A mosque at Ground Zero!

[B_VinylBoy]

But they do not number in the tens of millions - perhaps over 100 million.

First off, your numbers are completely propagated. Use actual statistics and not falsified information. Secondly, regardless of the number of lunatics within any particular religion, to use such a measurement to downplay the severity of religious terrorism is not only dishonest... it's morally disgusting. As if a suicide bombing in the name of Allah is anymore deplorable than some psychopath who decides to go into a church with a loaded gun and openly assassinate someone in the name of Jesus. They're both sick acts of terrorism based off of ignorance. And I can say this to you, AS A CHRISTIAN. Non-practicing, of course.

They do not totally run countries in a totally intolerant fashion as do the Muslims.

I repeat, Uganda. They (being Christian extremists) were proposing legislation that not only made it a crime to be homosexual which was punishable by prison or death, but also would have made it a crime for someone to know a homosexual and not report it.

Taking the acts of a few "Christian" individuals which are usually condemned by the majority of Christians and trying to equate it to what is practiced by millions of Muslims and celebrated by a large percentage of them does not invalidate my points or provide support for yours.

And that's where you're wrong.
The majority of people who follow any religion do not tolerate or approve of extreme measures expressed in holy doctrine just out of basic human decency. A person who actually travels to other countries, not just through the eyes of cable news or National Geographic, will know this firsthand. Your link of anti-Islamic propaganda, even if it's from a news network I do occasionally watch, is irrelevant. Because in the end, this isn't about whether or not Muslims are more violent than others. This is all about the continued bouts of religious intolerance and bigotry that is blindly accepted by people who claim to be tolerant and accepting of difference. They will ALWAYS find an excuse to defend their jingoistic opinions... even if it means trying to count every single lunatic one by one in hopes that the other side has a few extra.

"Your group has 5 terrorist attacks. Mine only has 3. That makes my group more righteous than yours." F***in' pathetic.

 

[Pitbull]

I repeat, Uganda. They (being Christian extremists) were proposing legislation that not only made it a crime to be homosexual which was punishable by prison or death, but also would have made it a crime for someone to know a homosexual and not report it.

What happens to homosexuals in Muslim countries?
The legislation is not proposed.
It exists and is in force.
And not very tolerant.
I will add that many of the laws are not very tolerant of heterosexuals either.

Your tolerance of a religion that would quickly execute you for what you are in many parts of the world is either most admirable or extremely stupid.

 

[Pitbull]

Because in the end, this isn't about whether or not Muslims are more violent than others.

Yes it is about how violent and intolerant Muslims are.
The problems you cite with other religions are exceptions not the rule.
With Islam - it may not always be the rule but way to frequent to be an exception.

You may call this anti Islam propaganda but it is true:

Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time

 

[B_VinylBoy]

Your tolerance of a religion that would quickly execute you for what you are in many parts of the world is either most admirable or extremely stupid.

First off... fuck you for trying to twist my statement into an acceptance of extreme activity & inhumane treatment in the name of religion. Other religious bigots have been doing this for days now and you all are still wrong. I clearly stated that I don't practice or follow any religion several times in this thread. Perhaps you should review some of the previous posts before you go around making such outlandish accusations?

Secondly, just because I stated what was being proposed by Christian extremists in Uganda doesn't mean that I tolerate it. In fact, I've been more than vocal expressing my opposition to what was going on down there. Need proof? Here are two posts from two different threads:

http://www.lpsg.org/169213-uganda-may-soon-have-a.html#post2582836
http://www.lpsg.org/184688-and-now-uganda-wants-to.html#post2774028

As a side note, since you want to try and bellow your phony moralistic sentiments at me, your silence on the issue of Uganda was deafening. Not a single utterance of a word on either of those two threads. Lucky for you, I won't jump to conclusions and associate your lack of response to be a form of "tolerance" on your end. That's what an idiot would do.

Yes it is about how violent and intolerant Muslims are.
The problems you cite with other religions are exceptions not the rule.
With Islam - it may not always be the rule but way to frequent to be an exception.

