A bill so reckless that it has to be rammed through on a partisan vote on xmas eve

[jason_els]

the first thing insurance cos. are going to do once they're forced to take on all the "bad risks" and can't descriminate by charging them more, is pass on that expense to everybody else in the form of higher premiums.

hey, you mean i get to pay more because my insurance co. can no longer pick and choose who they insure? great!! sign me up!!

and "...substantial financial aid..." will come from tax dollars, my tax dollars.

so i actually get to pay for other people's insurance in two different ways now instead of just my own, great!! sign me up!!!

You already do. You pay for the fire department. You pay for the police department. You pay for schools. All things you probably have NEVER used well maybe school. It's too bad you have to pay to put fires out you didn't start or for police calls that you didn't make. Or for schools you have no kids in. What a goddamn shame.

You're already paying for me and millions like me in the form of Medicaid, Medicare, and welfare. When I got ill and didn't have insurance I spent everything I had, having to go broke to get Medicaid. I tried to buy low-income state-sponsored insurance before this happened but I made too much money for them while making too little to afford the $800 bare bones policy Empire Blue Cross offered. Now all my savings are gone and I won't be able to get coverage for my cancer treatment when I'm again able to work even if I get on an employer-sponsored plan because of pre-existing condition limitations. I won't be able to buy a private plan either because nobody will sell me one; I'm a bad risk.

So rather than my IRA being there for when I'm too old to work, rather than keeping my savings and working and paying taxes, under the current system I'm stuck being a burden for people like you. If I lived in any other industrialized country in the world, this wouldn't be an issue. I'd have my savings, my IRA, and I could legally work at least somewhat. I might be costing more than I'm contributing but, fate willing, I'll beat this and be able to work again. Only I can't because there's no way to afford the out-of-pocket expenses for my treatments and diagnostics.

As I'm fond of telling people who don't think health care reform is necessary, either way you're going to pay and paying for someone like me is a hell of a lot more costly to you paying for food stamps, SSI, Medicaid, and disability with NO hope of ever breaking out of that situation for the rest of my life unless I win the lottery.

 

[thadjock]

As I'm fond of telling people who don't think health care reform is necessary, either way you're going to pay and paying for someone like me is a hell of a lot more costly to you paying for food stamps, SSI, Medicaid, and disability with NO hope of ever breaking out of that situation for the rest of my life unless I win the lottery.

i'm well aware that i pay for your (and all the other uninsurable's)
healthcare through the taxes i pay, and the higher emergency room and doctor's fees i incur, because they have to recover the costs of care given to people unable to pay.

the point I'm trying to get across is that when you (all uninsureds) are moved onto a private insurance company's books, they WILL pass the expense along to the other policy holders, BUT my taxes will NOT GO DOWN because of that.

So, because of this bill, the net cost for me to buy insurance WILL go up, regardless of what efficiencies you may assert will occur from you being covered privately. I would much rather have had everyone who can't buy insurance rolled into medicare or medicaid, through a buy-in or whatever mechanism you want

at least with a gov't run plan there are elected officials who are at some point conceivably accountable to their constituents, with my pvt insurance company they can screw me and there's no recourse, because they all collude to fix the market place. where's the anti-trust league when u need them?

i have no problem with sharing the cost to get everybody insured, but with this bill i will pay 2x.

 

[deleted15807]

You're already paying for me and millions like me in the form of Medicaid, Medicare, and welfare. When I got ill and didn't have insurance I spent everything I had, having to go broke to get Medicaid. I tried to buy low-income state-sponsored insurance before this happened but I made too much money for them while making too little to afford the $800 bare bones policy Empire Blue Cross offered. Now all my savings are gone and I won't be able to get coverage for my cancer treatment when I'm again able to work even if I get on an employer-sponsored plan because of pre-existing condition limitations. I won't be able to buy a private plan either because nobody will sell me one; I'm a bad risk.

So rather than my IRA being there for when I'm too old to work, rather than keeping my savings and working and paying taxes, under the current system I'm stuck being a burden for people like you. If I lived in any other industrialized country in the world, this wouldn't be an issue. I'd have my savings, my IRA, and I could legally work at least somewhat. I might be costing more than I'm contributing but, fate willing, I'll beat this and be able to work again. Only I can't because there's no way to afford the out-of-pocket expenses for my treatments and diagnostics.

