A Common Conservative Tactic

wallyj84

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I was listening to a discussion between two conservatives, one black and the other white, and I heard a kind of argument that I hear from conservatives a lot. He was attacking BLM by saying that if BLM was really concerned with black lives, they would do something about the poor schools in black neighborhoods or children growing up in single parent households. Basically trying to discredit a group by asking why are they focussed on A instead of B.

This is a very common conservative argument. You see anti-feminists using it all the time. They love to ask feminists if they're so concerned with gender equality why don't they do something about some problem men have. I think anyone who follows politics has seen some form of this argument from conservatives.

I personally don't like this debating tactic, but I'm curious as to what you guys think of it. Do you think this kind of critique is fair? Does it highlight real problems in organizations? Is it just a way to deflect legitimate criticism? How do you deal with this kind of argument when someone brings it up?
 

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There's always room for improvement but it seems like this tactic is used to divert attention away from the serious issues at hand. Black crime needs to go down but it shouldn't be used as a counterpoint to subtly or frankly justify the continued brutality black people experience from the police.
 

keenobserver

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There's always room for improvement but it seems like this tactic is used to divert attention away from the serious issues at hand. Black crime needs to go down but it shouldn't be used as a counterpoint to subtly or frankly justify the continued brutality black people experience from the police.

Exactly. No one denies the need to reduce crime - black on black crime is no different, but it is a separate issue talking about policing problems. One could argue it the policing was seen as equitable and fair the police could likely make more progress of crime.
 

b.c.

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Exactly. No one denies the need to reduce crime - black on black crime is no different, but it is a separate issue talking about policing problems. One could argue it the policing was seen as equitable and fair the police could likely make more progress of crime.

Right Keen. The "what about black on black crime" is a response that arises like clockwork, EVERY time there is a questionable killing of a black person by law enforcement or those purporting to REPRESENT it. And the thing that adds insult to injury is that the whataboutism ALWAYS tends to neglect or IGNORE the extenuating circumstances that exacerbates the incidence of crime in minority, mostly inner city, communities.

Specifically a centuries old, systemic racial discrimination and disparity, from segregation to even now - and that results in lower wages and fewer economic opportunities for black families, long standing limited upward mobility, schools deprived of equitable resources, poorer healthcare, discrimination in housing and LENDING, environmental factors affecting mostly poorer communities,

and a HOST of other social structures that contribute to the undermining of black families, PARTICULARLY discriminatory practices in policing: in arrests, traffic stops, ticketing quotas for traffic violations that SPECIFICALLY target black communities, stop and frisk, racial profiling, broken windows policing, higher conviction rates for lesser offenses, and longer sentencing than for non-black counterparts.

A film I linked in another thread dealt with just one aspect of that. How the drug cartels (and prior to that, the Mafia) specifically targeted black communities to peddle their devilish wares, and how users of cheaper crack cocaine in inner city communities received greater attention (i.e. PROSECUTIONS) from the so-called "war" on drugs (no, it was a war on black people), and MUCH stiffer sentencing for possession of crack cocaine, while the richer (and more likely no-black) powder cocaine set were (relatively speaking) IGNORED.

ALL of the above and more, in effect, working upon the structure and ECONOMY of the black community and families, like a thousand TULSA'S, only drawn out over a longer period of time and with far greater CASUALTIES.

Add to that "law enforcement" whose approach to the black community (in general) is from the PRESUMPTION OF GUILT instead of innocence, which is precisely why cops think nothing of shooting up the wrong residence and killing a black woman asleep in her bed, or driving up on a youth in a park with a toy gun and shooting him dead. Or DOZENS of similar atrocities...

inflicted upon the very people who most need the "protection and service" cops are supposed to be SWORN to, instead all treated like PERPS.

Is it any wonder why there is so little trust in them??

.
 

wallyj84

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Exactly. No one denies the need to reduce crime - black on black crime is no different, but it is a separate issue talking about policing problems. One could argue it the policing was seen as equitable and fair the police could likely make more progress of crime.
Right Keen. The "what about black on black crime" is a response that arises like clockwork, EVERY time there is a questionable killing of a black person by law enforcement or those purporting to REPRESENT it. And the thing that adds insult to injury is that the whataboutism ALWAYS tends to neglect or IGNORE the extenuating circumstances that exacerbates the incidence of crime in minority, mostly inner city, communities.