You WANT this thread to degrade to an anti-Islamic, "all Muslims are evil" propaganda-fest, however, you're probably pissed off that people like me are calling you out for your ignorance, bigotry and religious discrimination. You're trying so hard to take the moral high ground, ignoring the fact that the more you try the more HYPOCRITICAL you look. So go on... act like I'm the problem. Do what three other failures done already and try to label me as some kind of "terrorist lover" because I don't cry the same Chicken Little nonsense about a religion as you. Go ahead and make yourself look even more foolish. Knock yourself out.

What part of FREEDOM OF RELIGION and the First Amendment do you not want to adhere to? Funny how in birther threads you were one of the first to hide behind the Constitution to defend your belief that we have a Kenyan president. Now, you're willing to throw it all away and ignore the very First Amendment just to hold on to your belief that Islam is evil. Talk about blatant hypocrisy... really, just SHUT UP.

 

[B_dxjnorto]

Have to agree with Pitbull. There was way too little condemnation by Muslim authorities about 911. The reason they are complacent is probably because they are used to this in their home nations. I mean Americans are idiots too -- Abu Ghraib. Just don't usually see Westerners dragging burned corpses of servicemen through the streets laughing. I suppose we are now headed there though since we've joined in the jihad.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

Well, you can't convince every religious intolerant person of their own discrimination all of the time I suppose. I sincerely hope the rest are taking down names in the event they try to take the "moral high ground" on any other social issue.

 

[Billy Batts]

I just don't get the uber-liberal people that condemn the Danish cartoonist for committing a legal act because he was being provocative, then excuse the intense muslim reaction because the Danish guy had it coming. Then when it comes to this provocative move by muslims to build a mosque near ground zero, which many americans have a serious issue with, people refuse to acknowledge the provocative nature of it and tell others that it's legal and be tolerant. If you know it will push buttons, no matter wether the intention is good or bad, don't push buttons and be considerate.

 

[vince]

My understanding was that that conflict was far more communal than religious.
The Sinhalese and the Tamils had relatively few religious differences. They were even known to worship in each other's temples, even as the civil war progressed.

This is surprising to me since my Tamil friend in Canada told me that Tamils were mostly Hindu with sizable Christian and Muslim minorities. Also interesting that the Theravadain Sinhalese, would worship in idol filled Hindu temples.

Sri Lanka is a place I've always been interested in and now that the civil war is over, something could happen that way. But there are a few others places that are higher on the to-do list.

No one's hands are completely clean.
But Buddhism, over the long arc of its history, has been far, far less inclined to see war as a solution to human problems than have other religions, particularly the monotheistic ones.

I agree with this completely.

 

[D_Fiona_Farvel]

Yes it is about how violent and intolerant Muslims are.
The problems you cite with other religions are exceptions not the rule.
With Islam - it may not always be the rule but way to frequent to be an exception.

You may call this anti Islam propaganda but it is true:

Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time

You've really scraped the bottom of the barrel to find that site, PB. It is anti-Muslim and Islam propaganda. It is full of the sort of half-truths and exaggerations one would only cull together or visit to support an already prejudiced and ignorance-based view of Islam and "Muslims", as if they were a monolithic people.

Have to agree with Pitbull. There was way too little condemnation by Muslim authorities about 911. The reason they are complacent is probably because they are used to this in their home nations. I mean Americans are idiots too -- Abu Ghraib. Just don't usually see Westerners dragging burned corpses of servicemen through the streets laughing. I suppose we are now headed there though since we've joined in the jihad.

What "Muslim authorities"? There is no one central authority to Islam, which is as disparate as Christianity.

To your agreement, however, there has been a great deal of condemnation, including Fatwas issued by various religious leaders and MPAC, amongst other organizations (and individuals) worldwide.

 

[Pitbull]

You've really scraped the bottom of the barrel to find that site, PB. It is anti-Muslim and Islam propaganda. It is full of the sort of half-truths and exaggerations one would only cull together or visit to support an already prejudiced and ignorance-based view of Islam and "Muslims", as if they were a monolithic people.

What is exaggerated?
What is half true?

Muslims are not a monolithic people however there is a very sizable minority who are totally intolerant, extremely violent and just pure evil and claim to be acting under the authority of God.