As I'm fond of telling people who don't think health care reform is necessary, either way you're going to pay and paying for someone like me is a hell of a lot more costly to you paying for food stamps, SSI, Medicaid, and disability with NO hope of ever breaking out of that situation for the rest of my life unless I win the lottery.

Your story is a tragic story that I've seen too many times with friends and relatives. To be in a situation where you have to get rid of everything you own just to qualify for insurance and at the same time suffering from a very dangerous and deadly disease. And unless you've experienced it or gone through it with someone most people can never comprehend how heartbreaking it is. The country seems to have lost the ability to have empathy. I never thought it would become so Easy To Be Hard.

 

[finsuptx]

I can't believe some states get to cut deals. That is unequal treatment of U.S. citizens and should be illegal if it isn't.

Reid: "You aren't from Nebraska or Louisiana so you must pay more taxes."

That's politics, and when they're done arguing and twisting Senate rules just for dramatic purposes, they'll gather in the cloak room for a few gulps of scotch while they pat each other on the back, Republican, Democrat or so-called Independents all-alike, all they cared about was the ensemble cast from both sides of the isle played to the American audience and some of them might just keep their jobs after mid-terms.

Kick every last worthless, lazy, self-serving bastard out of office. Most of them were asleep at the switch when they let Wall Street fracture our entire economy, and threatened to drag the rest of the world down with us. Minimally negligent, and self-righteous about it. Most of them voted against the war, before they voted for the war, before they with-held funding for the troops, and then gave it to them after too many good men had died. The wars still rage on, and many of us are out of work and hurting, through no fault of our own, while these bilious bastards still have their plush offices, pork for their state and you can damn-well-bet cash lining their own pockets with the stench of Lobbyist.

Get rid of every single one of them who is in office when the mid-terms come up. Throw out every incumbent at every election until your old and grey. Until We The People take back our Declaration of Independence and enforce term limits thru elections, we cannot claim to live in a Land of The Free... and there's nothing Brave about selling out, ever.

 

[Wyldgusechaz]

How proud of yourself you must be! And here we thought things like, "compassionate conservatism," were real. I'm shocked, SHOCKED! to find they aren't!

Don't be surprised if you find your doorknocker turning into the face of a dead friend when you come home Thursday night. I won't ruin the rest for you.

Ooooh, scary. Wyldgusescrooge.

If the insurance companies, and the longshoremen and the drug companies, and Nebraska, and Iowa and every other pork sucker can carve out his own piece of the pie, why can't I or any other intelligent person. Why should i care about dopes that voted for fiscally irresponsible thieves?

Nobody minds sharing a burden if every other person shares equally with you. I don't. However this is a liberal con job and young people are getting crushed. Any young person that does not vote for a fiscally conservative candidate or platform (and it does not have to be Republican it can be Green or Libertarian) deserves to be screwed over by someone smarter than them. Me. The National debt is now $40000 per every man woman and child. Who has to pay it back? America's youth. There are only 2 ways to reduce the real cost of that debt: 1) Young people pay it back with their blood sweat and tears or 2) cheapen the dollar so much that only people with hard assets like me will prosper.

Young people thought the Dems and Obama would change things for the better. What saps. What suckers. What losers. Iran pissed in his face, N Korea pissed in his face, We are still in Iraq, we have done nothing about Guantanamo, there is no public option, he is weakening education, he has increased joblessness, Wall Street is getting richer!!!!!, young people's debt burden in unfathomable, there has been no tax increase on the rich, he has not touched capital gains tax, gee whiz the Dems are taxing tanning booths LOL but not botox, as if tanning booths represent change we can believe in, too funny, he got the Nobel peace prize and then bombed Yemen, He is lost in Afghanistan, cap and trade is dead, the Copenhagen Global Warming conference was funnier than 30 Rock, (did you read the knee slapper that the leading limo company in Denmark had to find gas guzzling stretch limos for all the attendees, having to drive them from France and Germany at enormous carbon cost, while only 4 delegates of these 1000s so called GW experts asked for hybrids "Let them eat cake" , Banks are lending money at 5% and paying interest on bank deposits at 1%, and now all Nebraska's Medicaid bills will be paid by you, the American youth, not Nebraskans. Small business is being squashed by Obama, Reid and Pelosi.

Where is the change? Where are people better off than one year before? You neo-rads are sheep and you are getting sheared, by the very people you trusted. I LOVE IT! And sharp financially astute guys just get richer. On your poor dumb ass backs. I bought 5000 shares of Bank America stock when it was 4 and based on a blurb by Flashy sold it at 16. Some guy named Tepper made himself $3.5 BILLION by doing the same. Basically guaranteed by you. YOU insured my profits. There was no risk really although there should have been. Goldman Sachs, who helped create this meltdown, had a $16 billion dollar bonus pool for its employees while unemployment is 10.5%.

