had their chance to be serious. Instead, they pandered to the cries from the lunatic fringes with their tea parties, death panels and birthergate. And let's not even suggest that their decisions to obstruct aren't tainted by the influence and financial compensations from insurance and drug companies. We know that every politician, regardless of the party lines, have slept with the enemy here. But right now, the Dems are in power. Just like when the GOP was in power a few years ago, the minority has to work harder to make their voices heard and see their ideas come to light. We'll count every individual politician who is responsible for this mess in the Senate, even though I'm sure you'll just go along with your usual "one bad apple" bullshit.

    I'll say it again... fuck 'em.

    More than you'll ever be.
    What part of reconciliation do you not get? What part of the actual Legislative process escapes your pathetic little mind to suggest that everything we've seen proposed in the Senate bill will actually be in the final version? If you actually knew all of the steps necessary to pass a bill to begin with, then you wouldn't be such a whore for all of the clucking coming from the fringes. We still have a way to go even if the Senate bill gets signed. But you're too stupid to figure that out and foam at the mouth to spew your polarizing nonsense, so here's the process explained in such a way that even a 5th Grader could follow it.

    But don't worry... there won't be a quiz. You've already failed at life so I wouldn't want to embarrass you further. Educate yourself and then kindly shut your hole.
     
    #12 B_VinylBoy, Dec 22, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2009
  13. Flashy

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    well, in all fairness VB, the democrats had two major initiatives when they fucked up in the past on this when there was much more room for compromise...

    Ted Kennedy himself had always said his greatest regret legislatively/politically was not cutting a deal with Richard Nixon on universal health care.

    and even Bill Clinton has always pointed to and regretted that he didn't take up Sen. John Chafee (one of the most moderate republicans around) on a compromise that would have secured passage of a health-care bill early on in his term.

    as for what the democrats are doing now, they are doing more then saying "fuck em" to merely the equally obnoxious and incompetent republicans...they are making the massive mistake of saying "fuck em", to the american people...the majority of whom are against this absolute mess of a deal.

    between now and the eventual attempt at reconcilliation, things are going to get uglier and uglier...but my guess is, enough people in congress, will feel enough pressure from the voters, that some, will simply not be able to vote for the bill, be they in the House or Senate...the margins are too small, the risks far too high, and the pressure will be far too severe...

    Nelson in the senate, if he votes for the eventual bill, will be going against the sentiments of his constituents, who are running at a close to 70% disapproval of the bill.

    this thing is not over, and will get even uglier.

    and it should, because this is a terrible bill, in every sense.

    they cannot even agree on how to pay for it (House and Senate)...the senate is against the surtax on the wealthy, which is how the house wants to pay for it, and the House is against the tax on Cadillac health plans, because of its potential to hurt the Unions.

    it is a masterclass in the true meaning of the word "clusterfuck"

    i am of the opinion, as an economics focused person first and foremost, that when you are about to take over 1/6th of the US economy, which will have ramifications and waves that will affect the other 5/6ths of the economy, you better do more than come up with some imperfect mess...you better get it right...because the results could be beyond catastrophic.

    it should be scrapped, and started over. you can do this with some little pilot program where the consequences are not dire...but this is absolutely dangerous in the most severe sense of the word.
     
  14. B_Nick8

    B_Nick8 New Member

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    It's spelled "their". And this bill is positively ridiculous. I'm thoroughly disgusted.
     
  15. B_spiker067

    B_spiker067 New Member

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    I can't believe some states get to cut deals. That is unequal treatment of U.S. citizens and should be illegal if it isn't.

    Reid: "You aren't from Nebraska or Louisiana so you must pay more taxes."
     
  16. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    You do have a good point, Flashy... the bill that is now on the table from the Senate is definitely messed up. No single payer, no public option, not even a Medicare buy-in although it still requires people to have insurance or pay a penalty. Plus, no caps on how much private insurers can raise rates on the elderly and people with pre-existing conditions. We could go on and talk about Nelson's "free Medicaid in Nebraska" as well. The Senate bill as it currently stands is pathetic.

    But politically, here's how I'm seeing things. To "kill the bill & start over" is essentially what the opposition wants to do. Their stall tactics are in place to protect their own self interests in the health insurance & prescription drug companies as well as to win back seats in 2010 and defeat Obama in 2012. Why else would John McCain go on record saying that for the first time he agrees with Howard Dean as if that's supposed to be some "noble gesture" of a bipartisan nature? It's not as if Dean just wants to block the bill to help the Republicans score a shallow victory. Seeing just how big of a mess the Senate is right now, do we really want to keep this fiasco going for another year with the same faces, same voices, same nonsense? Beyond that, what would the opposition use as their catalyst if the bill was killed in the Senate right now... more pathetic rhetoric about Obama being a "do nothing President", how the Democrats with their mass majorities couldn't even do a single thing in Congress? I think even you must be sick of the bullshit emitting from the fringes by now.