Those minorities are often in positions of power or in total power in many governments around the world.
Best example I can think of is when the Taliban ran Afghanistan.
However even in countries like Saudi Arabia, run by our "friends" who give us oil and we ship them arms, the tolerance for other religions does not exist.

The majority of good Muslims are mostly silent and in many cases tolerant of the acts committed by others of their faith that are totally reprehensible.
Silence is understandable when criticism invites extreme violence.

I can criticize the Pope.
No one will drag me from my house and behead me for doing so.

 

[D_Fiona_Farvel]

What is exaggerated?
What is half true?

Let's begin with the first headline "Ramadan Bombathon 2010 This year the Religion of Peace is bringing it, baby!", the violence reported, sans sources, has zero to do with Ramadan.

Muslims are not a monolithic people however there is a very sizable minority who are totally intolerant, extremely violent and just pure evil and claim to be acting under the authority of God.

You were speaking of Muslims in general - if you are describing a minority, make the distinction. Further, realize that religion is often the veneer of kinship that disguises other, deeper issues a people, or country, may be experiencing.

Yes, while I agree it is amazing what people will do when they believe "to be acting under the authority of God", deeming something "evil" is a cop out. Acts of violence are not "evil", as much as a combination of poverty, lack of education, manipulation, and, what some describe as a "culture of death" in some areas that drives extremism.

Those minorities are often in positions of power or in total power in many governments around the world.

Name them?

Best example I can think of is when the Taliban ran Afghanistan.
However even in countries like Saudi Arabia, run by our "friends" who give us oil and we ship them arms, the tolerance for other religions does not exist.

Religious tolerance isn't part of the Saudi national credo, I don't understand the point.

The majority of good Muslims are mostly silent and in many cases tolerant of the acts committed by others of their faith that are totally reprehensible.
Silence is understandable when criticism invites extreme violence.

I do not know what a "good Muslim" is, however, you are incorrect. There are Muslims and Muslim groups around the world who denounce terrorism, if you are interested in learning more let me know.

I can criticize the Pope.
No one will drag me from my house and behead me for doing so.

?

 

[D_Andreas Sukov]

I hope all those that hate Islam have thier gun and tin hat and are ready to go beat it, or will you just send the young and unfortunate like usual?

 

[B_VinylBoy]

I visited the Middle East during Ramadan a few years ago. Did a week in Jordan (Lost City of Petra), then a second week in Israel (The Dead Sea, Jerusalem & Tel Aviv) and it was a life changing experience I wouldn't trade for the world. Never once did I feel my life was in danger, nor was I worried about some Islamic radical running out of the bushes and beheading me for being an American in Jordan. Which says a lot compared to the chickenhearted zealots who assume the worse in anyone or anything that isn't like themselves.

 

[Industrialsize]

For those in this thread who claim that "reasonable muslims" have not condemned the attacks of 9/11:
A Message from the Council on American-Islamic Relations
American Muslim Leaders Condemn Attacks
American Muslims Denouncing Terrorism
American Muslims and Scholars Denounce Terrorism on Anniversary of 9/11
Australian Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attack
Bin Laden Distorts Islam, Islamic Scholars Say
Bin Laden's Idea of 'Jihad' is Out of Bounds, Islamic Scholars Say
British Muslim leaders condemn terrorism
British Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks
Canadian Muslims Condemn Terorist Attacks
Islamic Statements Against Terrorism in the Wake of the September 11 Mass Murders
Islamic World Deplores U.S. Losses
Looking for Answers in Islam's Holy Book: What Islamic Scholars Have to Say
Muslim Reactions to Sept 11
Muslim Voices Against Extremism & Terrorism - Part II - Statements by Organizations
Muslim World Condemns Attacks on U.S.
Muslim rulers condemn WTC attacks
New Zealand Muslims Condemn Terrorism
Organization of the Islamic Conference Foreign Ministers Condemn International Terrorism
Quran a Book of Peace Not War, Islamic Scholars Say
Scholars of Islam Condemn Terrorism
Some American Muslims Take a Look at Their Communities' Shortcomings
U.S. Muslim Scholars Condemn Attacks
UK Muslim Leaders Condemn 'Lunatic Fringe'
When is jihad OK? Muslim Perspectives