Is that really the change you voted for?

 

[JTalbain]

at least with a gov't run plan there are elected officials who are at some point conceivably accountable to their constituents, with my pvt insurance company they can screw me and there's no recourse, because they all collude to fix the market place. where's the anti-trust league when u need them?

Hanging their heads in annoyance over the fact that Health Insurance companies are immune to anti-trust laws.

 

[Flashy]

Who is taking over the health care industry? The bill doesn't take control of the industry by any means. Are you serious with the whole "Government Take-Over" of health care" shtick?

As a stockholder and a member of the "investment class", you should be popping open Champagne and rejoicing that more of the hard earned wages of the middle classes will be funneled into the bank accounts of the likes of you and your Wall Street buddies.

Don't you have stock in insurance companies and the health care industry? You should be as happy as a pig in a poke.

and your useless, uninformed and ignorant screed is a prime example of why i use my brain and work in the financial markets, and you use your biceps and throw drunk people out of bars.

 

[Flashy]

I bought 5000 shares of Bank America stock when it was 4 and based on a blurb by Flashy sold it at 16. Some guy named Tepper made himself $3.5 BILLION by doing the same. Basically guaranteed by you. YOU insured my profits. There was no risk really although there should have been. Goldman Sachs, who helped create this meltdown, had a $16 billion dollar bonus pool for its employees while unemployment is 10.5%.

that was nice of me. :biggrin1:

i am having one of my best years ever, strictly due to investing in the financial stocks back around the low, and i am pretty much almost all cash at the moment after gradually scaling out over the past couple of months.

the financial stocks back in the spring were the best bets i made since the dot coms, wireless, biotechs and cisco/dell were in their ascent back in the mid 90s...

frankly, with the government virtually guaranteeing your investment, you really could not lose badly at all, and the upside, as has been proven, in the event of a turnaround, was boundless.

only downside is that the profits will be taxed at your regular cap gains rate since the period was so short.

that said, between the financials and then my nibblings in the gold market back in the low 800s before the near 50% rise, i am done for quite a while...

i am pretty much all cash now, and i am going to sink most of it into munis for quite awhile....when you have been lucky enough to have this big of a run, best to walk away, and sit on the bench for awhile.

i will happily take my 5% or so from the munis, for the forseeable future, as i doubt we'll see another buying opportunity like we had in last spring for a while

 

[Flashy]

You do have a good point, Flashy... the bill that is now on the table from the Senate is definitely messed up. No single payer, no public option, not even a Medicare buy-in although it still requires people to have insurance or pay a penalty. Plus, no caps on how much private insurers can raise rates on the elderly and people with pre-existing conditions. We could go on and talk about Nelson's "free Medicaid in Nebraska" as well. The Senate bill as it currently stands is pathetic.

But politically, here's how I'm seeing things. To "kill the bill & start over" is essentially what the opposition wants to do. Their stall tactics are in place to protect their own self interests in the health insurance & prescription drug companies as well as to win back seats in 2010 and defeat Obama in 2012. Why else would John McCain go on record saying that for the first time he agrees with Howard Dean as if that's supposed to be some "noble gesture" of a bipartisan nature? It's not as if Dean just wants to block the bill to help the Republicans score a shallow victory. Seeing just how big of a mess the Senate is right now, do we really want to keep this fiasco going for another year with the same faces, same voices, same nonsense? Beyond that, what would the opposition use as their catalyst if the bill was killed in the Senate right now... more pathetic rhetoric about Obama being a "do nothing President", how the Democrats with their mass majorities couldn't even do a single thing in Congress? I think even you must be sick of the bullshit emitting from the fringes by now.

Even if the Senate bill passes, we still have two more areas where the bill can be changed and improved on. We still have reconciliation to consider, where people from both the House & Senate will have to come together with the President to make the best out of both bills. If that's the case, then some form of a Public Option is still in play since one exists on the House bill among other things. They can also work on some of the twisted language of the bill so that it does give consumers a choice and eliminates some of the unnecessary backscratching for certain politicians. This is also where Obama could finally chime in with his ideas (if he has any) and it be more than just a campaign speech. Whatever comes out of reconciliation has to pass through the House & Senate again anyhow, and if by some miracle it passes you can bet that opposition will try to repeatedly amend it especially since many of the provisions brought forth in the bill don't even kick in for several years. On the other hand, if the bill manages to get worse Obama still has the power of his veto if he decides to use it. At that point the House & Senate would both need a 2/3rd vote and we all know it would never get to that level given the current, volatile & polarized nature of Congress.