    Even if the Senate bill passes, we still have two more areas where the bill can be changed and improved on. We still have reconciliation to consider, where people from both the House & Senate will have to come together with the President to make the best out of both bills. If that's the case, then some form of a Public Option is still in play since one exists on the House bill among other things. They can also work on some of the twisted language of the bill so that it does give consumers a choice and eliminates some of the unnecessary backscratching for certain politicians. This is also where Obama could finally chime in with his ideas (if he has any) and it be more than just a campaign speech. Whatever comes out of reconciliation has to pass through the House & Senate again anyhow, and if by some miracle it passes you can bet that opposition will try to repeatedly amend it especially since many of the provisions brought forth in the bill don't even kick in for several years. On the other hand, if the bill manages to get worse Obama still has the power of his veto if he decides to use it. At that point the House & Senate would both need a 2/3rd vote and we all know it would never get to that level given the current, volatile & polarized nature of Congress.

    Looking at things from this angle, we can all see that there's still room for improvement (or for things to get worse) and we can still "kill the bill" somewhere else down the line if it got to that point. We don't have to do it right now and the current administration knows this. That's why I adamantly say "fuck 'em" to the opposition in the Senate. Regardless of the shady deals being conducted by some of the Democrats among their own to seal 60 votes at this stage in the game, the other side has been equally as shady with their repeated fear mongering & stall tactics. I mean, do we need to hear more of Senator Grassley's half-truths as he echoes distorted, regurgitated numerical stats from studies conducted by the insurance companies, written in a way to show that Health Care Reform is bad when everyone here agrees that something needs to be done? Do we need to have Palin & friends going around screaming "death panel" much to the dismay of the easily duped all because it's become their ultimate reactionary buzzword? More PrayerCasts conducted by unethical preachers? More picket signs asking for Obama to keep his socialist hands off their Medicare?

    I'm not saying that what the Democrats are doing is perfect, even though there are some simple minded folk that will instantly jump to that conclusion. People like Senator Nelson and others need to be called out for their blatant manipulation of the system if only on an ethical level. But I would rather see something come out of all this where it may not be perfect but it gets the ball rolling since the Congress can always make adjustments later. Sometimes, it's best for a new group of people with a fresh set of ears & eyes to assess the situation after a previous one has done so for so long. Unless you have it set in your mind that the process is only going to get worse and bringing the bill to reconciliation will only favor the insurance companies, then there's no real reason beyond the hype to stop the process. Do we stop basketball games in the third quarter if one team is behind by more than 20 points?

    If you need more reasoning behind this belief, all we have to do is look at the issue surrounding Gays in the Military. Gays & lesbians whined and complained when Clinton didn't come through and enabled DADT. But underneath the surface, it was a step in the right direction because now we have a president who may be able to eliminate the ban altogether. But I digress...

    I'm ready to move on, as well as many other people in this country. Let's go to the next step and take this issue out of the hands of the inept in the Senate.
     
    #16 B_VinylBoy, Dec 22, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2009
  17. tripod

    Gold Member

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    Who is taking over the health care industry? The bill doesn't take control of the industry by any means. Are you serious with the whole "Government Take-Over" of health care" shtick?

    As a stockholder and a member of the "investment class", you should be popping open Champagne and rejoicing that more of the hard earned wages of the middle classes will be funneled into the bank accounts of the likes of you and your Wall Street buddies.

    Don't you have stock in insurance companies and the health care industry? You should be as happy as a pig in a poke.
     
  18. houtx48

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    750m dollars spent by the insurance industry so far on lobbying, looks like the senate and executive branches of government can be bought.
     
  19. thadjock

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    oh come on guys, look at the plus side!

    this bill makes a fantastic christmas gift for the insurance companies, and to be honest i really had no clue what to get mine. they've already got my money.

    i think it was Tripod who suggested in another thread that the only way to get their attention is to stop paying all healthcare insurance premiums and just show up at emergency rooms when you're sick.....

    civil disobedience, when our representative gov't fails us that's the only opition we have left.

    well the other one involves weapons and i want some more time to stockpile a bigger cache than i have now b4 we go there , OK?
     
  20. ZOS23xy

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    What's wrong with passage, and subsequent revision? Seems to me a democratic society has to work this way?
     
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