A Common Word Between Us and You, by 130 Islamic scholars
Attacks on Civilians: Forbidden by Islam, by Shaykh Yusuf Qaradawi
Ayatollah Muhammad Husain Fadlallah of Lebanon condemns Osama Bin Laden, by Ayatollah Muhammad Husain Fadlallah
Bin Laden's Violence is a Heresy Against Islam, by AbdulHakim Murad (Tim Winter)
Defending the Civilians (a fatwa against terrorism), by Shaykh Muhammad Afifi al-Akiti
Expert Says Islam Prohibits Violence Against Innocents, by Shaykh Hamza Yusuf
Grand Sheikh of al-Azhar Condemns Suicide Bombings, by Shaykh Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi
High Mufti of Russian Muslims calls for Extradition of Bin Laden, by Russian Muslim leaders
Iran's Supreme Leader Condemns Attacks on U.S., by Ayatollah Ali Khamanei
Islam and the Question of Violence, by Seyyed Hossein Nasr, Iranian scholar
Jihad and the Modern World, by Dr. Sherman Jackson
Jihad: Its True Meaning and Purpose, by Muzammil H. Siddiqui
Most Prominent Sunni Muslim Scholar Condemns Killing of Civilians, by Shaykh Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi, Grand Imam of Al-Azhar University
Muslim Attitudes about Violence, by Shaykh Muhammad al-Munajjid
Muslim Voices Against Extremism and Terrorism - Part I - Fatwas, by various scholars
Muslim Voices Against Extremism and Terrorism - Part IV A few Quotes, by various scholars
On the Terrorist Attacks, by Imam Zaid Shakir
Prominent Pakistani Cleric Tahir ul Qadri condemns Bin Laden, by Tahir ul Qadri
Reclaiming Islam from the Terrorists, by AbdulHakim Murad, British scholar
Reflections on the National Horror of September 11, 2001, by Muzammil H. Siddiqui
Refutation of Bin Laden's Defense of Terrorism, by Moiz Amjad, Pakistani scholar
Response to a Question about Islam and Terrorism, by Moiz Amjad, Pakistani scholar
Saudi Clerics Condemn Terrorism, by Sheikh Abderrahman al-Sudayes
Saudi Grand Mufti Condemns Terrorist Attacks in U.S., by Shaikh Abdulaziz Al-Ashaikh
Scholars' Statements Regarding The Attacks In The United States, by Shaykh Abdul-Aziz Aali-Shaykh, Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and President of the Committee of Senior Scholars, and Shaykh Saleh Al-Lehaydaan, Chief Justice Of The Saudi Arabian Judiciary, and Shaykh Dr. Saaleh Ibn Ghaanem As-Sadlaan, Pres. Higher Studies Dept. Al-Imaam Muhammd Ibn Saud Islamic University
Spanish Muslim Clerical authorities Issue Fatwa against Osamah Bin Laden, by Spanish Muslim leaders
Terrorism Is at Odds With Islamic Tradition, by Khaled Abou El Fadl
Terrorism: Not a doorway to heaven, by Jamil Abdul Razzak Hajoo, of Idriss Mosque, Seattle
The Myth of Islamic Terrorism Exploded, by Shaykh Abdul Azeez bin Abdullah bin Baaz and Shaykh Muhammad Bin Saalih al Uthaymeen
The worst enemies of Islam are from within, by Hamza Yusuf
Top Saudi Cleric Says Attacks on U.S. a Terrible Crime in Islam, by Shaykh Salah al-Lahidan, head of the Islamic Judiciary of Saudi Arabia
Violence Against Innocents Violates Islamic Law, by Imam Siraj Wahhaj
What is jihad? What is terrorism?, by Statement by Muslim scholars

 

[B_VinylBoy]

Wow... first MLB pwns the thread and now Indy.