Specifically a centuries old, systemic racial discrimination and disparity, from segregation to even now - and that results in lower wages and fewer economic opportunities for black families, long standing limited upward mobility, schools deprived of equitable resources, poorer healthcare, discrimination in housing and LENDING, environmental factors affecting mostly poorer communities,

and a HOST of other social structures that contribute to the undermining of black families, PARTICULARLY discriminatory practices in policing: in arrests, traffic stops, ticketing quotas for traffic violations that SPECIFICALLY target black communities, stop and frisk, racial profiling, broken windows policing, higher conviction rates for lesser offenses, and longer sentencing than for non-black counterparts.

A film I linked in another thread dealt with just one aspect of that. How the drug cartels (and prior to that, the Mafia) specifically targeted black communities to peddle their devilish wares, and how users of cheaper crack cocaine in inner city communities received greater attention (i.e. PROSECUTIONS) from the so-called "war" on drugs (no, it was a war on black people), and MUCH stiffer sentencing for possession of crack cocaine, while the richer (and more likely no-black) powder cocaine set were (relatively speaking) IGNORED.

ALL of the above and more, in effect, working upon the structure and ECONOMY of the black community and families, like a thousand TULSA'S, only drawn out over a longer period of time and with far greater CASUALTIES.

Add to that "law enforcement" whose approach to the black community (in general) is from the PRESUMPTION OF GUILT instead of innocence, which is precisely why cops think nothing of shooting up the wrong residence and killing a black woman asleep in her bed, or driving up on a youth in a park with a toy gun and shooting him dead. Or DOZENS of similar atrocities...

inflicted upon the very people who most need the "protection and service" cops are supposed to be SWORN to, instead all treated like PERPS.

Is it any wonder why there is so little trust in them??

.

I listen to a lot of black conservatives and they love to talk up the moral ills of the black community. But there is no talk of how we got here and even less talk of how we're supposed to get out of it.
 

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I listen to a lot of black conservatives and they love to talk up the moral ills of the black community. But there is no talk of how we got here and even less talk of how we're supposed to get out of it.

This is the issue. There are reasons why many urban minorities are is ghetto like neighborhoods. The disintegration of Baltimore is a classic example. No one wants to undertake solutions, mainly because the solutions are going to need to be long term and require careful devotion to maintain. Politicians - often on both side of the aisle like to 'fix it once, claim victory and move on.' Too often constituents ease up on politicians when a first step is taken but forget about the long term.
 

b.c.

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I listen to a lot of black conservatives and they love to talk up the moral ills of the black community. But there is no talk of how we got here and even less talk of how we're supposed to get out of it.

And that's what makes them black conservatives. Either a disconnect from the forces at play that have decimated the black community, and/or the belief that the Democratic party hasn't done enough to address it, NOT that the GOP has or will EVER do a damned sight better. And their rhetoric, ideology, practices and policy making are living proof of THAT.

This is the issue. There are reasons why many urban minorities are is ghetto like neighborhoods. The disintegration of Baltimore is a classic example. No one wants to undertake solutions, mainly because the solutions are going to need to be long term and require careful devotion to maintain. Politicians - often on both side of the aisle like to 'fix it once, claim victory and move on.' Too often constituents ease up on politicians when a first step is taken but forget about the long term.

The ideological difference between the two parties toward addressing the problems is that Democrats are more inclined to throw money at it, whereas the GOP has a trickle down mentality whereby poorer people, in THEORY (and one that hasn't proved TRUE), benefit by happenstance (as it were) from the increased prosperity of the WEALTHY.

Of the two, I'm inclined to lean toward the former than the latter, however flawed either may be. Especially since the GOP and their conservative constituency have long been engaged in efforts to either oppose or roll back gains in Civil Rights legislation: including anti-discrimination laws in housing, anti-discrimination laws in employment and pay, fair lending practices, and a higher, LIVEABLE, national minimum wage.

If people on the low end of the wage earner scale had a minimum hourly wage that allowed them greater economic success/opportunities, that would be at least a START. And, as the current "defund the police" MISNOMER advocates, shifting of funding FROM arming cops with military grade hardware, and TO community development and outreach, investments in COMMUNITIES, could also exact change for better economic outcomes, less stress on families, less crime, and the like.

