A mosque at Ground Zero!

[TomCat84]

The only people whose opinions should carry any weight on this subject are residents of New York City.

Wrong. Try again.

 

[TomCat84]

I don't think the comparison holds.
Many Christians believe that the Christian Bible was written by men and accept that the inclusion of many books and exclusion of others was a political decision taken by the early church.
Muslims believe that the Quran was dictated by Gabriel to Muhammad and represents divine revelation.
I don't know how more liberal Muslims deal with this fact, but I don't think it's by denying its source in divine revelation.
Anyone?

This makes no sense. Different Christian denominations feel differently about the Bible and its divine-ness (or lack thereof). The Catholic Church's official teaching is that while it was written by Men, it was divinely inspired. The more evangelical Protestant branches tend to take it a lot more literally. I'm shocked that you would try and pull a fast one like that, and generalize so much.

 

[Billy Batts]

Igne'rnt camel jockeys wasn't quite how I phrased it. What I was trying to convey was that civilization is another matter when discussing religious fundamentalism. Galileo served a life sentence for believing that our earth revolved around the sun for christ's sake.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

This makes no sense. Different Christian denominations feel differently about the Bible and its divine-ness (or lack thereof). The Catholic Church's official teaching is that while it was written by Men, it was divinely inspired. The more evangelical Protestant branches tend to take it a lot more literally. I'm shocked that you would try and pull a fast one like that, and generalize so much.

You need to inform yourself, Tom.
The Quran is supposed to have been dictated directly by the Angel Jibril (Gabriel) to Muhammad over a period of 23 years.
The Arabic text is supposed to be the unassailable, fault-free presentation of Allah's final revelation.
It makes perfect sense.
It may be wrong ... but then, you go out and find proof.
(You won't find it ...)

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Igne'rnt camel jockeys wasn't quite how I phrased it.

True. You said this:

Sure, eventually Arabic culture became more cultivated when they accepted classical knowledge from Persia and Greece as something valuable. But before that, they were just desert nomad zealots that torched the library of Alexandria.

If we split the difference, we'll each be able to buy a cup of coffee.:wink:

What I was trying to convey was that civilization is another matter when discussing religious fundamentalism. Galileo served a life sentence for believing that our earth revolved around the sun.

I'm with you on that. Fundamentalism and civilization are almost always going to be at war with each other.

 

[mitchymo]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof....

It's the last part.If the Cordoba Center meets all local regulations and are denied the right to build simply because they are Muslim, you can bet that if they chose to do so, that decision would be overturned in Court so rapidly your head would spin.

It would not primarily be because they are muslim tho would it?, It would be because of the sensitivities surrounding the location and what the building loosely represents.
Secondly, denying the right to build a mosque does not prohibit the free exercise of religion unless of course a mosque maketh the muslim.
A christian is still a christian without a church, without a bible etc.

Personally i'd happily see ALL religious buildings prohibited in favour of multi-faith constructions as someone previously suggested.
The first part of the quote from the constitution states that no law shall be made respecting the establishment of a religion, however, each time a religious building is erected, mosque, church, synagogue etc, you are without legal backing doing just that.

No new religious building should ever be erected unless to replace a destroyed one until such time as islamic nations prove to be as tolerant of religious freedoms as the values allowing them to practice freely, rightly so. Of course, this could be a little tricky considering the attitudes of muslims towards other religious beliefs and even more so of those who choose to be agnostic or atheist.

I really ought to think that people would take a time out to think about whether religious freedom is really a clever idea or not. It sounds great, wonderful even, but all that seems to be happening is the utilising of western values to spread religion like a new crusade whilst denying people of their own lands the same values.

Are muslims trying to destroy the west?, of course not, but its clear enough that Islam is not a peaceful religion, it is a religion of submission to the one true God. Those who choose not to submit or reject their muslim status can rightfully be killed according to the Qu'ran.

Its easy to argue that different factions within Islam will have different interpretations. Sunni and sh'ite have different hadith whereas 'Qu'ran Only' muslims (in the great minority) refer to NO hadith and only the Qu'ran.
All have the same fundamental beliefs however that can NOT coexist peacefully with western values or other religions religious based laws.