 

[vince]

Have to agree with Pitbull. There was way too little condemnation by Muslim authorities about 911. The reason they are complacent is probably because they are used to this in their home nations. I mean Americans are idiots too -- Abu Ghraib. Just don't usually see Westerners dragging burned corpses of servicemen through the streets laughing. I suppose we are now headed there though since we've joined in the jihad.

Of course you won't hear "good muslims", as they have been referred to, condemning 9/11, if you don't listen to anything but so-called American "news" stations. (or the BBC for that matter)

For those in this thread who claim that "reasonable muslims" have not condemned the attacks of 9/11:

Thank you Indy, I get so f..ing tried of hearing that lie.

I visited the Middle East during Ramadan a few years ago. Did a week in Jordan (Lost City of Petra), then a second week in Israel (The Dead Sea, Jerusalem & Tel Aviv) and it was a life changing experience I would trade for the world. Never once did I feel my life was in danger, nor was I worried about some Islamic radical running out of the bushes and beheading me for being an American in Jordan. Which says a lot compared to the chickenhearted zealots who assume the worse in anyone or anything that isn't like themselves.

Ramazan starts tonight. At 03:00 the whole country is going to get awakened by those bloody drums... They make sure everyone hears them! This also means we get the special ramazan bread in the shops for the next month! YUM.

It will be very hard this year though. Falling in August when we have 95+ degree heat and long days, it is very bad for people who work outdoors or non air conditioned premises. Many people start the fast but only hold it for a couple of days. I mean no water in these conditions? It is much easier in the winter.

But Allah is a reasonable god. If you can't do the fasting during Ramazan, you are permitted to do it for a longer period later in the year.

 

[TomCat84]

I think whether or not other Muslims have a responsibility to condemn the actions of people who also happen to be Muslim is irrelevant. It's not their job to condemn people, just because they share the same religion. Outrageous that some people would actually propagate that idea. Do I (a white Christian) have the responsibility to condemn the actions of Timothy McVeigh, just because we shared skin color and religion. I mean, of course it's awful, but sharing characteristics doesn't necessitate an apology from me or anyone.

 

[Bbucko]

I think whether or not other Muslims have a responsibility to condemn the actions of people who also happen to be Muslim is irrelevant. It's not their job to condemn people, just because they share the same religion. Outrageous that some people would actually propagate that idea. Do I (a white Christian) have the responsibility to condemn the actions of Timothy McVeigh, just because we shared skin color and religion. I mean, of course it's awful, but sharing characteristics doesn't necessitate an apology from me or anyone.

An apology assumes culpability; if you did nothing wrong, why would you possibly shoulder any blame?

 

[Tevye]

I see the President supports the building of the mosque and I get his reasoning.


His words given at an Iftar dinner at The White House yesterday:




But let me be clear. As a citizen, and as President, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country. (Applause.) And that includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in Lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances. This is America. And our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable. The principle that people of all faiths are welcome in this country and that they will not be treated differently by their government is essential to who we are. The writ of the Founders must endure.

We must never forget those who we lost so tragically on 9/11, and we must always honor those who led the response to that attack -– from the firefighters who charged up smoke-filled staircases, to our troops who are serving in Afghanistan today. And let us also remember who we’re fighting against, and what we’re fighting for. Our enemies respect no religious freedom. Al Qaeda’s cause is not Islam -– it’s a gross distortion of Islam. These are not religious leaders -– they’re terrorists who murder innocent men and women and children. In fact, al Qaeda has killed more Muslims than people of any other religion -– and that list of victims includes innocent Muslims who were killed on 9/11.

Above quotes from President Obama located at Obama Backs NY Ground Zero Mosque : The Two-Way : NPR

 

[ColoradoGuy]

This...

I think whether or not other Muslims have a responsibility to condemn the actions of people who also happen to be Muslim is irrelevant. It's not their job to condemn people, just because they share the same religion. Outrageous that some people would actually propagate that idea. Do I (a white Christian) have the responsibility to condemn the actions of Timothy McVeigh, just because we shared skin color and religion. I mean, of course it's awful, but sharing characteristics doesn't necessitate an apology from me or anyone.

And this...

An apology assumes culpability; if you did nothing wrong, why would you possibly shoulder any blame?