What most who throw up whataboutisms re. black on black crime fail to acknowledge (IF they even KNOW in the first place) is that there are many grassroots (mostly local) organizations and community sourced efforts, including outreach and mentoring programs that work to address black on black crime on a DAILY basis, in many cities.

But conservatives aren't interested in supporting something like that. In fact, on past occasions, they've worked to destroy such initiatives. Ever hear of ACORN?

What the right knows of Acorn is that they worked to register black voters. And heaven KNOWS that, like mail-in ballots for Democrats, and extended voting hours, and polling places located in black precincts, and election by POPULAR VOTE, is a fkng NO NO.

That's why the GOP and criminal scum like James O'Keefe had to destroy Acorn. But Acorn did far more than just register voters.

Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now - Wikipedia
History of ACORN in the United States - Wikipedia


O'Keefe and the GOP brought about the demise of Acorn, based upon a fraudulent video and a lot of right winged TRIPE. State and federal offices found no evidence of criminal conduct or mishandling of government funds, yet the group was defunded ANYWAY.

Yet another example of how much the GOP gives a flying fuck about black people.

.
 
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Thikn2velvet1

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Separating the two issues out screams one life is more precious than another and is virulently racist.

20-month-old boy, 10-year-old girl among 14 people fatally shot over weekend in Chicago: Police

Why aren’t there marches for those two lives? What devalues their lives over George Floyd’s? Where are the celebs raging about their murders?
Where are the million dollar gofundme pages?

If you don’t rage about both equally, you are scamming a horrid “ shell game.” Don’t look here, look there!” “The bad guys are there!” “ Nothing to see here, move along.”

There is blood on a lot of hands, and not just murderous cops.
 
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keenobserver

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Separating the two issues out screams one life is more precious than another and is virulently racist.

20-month-old boy, 10-year-old girl among 14 people fatally shot over weekend in Chicago: Police

Why aren’t there marches for those two lives? What devalues their lives over George Floyd’s? Where are the celebs raging about their murders?
Where are the million dollar gofundme pages?

If you don’t rage about both equally, you are scamming a horrid “ shell game.” Don’t look here, look there!” “The bad guys are there!” “ Nothing to see here, move along.”

There is blood on a lot of hands, and not just murderous cops.

Speaking of common conservative tactics . . . right on time!
 

Klingsor

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Separating the two issues out screams one life is more precious than another and is virulently racist.

20-month-old boy, 10-year-old girl among 14 people fatally shot over weekend in Chicago: Police

Why aren’t there marches for those two lives? What devalues their lives over George Floyd’s? Where are the celebs raging about their murders?
Where are the million dollar gofundme pages?

If you don’t rage about both equally, you are scamming a horrid “ shell game.” Don’t look here, look there!” “The bad guys are there!” “ Nothing to see here, move along.”

There is blood on a lot of hands, and not just murderous cops.

Start a petition to defund those who committed these crimes, and I will be the first to sign it.
 

Gj816

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Well obviously the Democrats really care what happens to minorities, every four years of course. How many years have they had control over both houses in the last 60 years?

But please don't pull your heads out of the sand just because it's an election year. No life is of more value than the next one. If you really genuinely seek change run for office. Go to Washington and try to make life better for all of us. But this arm chair quarterbacking is useless and unproductive.

We all matter. The new word for the year is systematic. When will you people realize that liberals are as much of the problem as you say conservatives are.

People get offended at every little thing. They want to defund police but aren't willing to give off their time and money to make real change in inner cities. How often have I heard someone on the left say that's what my tax dollars are for. Really.

Why is there crime in inner cities but not in affluent black neighborhoods? Is it simply a case of too many people being housed together or is there something more? What exactly do we want our federal government to do about it.

There comes a time regardless of whether a person is killed by a police officer or some low life who has no regard for life that every life should matter equally. Your opinion that it is conservatives who are trying to deflect instead of rising to the occasion to say you know that's a good point.

Some innocent people die because that is not as news worthy as when a police officer kills someone. You all should be outraged at the crime in inner cities instead of trying to excuse it as it's not the same thing. When in reality if black lives truly mattered to you you'd be asking the same questions. Do all black lives matter or is it only when a police officer kills one that it matters?
 

