A mosque at Ground Zero!

B_crackoff

Experimental Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2010
Posts
1,726
Media
0
Likes
3
Points
73
@VinylBoy. I have nothing against you and you are aggressively attacking me to the point of concern. I also have nothing against Muslims, just their religion. You're a bit scary my friend...

He stands shoulder to shoulder with the greatest bigots of all time!

I think that Christian/Jews/Muslims woulld all say that the liberal causes llike on demand abortion have killed 30 million! Hehehehhehehe.

But they don't support clinics in Africa - for ethical reasons. Hehehhehehhehehe.

Gotta stick that one in when folks talk about so called religious deaths.

Secular deaths dwarf them. Cos if you're a "liberal"(what a misnomer) - you are God.:wink::biggrin1:
 

B_VinylBoy

Sexy Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Posts
10,363
Media
0
Likes
68
Points
123
Location
Boston, MA / New York, NY
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
@VinylBoy. I have nothing against you and you are aggressively attacking me to the point of concern. I also have nothing against Muslims, just their religion. You're a bit scary my friend...

I tend to be a little rough with people around here, especially when their words don't match their actions. I'm not the person to be scared of... worry more about the fear mongering zealots in power who would lead anyone of us believe that an entire group of people are evil.


He stands shoulder to shoulder with the greatest bigots of all time!

I think that Christian/Jews/Muslims woulld all say that the liberal causes llike on demand abortion have killed 30 million! Hehehehhehehe.

But they don't support clinics in Africa - for ethical reasons. Hehehhehehhehehe.

Gotta stick that one in when folks talk about so called religious deaths.

Secular deaths dwarf them. Cos if you're a "liberal"(what a misnomer) - you are God.:wink::biggrin1:

And you can just ST*U. To stand shoulder to shoulder with the biggest bigots would mean I would have to stand beside YOU. And I'd much rather watch you fall off a ledge.
 

BIGBULL29

Worshipped Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2006
Posts
7,591
Media
52
Likes
14,152
Points
343
Location
State College (Pennsylvania, United States)
Sexuality
Pansexual
Gender
Male
Can I build a Satanic Temple near Ground Zero? My friends and I need a place of worship. That's the only place that's available in the city. Please????

I've had plenty of lovable Muslim friends, but they know what I think of their quacky religion.
And let's face it: moderate Muslims are rarely "tolerant", and if they are, they're just Muslim by tradition, not conviction.

Religion is religion, and for the most part, I don't like it.:wink: And I ain't going to go defend the right for some quacks to build another mosque in NYC when they already have 2 million. Plus, even if they didn't have one, I'm not going to care, either.
 
Last edited:

D_Gunther Snotpole

Account Disabled
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Posts
13,632
Media
0
Likes
73
Points
193
And let's face it: moderate Muslims are rarely "tolerant", and if they are, they're just Muslim by tradition, not conviction.

Got me puzzled there, bb.
Can you elaborate?

Like secular Jews and Hassidim?

Well, sorta.
The secular Jew would be a good counterpart to the 'tolerant' Muslim, if I get his drift ... but I think the Hasidim is a more extreme believer than the 'intolerant' Muslim he may have had in mind.
 

D_Tully Tunnelrat

Experimental Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2004
Posts
1,166
Media
0
Likes
3
Points
258
It could be argued that America was committing Terrorism by killing thousands of innocent Japanese people for their Political Means.

Well, the counter argument, right or wrong, was that dropping the bombs saved millions of both American and Japanese lives, as the Japanese would not have surrendered otherwise; but that was a declared war between traditional nation states, this is not. If Japan had had the bomb, would they have used it to win? Would Germany? Given some of the atrocities committed to win WWII by both of those countries, it would not be far fetched to think they might. Killing is reprehensible, and ugly no matter the guise, or form.

If we get back to the First Amendment of the Constitution, as it's oft quoted here as the open and shut rationale for allowing the mosque, the US Constitution says: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...." It seem to me this language doesn't guarantee any place of worship may be built anywhere, but only that the Congress may not prohibit a religion, just as it may not declare a state sanctioned one.

If you take a look at Reynolds v. US, which was an early test of the First Amendment in this regard, based upon Mormon polygamy, the court specifically states "Laws are made for the government of actions, and while they cannot interfere with mere religious beliefs and opinions, they may with practices." Furhtermore "to permit this would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land, and in effect to permit every citizen to become a law unto himself." This allowed Reynolds conviction of polygamy to stand, and allowed the Court to block other offensive religious practices, such as sacrifices. Although we discuss it as such, in the US, the separation of church and state is by religious opinion, and not by practice, and thus is not absolute.

As many have already pointed out, allowing the mosque to be built, or not, in that location is not the same thing, as whether or not a mosque maybe built in lower NYC, which would seem to be a Constitutional violation. As the "landmark" building group is arguing, the existing building is of such architectural significance (it was the original Burlington Coat Factory), that it should not be torn down. I suspect the argument is a red herring, since it seems abandoned, but nonetheless this whole discussion revolves around location, so it seems pertinent. Likewise, if Imam Rauf had kept the building as a community center, his original intent , and not included the mosque, this project would not be making headlines.

Equally relevant to the discussion, but one I have not seen raised, is whom does the mosque serve? Since religious census data is not gathered, we don't precisely know. Some allege there are only 3K muslims in Lower Manhattan. If so, that's a very small congregation for a 13 floor structure. And there already are two mosques within a 10 block radius from Park51.

