A mosque at Ground Zero!

[Industrialsize]

From the Quran:
"Whoever killed a person not in retaliation of murder or in spreading mischief in the land it would be as if he killed all mankind and if anyone saved one life it would be as if he saved all mankind" (Qur'an 5: 32). Prophet Muhammad said "Whoever hurts a dhimee (a Jew or a Christian protected by Islamic state) he would be like hurting me and who hurts me, he hurts God."

 

[ColoradoGuy]

. . . Here's a reading list for you. . .

Thanks for posting this list.

I was lamenting to a colleague the other day the relative ignorance genuine online political discussion/argument faces and I related how I had provided a set of books that I knew would provide some good background and clarity of the issues for an opponent who was obviously ignorant of both. My colleague just laughed and shook his head and said: "you know, you can lead them to the table, but you can't make them think."

Apropos, no?

 

[ColoradoGuy]

...open their fucking evil book...

tigolbitties - This type of incredibly bigoted and insensitive language is unacceptable in this Forum. Regardless of your opinion of the Qur'an, you contribute absolutely nothing to the debate by using this type of language and denigrating another religion's sacred texts. All you do by using language like this is sidetrack the discussion and display your own intolerance and ignorance.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

The facts I state aren't based on youtube videos or websites.
It's based on the damn Koran. I've read it.

No it's not. Your "facts" are based on your own fears of terrorist retaliation and ridicule from other jingoistic people who want to paint a picture of all Islam and Muslims as being violent and dangerous. There are actually more verses in the Holy Bible that call for the bloodshed and beatings of non-believers than in the Koran. And as of late domestic terrorism against Muslims on our own shores have grown, such as the attempted pipe bomb in Jacksonville, Florida at a mosque that almost killed 60 people and the recent beating of a Muslim kid and his mom at a baseball game after the opposing team started to racially insult him. The son is now hospitalized and needed to have his mouth wired shut. Where's the apologies for these people? They did nothing wrong.

The fact that these people ARE going out and killing people because their Koran tells them to is SCARY. We shouldn't just let them set up shop whenever they want.

Scott Roeder felt that because of his religious beliefs that he was justified to go into a church and assassinate George Tiller in cold blood. Should we now tell Christians that they can't build a church anywhere near abortion clinics?

Do you really think the people that want this Mosque would both:
A) Apologize and condemn the attacks of 9/11 publically
B) Denounce all sections of the Koran that are violent and sign an agreement that if such parts of their text are read at worship that they will donate the building to a charity that works with families of 9/11 victims.

Many have already "apologized". There are many links to people of Islamic faith that openly condemned the 9/11 attacks on news programs and in magazines. You can look that stuff up for yourself to you actually do care to look. However, to put it as bluntly as possible beyond that... people who weren't involved in the 9/11 tragedy don't owe you anything.

 

[vince]

The facts I state aren't based on youtube videos or websites.
It's based on the damn Koran. I've read it.

The fact that these people ARE going out and killing people because their Koran tells them to is SCARY. We shouldn't just let them set up shop whenever they want.

Do you really think the people that want this Mosque would both:
A) Apologize and condemn the attacks of 9/11 publically
B) Denounce all sections of the Koran that are violent and sign an agreement that if such parts of their text are read at worship that they will donate the building to a charity that works with families of 9/11 victims.

???

Live and work exclusively with Muslims. I haven't even talked to a Christian for about 10 days. My neighbors are Muslims.

My 42 employees are Muslims. About half of them are devout enough to go to Friday prayer and 2 of them do the five times a day thing. Half the team is fasting during Ramazan. Today I was pissed off and yelled at one of them. He didn't shoot me or curse me... all he did was say "Yes Abi, Sorry abi, it won't happen again abi." I am not afraid of him.

I have here some of the best, most helpful and loyal friends a man could ask for. The streets are safe for me and my family. I have less fear for my daughter's personal safety in this 99% Muslim country than I do in Canada.

So what I am telling you is you are wrong with fears and hatred and you don't know what you are talking about in spite of your claims to have read the Quran.

edit- Furthermore, I was here during 9/11 and there was no dancing in the streets, no rejoicing.

