A mosque at Ground Zero!

[D_Rictiotarvic_Ephenphart]

oops.

 

[jtmony08]

I can't believe we're even debating this. I've fought over there and I can tell you, the US has not had an enemy like this before. Not even the Vietnamese were able to use our laws and sympathetic hearts against us. It's a shame how easy we've forgotten that the 9/11 attackers used the same laws against us. And how how someone in the US helped them plan and finance these attacks. It was in a mosque where these attackers sought refuge. That's not to say that a mosque is a refugee camp for terrorist, but we have to understand Muslim culture. I'll try to explain it the way an Afghan interpreter once explained it to me. Say a fellow Muslim comes to my home seeking help. I don't need to know what he's done, only that he's in need of help. When someone comes to my home looking for him, I'm bound by law (Pashtun law) to assist my guest. He's a guest until he lives my home. Once he leaves, then and only then will I allow him to be harmed. Such loyalty in the US is foreign. Also, the message it would send to insurgents would be that they can attack us on our soil, wait a few years and build even closer to their enemies' hearts. This is the TROJAN HORSE they've been waiting for. Built under the umbrella of creating US jobs only to be used against us later.

 

[B_New End]

I can't believe we're even debating this. I've fought over there and I can tell you, the US has not had an enemy like this before. Not even the Vietnamese

You fought in Afghanistan and Vietnam?

If not, then why should you have credibility to make such a statement if you are going to base it on experience?

This is the TROJAN HORSE they've been waiting for. Built under the umbrella of creating US jobs only to be used against us later.

ridiculous.

 

[TomCat84]

I can't believe we're even debating this. I've fought over there and I can tell you, the US has not had an enemy like this before. Not even the Vietnamese were able to use our laws and sympathetic hearts against us. It's a shame how easy we've forgotten that the 9/11 attackers used the same laws against us. And how how someone in the US helped them plan and finance these attacks. It was in a mosque where these attackers sought refuge. That's not to say that a mosque is a refugee camp for terrorist, but we have to understand Muslim culture. I'll try to explain it the way an Afghan interpreter once explained it to me. Say a fellow Muslim comes to my home seeking help. I don't need to know what he's done, only that he's in need of help. When someone comes to my home looking for him, I'm bound by law (Pashtun law) to assist my guest. He's a guest until he lives my home. Once he leaves, then and only then will I allow him to be harmed. Such loyalty in the US is foreign. Also, the message it would send to insurgents would be that they can attack us on our soil, wait a few years and build even closer to their enemies' hearts. This is the TROJAN HORSE they've been waiting for. Built under the umbrella of creating US jobs only to be used against us later.

So you're saying all mosques are necessarily a terrorist front?

 

[vince]

I knew it would happen.. just not so soon!

 

[mitchymo]

I knew it would happen.. just not so soon!

 

[B_VinylBoy]

I knew it would happen.. just not so soon!

Very naughty, vince... :biggrin1:

 

[ColoradoGuy]

I knew it would happen.. just not so soon!

Actually, the water level will be higher in 2050.

 

[dreamer20]

Happy news! A victory for religious freedom and a defeat for religious-based bigotry was achieved as the NYC panel has cleared the way for the mosque to be built::smile:


NYC panel clears way for mosque near Ground Zero - USATODAY.com

"The city Landmarks Preservation Commission voted unanimously to deny protected historic status to a building that would be torn down to build the center. The 1858 commercial structure did not have enough historic or architectural significance to merit such a designation, the commission said. The ruling was a last hurdle for the cultural center plan, which organizers say will include a gym, cultural and educational activity space, a mosque and a memorial to those who died in the terrorist attacks."

 

[D_Andreas Sukov]

Im suprised about how many people support the Mosque. Im pleasantly suprised.

 

[Bbucko]

Im suprised about how many people support the Mosque. Im pleasantly suprised.

We're not all bigots, sheep and oafs, Lems, though sometimes it feels that way.

 

[mitchymo]

The term 'bigot' is bandied about far too frequently here, and against people who are nothing of the sort.

Having a reason to be against the building of a mosque at ground zero does not autospell this pretty offensive word onto the foreheads of opponents.

Bad taste, disrespect, insensitive etc etc. That is valid enough reason to refuse to allow it. Never IS in the hands of the people though is it. The government will do whatever makes the paycheck come in.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

Oh stop the drama already, michymo.
Your ideologies or opinions do not (and I repeat, DO NOT) trump the dictionary. There are clean cut definitions to the words bigot and bigotry. Let's review them, shall we:

bigot - One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

bigotry - The attitude, state of mind, or behavior characteristic of a bigot; intolerance.