Here's a piece on the City's 600K Muslim population.
Columbia News ::: SIPA Conference Discusses New York City's Growing Muslim Population

I do think reciprocal tolerance of other religions in Islamic countries is a relevant point in this discussion, since tolerance, or the lack thereof, is the at the heart of terrorism.

Given the high level of sensitivity those who live and work in that district (I have a cousin who, post 9/11, attended funerals, every Saturday and Sunday for 24 straight months) have about this area, there should have been much better community ground work laid, so as to foster support for that location. I was pleased to read in this interview of Daisy Khan, a founder of Park51, that they are planning to include a memorial to those who died on 9/11, unfortunately it seems to be an add-on to the original proposal. Here's the interview:

Ground Zero Mosque Founder Daisy Khan Interview: Muslim Ties to Lower Manhattan, Building Support and More - Metropolis - WSJ

FWIW - even if it's built with Saudi money (our recycled oil dollars...), building a mosque there, to be used for peaceful prayer, sends a powerful message of inclusion, strength and tolerance that represents the best of what the US stands for. I applaud Bloomberg's anti-discrimination speech, and cringe at Obama's, seemingly politically motivated, partial recantation of his.
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

Account Disabled
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Posts
13,632
Media
0
Likes
73
Points
193
And let's face it: moderate Muslims are rarely "tolerant", and if they are, they're just Muslim by tradition, not conviction.

Got me puzzled there, bb.
Can you elaborate?

If they are, like the ones I know, they just call themselves that because of tradition, not conviction (in other words, they're not taking the dogma of the religion seriously at all).

Okay, gotcha.
Although, personally, I think I've known sincere Muslims who were quite tolerant.
 
7

798686

Guest
Do you want us to go through other religious books and list all of the bloodshed, violence and destruction threatened to "non-believers" that are documented in them?
Feel free.

Let me give you a hint... the Bible actually has a lot more offenses than the Koran.
Does it? You've counted them I suppose? The New Testament doesn't advocate people killing non-believers (which doesn't mean to say it hasn't happened in the past) - they're supposed to leave it in God's hands. I don't think the Jews feel they're intended to kill non-believers, either. However, some Muslims do interpret the Qu'ran that way.

That is such a dishonest twist even for you.
Oh, thanks dude. :rolleyes: Where was the need for that?

The most important fact is that they're a terrorist organization. The fact that they're Islamic should NOT be the main issue since every religion has its small group of fundamentalistic zealots.
Hmmm, not in this instance. I'm not saying Mosques or Islam are wrong - nor am I denying the fact that most religions have small groups of fundamentalist zealots. What I am saying, is that it's insensitive and controversial to build a mosque so close to the site of such a significant terrorist attack, perpetrated by Al Qaeda.
 

flame boy

Account Disabled
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Posts
3,189
Media
0
Likes
193
Points
123
Sexuality
No Response
I was reading about this online last night, interestingly I found that there is a mosque 4 blocks from the WTC site (and it's been there for many years). The proposed new mosque would be 2 blocks nearer - Park Pl to 20 Warren St, New York, NY 10007 - Google Maps - if this Masajid has been there since 1970 without issue I personally fail to see why a building less than 1 minute walk away is any cause for concern.

My biggest problem is that Burlington Coat Factory is gone - now where will I buy fabulous outwear at severely discounted prices?
 
7

798686

Guest
How many ground zeros have America made near mosques in Iraq and Afgahnistan?
Ha!

Actually, part of me thinks the mosque is a horrendously bad idea, and in bad taste. But...also, if it was built, would maybe be a sign that America had moved on slightly, and didn't feel as threatened?

However, I do think it should be for the general public of Manhattan to decide, rather than having their arm forced by the group who wants to build it.
 

Industrialsize

Mythical Member
Gold
Platinum Gold
Joined
Dec 23, 2006
Posts
22,250
Media
213
Likes
32,082
Points
618
Location
Kathmandu (Bagmati Province, Nepal)
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
Ha!

Actually, part of me thinks the mosque is a horrendously bad idea, and in bad taste. But...also, if it was built, would maybe be a sign that America had moved on slightly, and didn't feel as threatened?

However, I do think it should be for the general public of Manhattan to decide, rather than having their arm forced by the group who wants to build it.
Well then, here is what the People of Manhattan think:
And furthermore, opposition was lowest in Manhattan -- the site of the actual Ground Zero location and the 9/11 attacks -- where a 53% majority approved of the Muslim community center, compared to 31% against.


The Out-Of-Towners: Politicians From Far, Far Away Fight Muslim Center In NYC | TPMDC
 
7

798686

Guest
Ahhh, ok then, doesn't seem like they have a problem with it.

If they don't mind...no point worrying.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

nudeyorker

Admired Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
Posts
22,742
Media
0
Likes
815
Points
208
Location
NYC/Honolulu
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
Well then, here is what the People of Manhattan think:
And furthermore, opposition was lowest in Manhattan -- the site of the actual Ground Zero location and the 9/11 attacks -- where a 53% majority approved of the Muslim community center, compared to 31% against.


The Out-Of-Towners: Politicians From Far, Far Away Fight Muslim Center In NYC | TPMDC
I think it depends largely on where you are getting your data for these polls. The polls of NY voters state that 54% percent are opposed. Even more sadly for those of us who live in NY... The MTA has accepted advertisements depicting the photos of the Twin Towers on 9/11 from a group in opposition to the project. They are supposed to be on the NYC buses and subways as early as next week.
I think I'll go back to Hawaii