Looking at things from this angle, we can all see that there's still room for improvement (or for things to get worse) and we can still "kill the bill" somewhere else down the line if it got to that point. We don't have to do it right now and the current administration knows this. That's why I adamantly say "fuck 'em" to the opposition in the Senate. Regardless of the shady deals being conducted by some of the Democrats among their own to seal 60 votes at this stage in the game, the other side has been equally as shady with their repeated fear mongering & stall tactics. I mean, do we need to hear more of Senator Grassley's half-truths as he echoes distorted, regurgitated numerical stats from studies conducted by the insurance companies, written in a way to show that Health Care Reform is bad when everyone here agrees that something needs to be done? Do we need to have Palin & friends going around screaming "death panel" much to the dismay of the easily duped all because it's become their ultimate reactionary buzzword? More PrayerCasts conducted by unethical preachers? More picket signs asking for Obama to keep his socialist hands off their Medicare?

I'm not saying that what the Democrats are doing is perfect, even though there are some simple minded folk that will instantly jump to that conclusion. People like Senator Nelson and others need to be called out for their blatant manipulation of the system if only on an ethical level. But I would rather see something come out of all this where it may not be perfect but it gets the ball rolling since the Congress can always make adjustments later. Sometimes, it's best for a new group of people with a fresh set of ears & eyes to assess the situation after a previous one has done so for so long. Unless you have it set in your mind that the process is only going to get worse and bringing the bill to reconciliation will only favor the insurance companies, then there's no real reason beyond the hype to stop the process. Do we stop basketball games in the third quarter if one team is behind by more than 20 points?

If you need more reasoning behind this belief, all we have to do is look at the issue surrounding Gays in the Military. Gays & lesbians whined and complained when Clinton didn't come through and enabled DADT. But underneath the surface, it was a step in the right direction because now we have a president who may be able to eliminate the ban altogether. But I digress...

I'm ready to move on, as well as many other people in this country. Let's go to the next step and take this issue out of the hands of the inept in the Senate.

VB -

your thoughtful response deserves a reply...did not want you to think i was ignoring your thoughts after the effort you put in to write that...

i promise a response sometime soon, (next couple of days when i can snatch some time for it)

apologies for not spotting it sooner

 

[B_VinylBoy]

The Wyld one is sounding more like a grumpy old man every single day. This is a new look for the anonymous one.

 

[deleted15807]

The Wyld one is sounding more like a grumpy old man every single day. This is a new look for the anonymous one.

The headlines probably have him feeling a bit nauseous:

CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - CNN Poll: More Americans think Democratic policies better than Republican - Blogs from CNN.com

 

[D_Davy_Downspout]

I'm very, very liberal in my politics, but this bill is terrible and will cost the Dems seats in the midterms.

The funny part is that the conservatives are right to oppose this, but they oppose it for the wrong reasons. I'm still seeing idiots saying it's a huge government takeover of the healthcare industry.

I wish it was.

 

[D_Sir Fitzwilly Wankheimer III]

i'm well aware that i pay for your (and all the other uninsurable's)
healthcare through the taxes i pay, and the higher emergency room and doctor's fees i incur, because they have to recover the costs of care given to people unable to pay.

the point I'm trying to get across is that when you (all uninsureds) are moved onto a private insurance company's books, they WILL pass the expense along to the other policy holders, BUT my taxes will NOT GO DOWN because of that.

So, because of this bill, the net cost for me to buy insurance WILL go up, regardless of what efficiencies you may assert will occur from you being covered privately. I would much rather have had everyone who can't buy insurance rolled into medicare or medicaid, through a buy-in or whatever mechanism you want

at least with a gov't run plan there are elected officials who are at some point conceivably accountable to their constituents, with my pvt insurance company they can screw me and there's no recourse, because they all collude to fix the market place. where's the anti-trust league when u need them?

i have no problem with sharing the cost to get everybody insured, but with this bill i will pay 2x.

Not to mention they are forcing you to buy health insurance - i don't think thats constitutional. what are they going to force you buy to next? big government folks thats your boy Barack's plan.