The values they live by do not recognise human rights except those given consent by Allah. They fortunately have little chance of changing the law of the land in nations where they are in the minority and also quite difficult in Turkey where the military has a constitutional duty to protect secularism. But in their own lands where they are free to impose their own law based on their interpretations of the Qu'ran, we saw Afghanistan ruled by the Taliban committing all sorts of human rights abuses and again Iraq, where political opposition was quashed with murder. In Iran, they have a leader who openly calls for the destruction of Israel. In Somalia, a genocide against non muslims and piracy to boot.

The Qu'ran is no different to the Bible, it is being used to commit all sorts of attrocities. The only difference is, like a previous poster said, its happening today rather than 4 or 500 years ago.

If Islam is not challenged then terrorism will win out like it did in Afghanistan and where it dictatorship denies people human rights like in Iraq and in Iran.

Democracy and Secularism, seperating of religion and politics needs to exist in the Middle East. This won't be done simply because we are doing it in the West. So anyone who seeks to suggest that we can export good values are well out of the loop about how Islam works. We would be much better off defending secularism than religious freedom and denying the building of religious based structures in the west until the muslim world has caught up with man made values.

I don't consider myself to be islamaphobic as others have insisted i am, i don't hate, i just don't agree with. And apart from anything else, as a gay person with a social disease (because that is what homosexuality is according to Islam) i have every right to feel a little bit uncomfortable with the existence of that religion in the west.

This site was quite interesting (particularly its view of America), not a site from an Islamic nation but from Australian muslims. And if this is how western muslims are thinking about non muslims and what their religion is all about, you surely have to wonder whether allowing freedom of religion is clever or foolish.

And this particular part is about homosexuality which naturally was of great interest to me. It made me feel ill reading it because this is not radical islamic terrorists, this is western muslims speaking.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

And this particular part is about homosexuality which naturally was of great interest to me. It made me feel ill reading it because this is not radical islamic terrorists, this is western muslims speaking.

That link did not work for me, mitchy.

 

[BIGBULL29]

The facts I state aren't based on youtube videos or websites.
It's based on the damn Koran. I've read it.

The fact that these people ARE going out and killing people because their Koran tells them to is SCARY. We shouldn't just let them set up shop whenever they want.

Do you really think the people that want this Mosque would both:
A) Apologize and condemn the attacks of 9/11 publically
B) Denounce all sections of the Koran that are violent and sign an agreement that if such parts of their text are read at worship that they will donate the building to a charity that works with families of 9/11 victims.

???

I have a dear Muslim friend in Turkey, but he's Muslim out of tradition, not conviction. He knows even that Islam in its moderate form is twisted on many levels.

There is still something inherently violent about modern-day Islam, even though moderates claim to have all these virtues and morals. But, again, if you're born into the religion, it's hard to break from it for fear of dishonoring your family/culture.

I just don't see many Mother Theresas or Saint Dominics with very devout moderate Muslims (no, I'm not Catholic.). At the core of everyday Islam, it's alway that "US" vs. "Them" mentality. There seems to be no deep focus on charity and love for love's sake, as you sometimes see in Christianity and Buddhism.

Yes, I do love many Muslims, but not their religion. :smile:

 

[BIGBULL29]

I have a dear Muslim friend in Turkey, but he's Muslim out of tradition, not conviction. He knows even that Islam in its moderate form is twisted on many levels.

There is still something inherently violent about modern-day Islam, even though moderates claim to have all these virtues and morals. But, again, if you're born into the religion, it's hard to break from it for fear of dishonoring your family/culture.

I just don't see any Mother Theresas or Saint Dominics among very devout moderate Muslims (no, I'm not Catholic.). At the core of everyday Islam, it's always "US" vs. "Them" to preserve their religious ideas. There seems to be no deep focus on charity and love for love's sake, as you sometimes see in Christianity and Buddhism. (If I'm wrong, please show me otherwise so I can so I was wrong.)

Yes, I do love many Muslims, but not their religion. :smile:

 

[mitchymo]

That link did not work for me, mitchy.

Ahh, i changed it now.

 

[TomCat84]

You need to inform yourself, Tom.
The Quran is supposed to have been dictated directly by the Angel Jibril (Gabriel) to Muhammad over a period of 23 years.
The Arabic text is supposed to be the unassailable, fault-free presentation of Allah's final revelation.
It makes perfect sense.
It may be wrong ... but then, you go out and find proof.
(You won't find it ...)