 

[tigolbitties]

I'm sorry if my comments offended anyone.

I have read the Koran though, cover to cover, and am convinced this is more than a religion. This is an organization that seeks to destroy Western Civilization - and their religious text tells them to.

 

[Calboner]

I'm sorry if my comments offended anyone.

I have read the Koran though, cover to cover, and am convinced this is more than a religion. This is an organization that seeks to destroy Western Civilization - and their religious text tells them to.

That doesn't square very well with the historical record. A thousand years ago, Islam pretty much WAS Western civilization, at least as far as higher learning was concerned: it was Christians who destroyed it (or simply lost it) and Muslims who preserved it. If you wanted to study philosophy or mathematics or medicine or natural science in those days, you had to learn Arabic.

 

[ColoradoGuy]

Live and work exclusively with Muslims. I haven't even talked to a Christian for about 10 days. My neighbors are Muslims.

My 42 employees are Muslims. About half of them are devout enough to go to Friday prayer and 2 of them do the five times a day thing. Half the team is fasting during Ramazan. Today I was pissed off and yelled at one of them. He didn't shoot me or curse me... all he did was say "Yes Abi, Sorry abi, it won't happen again abi." I am not afraid of him.

I have here some of the best, most helpful and loyal friends a man could ask for. The streets are safe for me and my family. I have less fear for my daughter's personal safety in this 99% Muslim country than I do in Canada.

So what I am telling you is you are wrong with fears and hatred and you don't know what you are talking about in spite of your claims to have read the Quran.

edit- Furthermore, I was here during 9/11 and there was no dancing in the streets, no rejoicing.

Your experience, vince, completely echoes my own living and working in Singapore -- which is a mixed society of Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims and a few Taoists. While Muslims there make up less than 20% of the population, they are the second largest religious group. As a result, I had daily contact with Muslims (although I can only recall one or two who I would call 'devout') and socialized with three Muslims who lived in my apartment tower.

Every one of them I knew was humble, good-natured, extremely generous -- both in their interactions with me and the other "westerners" I hung out with and towards their own community -- and demonstrated genuine respect for others. I could just about guarantee if voices were raised in my office, the disagreement would *not* include any of my Muslim co-workers.

Back to tigolbitties broad generalizations for a second... just as you wouldn't consider a Jehovah's Witness as the same as a Catholic, you should realize that Islam also has many branches, schools of thought, and movements. Even within the Catholic Church, we have different groups and branches. You can't use a 'one-size fits all' description to talk about any large religious group; it just doesn't work. It particularly doesn't work when discussing Islam.

 

[houtx48]

The only people whose opinions should carry any weight on this subject are residents of New York City.

 

[Billy Batts]

That doesn't square very well with the historical record. A thousand years ago, Islam pretty much WAS Western civilization, at least as far as higher learning was concerned: it was Christians who destroyed it (or simply lost it) and Muslims who preserved it. If you wanted to study philosophy or mathematics or medicine or natural science in those days, you had to learn Arabic.

Sure, eventually Arabic culture became more cultivated when they accepted classical knowledge from Persia and Greece as something valuable. But before that, they were just desert nomad zealots that torched the library of Alexandria.

It was the same story with the Christians later..

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Sure, eventually Arabic culture became more cultivated when they accepted classical knowledge from Persia and Greece as something valuable. But before that, they were just desert nomad zealots that torched the library of Alexandria.

There seems to be some doubt about that.
The library of Alexandria was probably destroyed by three separate Roman emperors -- Caesar, in 48 BCE; Aurelian, in the Third Century CE; and Theodosius, in 391 CE.
The alleged destruction by an Arab army in 642 CE has been disputed by such scholars as Bernard Lewis.

 

[D_Dick_Dock_Doe]

We Americans have always had a problem separating our emotions from rational thought. We are free to "feel" whatever we want when it comes to how "appropriate" a Muslim community center 2 blocks from Ground Zero is. What we are not free to do is to deny those who wish to build it there the right to do so. And to think that you can is fundamentally unAmerican.