Thikn2velvet1

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Start a petition to defund those who committed these crimes, and I will be the first to sign it.

An impotent reply. Condemn both, protest both, demand changes for both, and that would be courageous. Instead you pick the easy protest, the glamourous protest and wash the blood off your hands without a care.
 

Thikn2velvet1

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Start a petition to defund those who committed these crimes, and I will be the first to sign it.

In fact why don’t you go into Humboldt Park or Englewood neighborhoods of Chicago and hold up
a sign with pics of George Floyd, Rashard Brooks, Breonna Taylor AND the 3 year old and the 20 month old and the 10 year old murdered that says ALL BLACK LIVES MATTER. You won’t because that would show honor and commitment to truth.
 
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wallyj84

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That is the only murder liberals care about. 20 month old black child with their entire life in front of them takes a 9 mm in the chest, not one liberal on this board condemns it. In fact I think they like it, or why not decry it?

But you can understand the difference between the two situations, right? No one supports either death, but one of the killers was a private citizen and the other was a public servant. You can condemn a private citizen, and I'm sure many people did condemn the actions of that murderer, but you have no control over their actions. As a citizen and a voter, you have a right to decide how public servants behave while they're on their job.
 

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But you can understand the difference between the two situations, right? No one supports either death, but one of the killers was a private citizen and the other was a public servant. You can condemn a private citizen, and I'm sure many people did condemn the actions of that murderer, but you have no control over their actions. As a citizen and a voter, you have a right to decide how public servants behave while they're on their job.


It doesn't change the fact that their lives matter just as much as someone who has intentionally put themselves into a situation where they are resisting arrest. Fighting with police officers or otherwise would not be engaging with the police in that manner.

The truth of the matter is that some of those people who have been killed by the police could have had a very different outcome had they not resisted arrest.
 

keenobserver

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It doesn't change the fact that their lives matter just as much as someone who has intentionally put themselves into a situation where they are resisting arrest. Fighting with police officers or otherwise would not be engaging with the police in that manner.

The truth of the matter is that some of those people who have been killed by the police could have had a very different outcome had they not resisted arrest.

You really work so hard to always, I mean always, miss the point.
 

wallyj84

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It doesn't change the fact that their lives matter just as much as someone who has intentionally put themselves into a situation where they are resisting arrest. Fighting with police officers or otherwise would not be engaging with the police in that manner.

The truth of the matter is that some of those people who have been killed by the police could have had a very different outcome had they not resisted arrest.

I think your second paragraph shows your actual intent with this argument.

No one is saying that one life mattered more than another. The black lives matter movement is about getting the police to recognize the value of black lives. That's its purpose. The little girl that you keep on bringing up, had nothing to do with the problem of the police not valuing black lives.
 

Thikn2velvet1

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But you can understand the difference between the two situations, right? No one supports either death, but one of the killers was a private citizen and the other was a public servant. You can condemn a private citizen, and I'm sure many people did condemn the actions of that murderer, but you have no control over their actions. As a citizen and a voter, you have a right to decide how public servants behave while they're on their job.

Then why did you post so much in the Ahmaud Arbery thread? Isn’t that the same thing? 2 private citizens gunned down a guy because he was in the wrong neighborhood? That is exactly what happens on the south side of Chicago. Wrong place, wrong time.

If you start a thread to discuss the murder of the 20 month old, then you would at least trying to be balanced. Till then your posts are rife with hypocrisy.
 
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keenobserver

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Then why did you post so much in the Ahmaud Arbery thread? Isn’t that the same thing? 2 private citizens gunned down a guy because he was in the wrong neighborhood? That is exactly what happens on the south side of Chicago. Wrong place, wrong time.

If you start a thread to discuss the murder of the 20 month old, then you would at least trying to be balanced. Till then your posts are rife with hypocrisy.

It was not wrong place wrong time - it was a retired policeman and his son taking on police powers and abusing them. With no evidence they assumed Mr. Arbery was a crimminal, chased him down and killed him, while another person with them taped most of it. They had no evidence, no cause to try yo hold him and he did not put them at risk for their lives, but because they were white with law enforcement ties nothing was done until public out cry forced a re-examination of the reality of the situation. This seems different from a 20 month old infant getting killed.
 
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