Im just saying that interpretation of the Bible runs the gamut among different denominations, as I'm sure it does among Muslims with the Koran

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Im just saying that interpretation of the Bible runs the gamut among different denominations, as I'm sure it does among Muslims with the Koran

I know what you're saying.
And it's perfectly logical.
But it isn't true.
A Muslim who doesn't take the Quran as the final revelation of Allah, free of faults, already has one foot outside the religion.
There are Arab writers who find fault in the Quran as a piece of writing ... but even that is something they hardly dare say.

Edit: This goes a bit too far. There are, for example, different traditions of Islamic judicial interpretation and so forth. And that is based on both the Quran and the Hadith.
But the range of interpretation is far more limited than anything seen among Christian interpretations of the Bible.
And the idea that the Quran is the final revelation of Allah is, so far as I'm aware, just simply unassailable among Muslims.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Ahh, i changed it now.

Thanks, mitchy.

 

[mitchymo]

Bullshit. Again, it's not the religion but the crackpots that twist the message within it. I don't care if the zealots of one religion have 5, 50 or 500 more instances of violence than the other. It doesn't change ANYTHING. You fix the problem by going after the people who cause them. By taking a swipe at the religion, you unfairly incriminate everyone who follow it but have a respect for human life & decency and are considerate of other people's opinions and feelings. When you blame "Islam" for 9/11, you blame 1.57 billion people around the world. Not just the 19 who hijacked planes and did an unspeakable act under the veil of their religious bigotry.

Do you get it yet?






Bullshit... from a gay angle, they can ALL use some evolutionary work.

In respect of homosexuality there is no twisting, just a disagreement on punishment. The east asian muslim nations like Indonesia have a 'no physical punishment' approach whereas the Middle East has death.

Congratulations VB, you've won a holiday for you and your significant other to either Tehran or Jakarta, so where will it be?

And from an evolutionary angle, christianity has the Anglican church which is embracing homosexuals into their fold, Islam has and never will have a similiar because the Qu'ran is implicit about homosexuality and cannot be contested like the Bible passages condemning it due to the latter being recognised as written by men and the former being direct words of God.

 

[dreamer20]

Do you want us to go through other religious books and list all of the bloodshed, violence and destruction threatened to "non-believers" that are documented in them? Let me give you a hint... the Bible actually has a lot more offenses than the Koran.

Does it? You've counted them I suppose? The New Testament doesn't advocate people killing non-believers (which doesn't mean to say it hasn't happened in the past) - they're supposed to leave it in God's hands. I don't think the Jews feel they're intended to kill non-believers, either. However, some Muslims do interpret the Qu'ran that way.

VinylBoy clearly stated "the Bible" and you responded to his post as if he had said "New Testament". Nevertheless scriptures from both Testaments are used by Christian proponents and opponents of the killing of non- believers to endorse their diametrically opposed views.

Murder in the Bible


How to treat a Pagan Old Testament style - Glocal Christianity

And these Jews endorse the killing of non-believers as done in accordance with the ancient legal code to which they subscribe:

Ultra-Orthodox Judaism/hatespeech towards other Jews - Discussion and Encyclopedia Article. Who is Ultra-Orthodox Judaism/hatespeech towards other Jews? What is Ultra-Orthodox Judaism/hatespeech towards other Jews? Where is Ultra-Orthodox Judaism/hat

 

[Calboner]

And these Jews endorse the killing of non-believers as done in accordance with the ancient legal code to which they subscribe:

Ultra-Orthodox Judaism/hatespeech towards other Jews - Discussion and Encyclopedia Article. Who is Ultra-Orthodox Judaism/hatespeech towards other Jews? What is Ultra-Orthodox Judaism/hatespeech towards other Jews? Where is Ultra-Orthodox Judaism/hat

I read the page (which is mostly copied from Wikipedia). It concerns the attitudes of Ultra-Orthodox Jews toward Jews of other practices; it doesn't really have to do with "non-believers." The nearest thing that I could find to what you describe was the statement of a certain Rabbi Shloosh of Netanya that "Reform Jews are worse than Christians and war should be declared against them." "Declaring war" here is obviously meant in a figurative sense (the rabbi does not command an army), and in any case, the statement has nothing to do with any "ancient legal code."