 

[thoswood]

I wonder if tigolbitties believes everything in the book of Deuteronomy the way she believes everything in the book of Sura? Fine kettle of gefelt fish that would be.

I

 

[vince]

Sure, eventually Arabic culture became more cultivated when they accepted classical knowledge from Persia and Greece as something valuable. But before that, they were just desert nomad zealots that torched the library of Alexandria.

It was the same story with the Christians later..

You have things a little mixed up. I have been to the Library of Alexandria (the new one) and read up a little on the history of the ancient libraries that the city was famous for.

The first burning happened before the Romans during a civil war in Egypt. Then there was a big fire during the conquest of Egypt by Julius Caesar when he ordered the harbour to be burned and the library went up as well. There was a another major fire in Alexandria 300 years later, again during a Roman war. The last major destruction occurred during Christian Byzantine empire. This last burning specifically targeted the library and was hailed at the time as a great victory of Christians over the "pagans".

The Arabs did not conquer Egypt until about 650AD and the library was long gone. Modern scholars pretty much accept that the account of the Arabs using the scrolls to heat their baths is a work of fiction originating in 12th century Europe.

 

[luka82]

I believe Egypt was conquered during the time of `Umar ibn al-Khattāb a decade before 650. But in those times Arabs were not the destroyers, if anything they have tried to have peaceful relationships both with Christians and the Jewish people on the teritories they have conquered.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

I wonder if tigolbitties believes everything in the book of Deuteronomy the way she believes everything in the book of Sura? Fine kettle of gefelt fish that would be.

I don't think the comparison holds.
Many Christians believe that the Christian Bible was written by men and accept that the inclusion of many books and exclusion of others was a political decision taken by the early church.
Muslims believe that the Quran was dictated by Gabriel to Muhammad and represents divine revelation.
I don't know how more liberal Muslims deal with this fact, but I don't think it's by denying its source in divine revelation.
Anyone?

 

[Calboner]

Whoever burned the library of Alexandria, and regardless of whether Islam started out among a buncha igner'nt camel jockeys, my point was simply that the assertion of Tigolbitties that Islam is "an organization that seeks to destroy Western Civilization - and their religious text tells them to" is refuted by the historical record of Islam as the custodian of Western civilization while Christian Europe was in the Dark Ages. Although some adherents of Islam are now trying to bring about a new dark age, I very much doubt that they have a sound scriptural basis for doing so. Their ancestors certainly did not take the Koran that way.

 

[Remington]

That's what's great about America, the right to believe in anything you please without prosecution of the law.

Regardless of my personal feelings toward Islam/Muslims, or any religious group, they're not doing anything wrong by building this thing. And the only reasons why I see people opposed to building this "community center", is to personal beliefs/bias toward muslims, which is utterly irrelevant.

Until someone can prove that they are actually breaking a law, they have the right to build it, no matter one's personal feelings.

My .02

 

[DevonTexas]

That's what's great about America, the right to believe in anything you please without prosecution of the law.

Regardless of my personal feelings toward Islam/Muslims, or any religious group, they're not doing anything wrong by building this thing. And the only reasons why I see people opposed to building this "community center", is to personal beliefs/bias toward muslims, which is utterly irrelevant.

Until someone can prove that they are actually breaking a law, they have the right to build it, no matter one's personal feelings.

My .02

Hey, do not encroach upon our birthright as American's to be butt-hurt about something and complain about it endlessly.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Although some adherents of Islam are now trying to bring about a new dark age, I very much doubt that they have a sound scriptural basis for doing so. Their ancestors certainly did not take the Koran that way.

They think they have a sound scriptural basis ... especially if you include the Hadith, supposedly an indirect source of revelation.
My own impression is that you can use the Quran and the Hadith to support a huge range of behavior (not, I suppose, unlike the Bible).
And today's Islamists think they have many spiritual ancestors.
They believe they're going back to the true Islam.

Even in North America, the imams are more radical than their congregations.

I think more liberal-minded Muslims are diluting their scripture with their humanity ... a good thing.