No you can't have that car you have to buy this one.
No you can't have that house you have to buy one like this.
No you can't live there you have to live here.
Where will it end? That doesn't sound like freedom to me.

 

[MalakingTiti]

This is all bullshit. Regardless of what it is, there is going to be somebody doesn't like it. My money was going in directions that I didn't agree with for the previous 8 years and there wasn't anything I could do about it because enough assholes voted George Bush into, and back into office. Now my guy is in, and they don't like what he's doing. Well, tough shit. That's the way the ball bounces.

Personally I would much rather see my tax contribution going to medically helping people than to fighting a bullshit, ill conceived war that has done nothing but make the world more dangerous.

 

[MalakingTiti]

Not to mention they are forcing you to buy health insurance - i don't think thats constitutional. what are they going to force you buy to next? big government folks thats your boy Barack's plan.

No you can't have that car you have to buy this one.
No you can't have that house you have to buy one like this.
No you can't live there you have to live here.
Where will it end? That doesn't sound like freedom to me.

Don't be stupid. We have to carry car insurance don't we? There is a reason for that. Its so the cost is minimized for the rest of us if some irresponsible dolt who felt like gambling with the rest of our lives and livelihood by driving without insurance goes out and half kills someone. Everyone having to carry minimal health insurance is the same principal. We are going to pay one way or the other unless we begin turning people away from hospitals if they can't pay. Is that what you want?

Do the thinking public a favor and use your head for something besides a hat rack. Think before you just throw out the written equivalent of a load shot into the sink. There is more to the issue than people like that fat headed drug addicted load of used car salesman Rush Limbaugh would have us believe.

 

[D_Davy_Downspout]

This is all bullshit. Regardless of what it is, there is going to be somebody doesn't like it. My money was going in directions that I didn't agree with for the previous 8 years and there wasn't anything I could do about it because enough assholes voted George Bush into, and back into office. Now my guy is in, and they don't like what he's doing. Well, tough shit. That's the way the ball bounces.

Personally I would much rather see my tax contribution going to medically helping people than to fighting a bullshit, ill conceived war that has done nothing but make the world more dangerous.

The problem is that it forces people to buy insurance while doing little to control costs. An individual mandate with strict regulation would be good, but that's not what we're getting.

It's a blowjob to the healthcare industry, who wrote most of the bill.

 

[tripod]

and your useless, uninformed and ignorant screed is a prime example of why i use my brain and work in the financial markets, and you use your biceps and throw drunk people out of bars.

Actually, I am descended from simple farmers who did not even have a need for high school to work the land. My people are just simple folk and don't know anything about the financial markets. I'll bet that your daddy knew a good deal about the stock markets...

That's why I had to do what I did to make a buck. I'm so sorry that I couldn't have been born in the right family to meet up to your standards.

It's no secret that you have contempt for the simple and working people in this country... that's why you have so much vile words to spit out from your fingertips.

You're such a hateful little man.

 

[MalakingTiti]

The problem is that it forces people to buy insurance while doing little to control costs. An individual mandate with strict regulation would be good, but that's not what we're getting.

It's a blowjob to the healthcare industry, who wrote most of the bill.

Ok. You raise a good point. I will check it out before commenting further. If its as you say, I concur that it is less than ideal. However, it's still a step in the right direction. The health care system is no good in its present state. I think anyone who is honest would say that we can't keep going the way we've been.

 

[MalakingTiti]

Actually, I am descended from simple farmers who did not even have a need for high school to work the land. My people are just simple folk and don't know anything about the financial markets. I'll bet that your daddy knew a good deal about the stock markets...

That's why I had to do what I did to make a buck. I'm so sorry that I couldn't have been born in the right family to meet up to your standards.

It's no secret that you have contempt for the simple and working people in this country... that's why you have so much vile words to spit out from your fingertips.

You're such a hateful little man.

Easy man! We're all friends here even though our opinions may differ. Flashy is the undisputed heavy weight cum compilation champion of the world. That counts for something doesn't it???

 

[D_Davy_Downspout]

Ok. You raise a good point. I will check it out before commenting further. If its as you say, I concur that it is less than ideal. However, it's still a step in the right direction. The health care system is no good in its present state. I think anyone who is honest would say that we can't keep going the way we've been.

This legislation does little to fix our health system, and this is likely the most Democrats we will ever have in the Senate. It is very hard to believe that it will get any better than this.

Basically, this legislation doubles-down on the shittiest parts of our broken system. Thanks US healthcare industry.