Anyway, I don't see what this has to do with Islam and the Cordoba House project.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

VinylBoy clearly stated "the Bible" and you responded to his post as if he had said "New Testament". Nevertheless scriptures from both Testaments are used by Christian proponents and opponents of the killing of non- believers to endorse their diametrically opposed views.
Murder in the Bible

All of the listed exhortations to kill non-believers come from the Old Testament.

And then you give a link that demonstrates that Jews were exhorted in the Old Testament to treat pagans with respect:

How to treat a Pagan Old Testament style - Glocal Christianity

... and you make a comparison which you evidently believe will show that Jews will kill unbelievers:

And these Jews endorse the killing of non-believers as done in accordance with the ancient legal code to which they subscribe:
Ultra-Orthodox Judaism/hatespeech towards other Jews - Discussion and Encyclopedia Article. Who is Ultra-Orthodox Judaism/hatespeech towards other Jews? What is Ultra-Orthodox Judaism/hatespeech towards other Jews? Where is Ultra-Orthodox Judaism/hat

...but there is really no mention of murder. One rabbi suggests that war should be declared against Reform Jews ... but it's not specified whether he means actual or merely theological war, and apart from that, there's mostly mention of threats and of some physical attacks that stop far short of claiming life.
And these have nothing to do with pagans ... merely with the antagonism felt by Ultra-Orthodox Jews towards Jews of more liberal bent.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

In respect of homosexuality there is no twisting, just a disagreement on punishment. The east asian muslim nations like Indonesia have a 'no physical punishment' approach whereas the Middle East has death.

Oh, so I can choose to be stoned for being gay or sent to an eternal pit of fire for it. Or, they may not be able to harm me legally according to religious doctrine, but still treat me like shit like every other homophobic Christian, Buddhist, Catholic or any other religion out there with some of their actions potentially resulting in death anyhow. Wow, what a choice.

Congratulations VB, you've won a holiday for you and your significant other to either Tehran or Jakarta, so where will it be?

Well, the hubby and I have already been to Jordan and Thailand for a couple of weeks each within the last few years, so I guess going over to another Eastern country full of Islamic people who all are supposed to hate us for being American and gay because of some holy book wouldn't phase us in the least. Funny how when we walked those streets we didn't feel as if everyone was staring at us and hoping that the almighty Allah would strike us down.

Now when you book us for our global Jihad tour make sure to book us First Class, OK? From what I remembered they serve the best hummus.

And from an evolutionary angle, christianity has the Anglican church which is embracing homosexuals into their fold, Islam has and never will have a similiar because the Qu'ran is implicit about homosexuality and cannot be contested like the Bible passages condemning it due to the latter being recognised as written by men and the former being direct words of God.

You don't need a "religion" to embrace homosexuality. Case in point, not a single religion has embraced the concept wholeheartedly yet we still have places in the world where same sex marriage is legal. All we need is enough individual people to embrace the ideal regardless of their religious affiliation. And when enough of them embrace an idea THAT'S when things change.

Seriously... stop trying to demonize 1.57 billion people with your pathetic rantings. I don't care if you're scared of Mohammed and I'm sick of watching a bunch of chickenhearted zealots try to disguise their fear and resentment behind "pretty words".

 

[vince]

No fair. VB gets to go to Tehran....

Can I come? You'll have more fun if I come too VB.

 

[mitchymo]

Well, the hubby and I have already been to Jordan and Thailand for a couple of weeks each within the last few years, so I guess going over to another Eastern country full of Islamic people who all are supposed to hate us for being American and gay because of some holy book wouldn't phase us in the least. Funny how when we walked those streets we didn't feel as if everyone was staring at us and hoping that the almighty Allah would strike us down.






Seriously... stop trying to demonize 1.57 billion people with your pathetic rantings. I don't care if you're scared of Mohammed and I'm sick of watching a bunch of chickenhearted zealots try to disguise their fear and resentment behind "pretty words".

Its funny how your trips were to countries where homosexuality is LEGAL.

The attitude of the locals were no doubt more moderate than if you had gone to Yemen or Myanmar.


As for the bolded part, please stop beating that drum, its giving me earache.
In any case, its not the people who i have a problem with, its their faith, i'm not going to deny THAT part of the equation, and why should i.
(Just like its not homosexuals that muslims have a problem with, just homosexuality. Have you read through the link i posted earlier on, from Missionislam about homosexuality? )