A fair challenge for the liberal Bush-haters

B_Nick8

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Meanwhile while you are busy on google; Are you happy with the state of this country?



History will conclude that the defining element of the George W. Bush administration was not Iraq or tax cuts, but lies and contempt for the democratic process. As the Bush administration mercifully comes to an end, we are only now discovering that the President ordered the CIA to fabricate evidence to support a war against Iraq and suppress evidence that Iraq did not possess weapons of mass destruction. Which is why I believe Senator Sheldon Whitehouse (of the great state of Rhode Island) hit the nail on the head when he said:

the irresponsibility and mismanagement of this Administration will go down in our history as among the darkest moments our government has witnessed. It rots the very fiber of democracy when our government is put to these uses. We do not yet know all the damage that has been done.

It is precisely because of the fact that we do not know the damage that has been done that Nicholas Kristof is right in calling for a Truth Commission

For five years, I have attempted to catalog the countless lies and deceits of this administration (albeit sporadically and only on a high level after the 2004 election) and have been appalled to find what I thought would be a limited endeavor is something that far exceeds the ability of one person or organization to document.

The Declaration of Independence provides that “Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed” History will long remember that for the past eight years, the Bush administration usurped that power by routinely thwarting the people’s ability to exercise informed consent as detailed on this site’s many pages.

I had considered taking him up on this challenge, but:


  1. Posts are limited to 10,000 characters in length, and I could easily exceed that. I'd like to know that the time I spent on citations and links would be a worthwhile expenditure of my time -- yet, I've not been convinced that this challenge is sincere:
  2. Despite starinvestor's claim that this is a "fair" challenge, he's already failed to live up to it:
    • His response to Domisoldo's legitimate concern about alienating our allies was "Keep the faith dude". It wasn't"something that is more positive or more advantageous"
    • His response to Garth33's concern that "almost [a] trillion dollars" was spent in Iraq was to quibble that $600,000,000,000 isn't the same thing as "almost a trillion dollars". It wasn't "something that is more positive or more advantageous".
    • His response to Garth's concern over the death toll in Iraq was to hypothesize that more lives might have been saved than lost -- a guess that he himself admits can't be quantified. It wasn't "something that is more positive or more advantageous".
  3. He's responded with personal attacks, calling centrists "outcasts and gypsies", and attacking hot-rod's "mental capacity". What we haven't seen yet is the alleged point-by-point comparison of Bush's positive contributions with his negative contributions that starinvestor promised in the opening of the thread.

Do you seriously believe the physical removal of GWB from the White House will instantly erase the damage he has caused, directly and indirectly?

Many of his judicial picks, for instance, will not be up for disposal for years to come, not to mention the jurisprudence they are leaving behind.

The level of the nation's indebtedness will hurt us, our kids and grandkids.

etc., etc.



You got me on this one.

I don't know why you people pick up on starinvestor's crap and run with it. Why the hell would you want to get in an argument about the Bush administration now? Everyone agrees the dude's mentally checked out, and he can't do anything to turn around his breathtakingly incompetent term in office. Period. End of sentence. Now let's talk about dicks again.

So here's the deal. I'm going to go way, way, way out on a limb here and tell you guys that I actually like star. I mean, he's a fucked up rabid-ass Republican with apparently no political sense and no emotional conscience (to our way of thinking) whatsoever, but he's also smart and funny and not afraid to take us on, and he's real.

I like that in a guy.

So shoot me.

But please don't take me off your friend's list. Even I extend the olive branch once in a while.

As to the posts above, I thought they merited rereading.
 

nudeyorker

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I actually like him too, because despite our differences, I learned last night that we have something very important in common. And our individual differences do not replace the all important common bonds.
 

Rikter8

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"Ask any question you want. I can answer it perfectly. But you'll have to speak REALLY LOUD since Im Deaf"

"What?! Cant hear you. Ask another question"

This is one of those useless threads that goes Round and Round.
 

D_Marazion Analdouche

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Point taken. I don't recall saying that 9/11 could have been easily prevented. But it does seem as if certain people were asleep at the wheel. A lot of things had to go unnoticed for multiple planes to be hijacked at the same time.

I won't argue that.

No, I didn't forget. But touché for calling me on it.

Just wanted to make sure you weren't one of those no-planers :tongue:

I think we're not looking at the same thing here. My argument is that it would take a lot less manpower and government funds to increase security detail at our international airports & city centers based on the threats our nation was receiving. And our enemy would have been reduced to just a few instead of a few thousand.

I won't argue that either.

But it's not as if the military would have been alone in this. There's already Airport Security in place that could have worked alongside them. They would have been essentially the first line of defense. The ones manning the metal detectors and actually paying attention to what was in people's bags. Also, it had been argued constantly that the technology used at our Security gates needed upgrading.

Won't argue that either. But if you see how fast anything in government takes, getting updated equipment and/or better trained security personnel would take looooong time. A lot longer than 8 months, which is why this falls into the lap of more people than the Bush admin.

If you look at it from a different angle, it would look as if our nation was providing more jobs to the American people. I'm sure there would be more people willing to join the military if they didn't have to be deported to a different country to fight. They'd be more willing to fight on our own soil where we would have the bigger advantage.

If the National Guard wasn't used in deployments I think this would be the perfect job for them. You can be "full time" National Guard and not just go weekends like the Reserves does. The only slight problem with this is that a decent portion of this country gets a little uptight seeing "Military" walking amongst us daily. But I agree with that too, that would be a decent option, one I've thought of as well.

I know of the first WTC bombing. It was pulled off by explosives in a truck only a month after Clinton was inaugurated. Even so, if you've notice most of the attacks on US troops were done in other areas of the world. Sometimes I think our government focuses too much on other people's business and not their own. But that in itself is a whole different argument.

But that's how it works. These smaller acts of terrorism works much like a TV commercial does here. It's advertisement to attract more members as well as money donations from sympathizers. The more you pull off, the more viable people see you and flock to your cause allowing you to pull off larger scaled ops.

I was born & raised in Boston.

Wicked Pissah!

I was actually planning to go to a Kinko's near the WTC on 9/11 to print up resumes and go on a few job interviews... but woke up late. I can't help but think that I could have been in a train underneath the WTC when everything happened. And as I rushed to get dressed and deal with the day, I received a call from one of my best friends who told me a plane crashed into one of the towers. :(

I have a few friends that worked for Morgan Stanley, they were there that day but had an offsite breakfast meeting. If they didn't, they would have been I believe 5 or 6 floors below the impact area in WTC2. It was a very lucky day for some, for others.......

I agree that it's really difficult to deal with every terrorist threat, especially when most of them are just empty-handed comments. But even having Air Marshalls as you suggested would have put on an extra level of prevention that wasn't there on 9/11. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

I'm in full agreement that we could have done more. Not sure if it could have been stopped, but we could have done something to at least keep it from looking like we had our pants down around our ankles.
 

D_Marazion Analdouche

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He still has done nada to help bring any PEACE to the world. Instead, he's created nothing but chaos and misery to every corner of the globe, Yes??????

Maybe not "peace" but do you believe it's coincidence that after a string of attacks targeting the US that after something on the scale of 9/11 we haven't been hit since?

We have been hit in scale both large and small at a rate of almost every two years since the 80s'. Something has changed in the past going on 8 years.
 
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houtx48

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Hahaha! And his daddy is sooooo happy to see him coming home.............his daddy is happy that he'll stop embarrassing the family every time he speaks
 

mindseye

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I'm appalled at starinvestor's math skills. In this post, he claims that a 400-billion-dollar difference in estimates of the cost of the Iraq war is "rather substantial". In this post, he claims that a 5-trillion-dollar difference in the national debt is "splitting hairs".

Or, perhaps, it's not his math that's appalling.
 

B_starinvestor

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I'm appalled at starinvestor's math skills. In this post, he claims that a 400-billion-dollar difference in estimates of the cost of the Iraq war is "rather substantial". In this post, he claims that a 5-trillion-dollar difference in the national debt is "splitting hairs".

Or, perhaps, it's not his math that's appalling.

I hope Blindeye never gets into investigative journalism. Mixing fiction and fantasy with fact is a dubious combination.
 

ZOS23xy

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Or....

11th-Hour Rush to Enact a Rule That Obama Fought

WASHINGTON — The Labor Department is racing to complete a new rule, strenuously opposed by President-elect Barack Obama, that would make it much harder for the government to regulate toxic substances and hazardous chemicals to which workers are exposed on the job.



Of course those in the executive suite pushing the new rules won't have to worry about being exposed to such chemicals. Too bad for the little people. :confused:


And this would involve rolling back lead and mercury vapors that escape into the air during manufacture.

Forgot the rolling back of the Endangered Species act....

Drilling in public Lands....
 
D

deleted15807

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And this would involve rolling back lead and mercury vapors that escape into the air during manufacture.

Forgot the rolling back of the Endangered Species act....

Drilling in public Lands....


And we still wait to hear how this is spun as goodness from starinvestor. Poisons and less protection for workers and the environment and consumers are good. Wait wait I know. All those rules were excessive anyway put in place by liberals who hate America, captialism and are anti-jobs.
 
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B_starinvestor

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I would not mind discussing this issue!
Bush Family Funded
Adolf Hitler
Iraq War.ru
8-26-3


And so, in 1931 Thyssen joined the Nazi party, becoming one of the most powerful members of the Nazi war machine.


The Bush family's habit of dominating territories and wealth is nothing new. Their fascist genes were generated during the 1930s. Therefore defining the occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq and the threats to other countries as a continuance of blitzkreig offensives as fascist is no blunder. Neither is convening an anti-fascist front is a rhetorical exercise

This is a little speculative and conspiracy-ish, NY. To this I say that occupying Iraq is establishing democracy in a volatile and important region - and that establishing a healthy democratic gov't in Iraq is vital to national security interests.
 

B_starinvestor

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Or....

11th-Hour Rush to Enact a Rule That Obama Fought

WASHINGTON — The Labor Department is racing to complete a new rule, strenuously opposed by President-elect Barack Obama, that would make it much harder for the government to regulate toxic substances and hazardous chemicals to which workers are exposed on the job.



Of course those in the executive suite pushing the new rules won't have to worry about being exposed to such chemicals. Too bad for the little people. :confused:

Legislation that hasn't even passed is not a mistake of the Bush Administration.
 

ZOS23xy

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This is a little speculative and conspiracy-ish, NY. To this I say that occupying Iraq is establishing democracy in a volatile and important region - and that establishing a healthy democratic gov't in Iraq is vital to national security interests.

You're not answering the topic and have shifted the issue over to "speculation". It's pretty well documented.