And on the same page...
obtuse or narrow-minded intolerance, especially of other races or religions.

If you make comments that display an intolerance to Islam (or any religion), then those comments are bigoted. The persons who repeatedly make these hateful comments over and over again can be viewed as bigots. Period. Have a problem with it, then take it up with the inventors of the English language.

I'm really getting sick and tired of people who post hateful rhetoric about others based on race, religion, sex or whatever personal characteristic, then complain when people call them on it by saying that they're "name calling". It's such a feeble and weak excuse for people who harbor just as much hatred (if not more) than the ones they chastise. Perhaps you should think twice about using your right to post your opinion around here? Because if your goal is to demonize or belittle a particular group, don't be surprised if the responses back to you are just as demonizing.

My GOD does anyone f***in' think anymore?!

 

[mitchymo]

Oh stop the drama already, michymo.
Your ideologies or opinions do not (and I repeat, DO NOT) trump the dictionary. There are clean cut definitions to the words bigot and bigotry. Let's review them, shall we:

bigot - One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

bigotry - The attitude, state of mind, or behavior characteristic of a bigot; intolerance.

And on the same page...
obtuse or narrow-minded intolerance, especially of other races or religions.

If you make comments that display an intolerance to Islam (or any religion), then those comments are bigoted. The persons who repeatedly make these hateful comments over and over again can be viewed as bigots. Period. Have a problem with it, then take it up with the inventors of the English language.

I'm really getting sick and tired of people who post hateful rhetoric about others based on race, religion, sex or whatever personal characteristic, then complain when people call them on it by saying that they're "name calling". It's such a feeble and weak excuse for people who harbor just as much hatred (if not more) than the ones they chastise. Perhaps you should think twice about using your right to post your opinion around here? Because if your goal is to demonize or belittle a particular group, don't be surprised if the responses back to you are just as demonizing.

My GOD does anyone f***in' think anymore?!

I was responding to Bbucko who had responded to Lem. Bigotry, whilst the motivation to some, claim most if you wish, just show the proof yea, is NOT the only reason for the opposition to this building.

You are a little twister VB, countless times, in response to myself AND other posters, you twist what is being said and argue against them based on that twist. Well if that helps you feel intelligent and well grounded VB, carry on.

 

[Bbucko]

The term 'bigot' is bandied about far too frequently here, and against people who are nothing of the sort.

Having a reason to be against the building of a mosque at ground zero does not autospell this pretty offensive word onto the foreheads of opponents.

Bad taste, disrespect, insensitive etc etc. That is valid enough reason to refuse to allow it. Never IS in the hands of the people though is it. The government will do whatever makes the paycheck come in.

We've never been close around here MM; I've followed the various exploits and dramas around here with a bemused disinterest (at best).

I choose my words very carefully: I am a writer by both calling and profession (I've been published, but decline to provide links here in the interest of maintaining my anonymity). When I chose the word "bigot" I was fully aware of its meaning and its greater connotations socially, but I certainly didn't have you in mind specifically or even generally when I wrote what I did above, though if the shoe fits...

FWIW, "bigot" is a word I use rarely, especially here. Try a search and see for yourself.

I also find it peculiar that I was addressing a Brit (The Lems) whose general antipathy toward much of US society and culture can be well documented, yet it was another Brit who (erroneously) called me out for flaccid word selection over a topic that is American in its subject matter: how would building a cultural center in NYC's financial district (not, as has been reported, at "Ground Zero") really concern you one way or another to the point where you attempt to pull me to the mat over what is, finally, le mot juste?

 

[ColoradoGuy]

Im suprised about how many people support the Mosque. Im pleasantly suprised.

You should make this distinction in your mind: "supporting" the mosque can mean everything from 'yes, build it' to 'the government has no right to block it, and neither do I as a private citizen'. While one end of that spectrum might constitute a wholesale endorsement of the proposal, the other most certainly does not. My hypothesis is that you will find a number of people who "support" the mosque but believe it is in poor taste or simply confrontational to build it near the Ground Zero site.

IMHO, a great outcome would be for the city of New York to allow the permit to go through (because we believe in freedom of worship and we believe that is the "right" thing to do) and for Feisal Abdul Rauf -- the Imam behind the proposed mosque -- to quietly move the proposed location further away from Ground Zero (because he is sensitive to the anguish many New Yorkers feel about 9/11 and because he believes it's the "right" thing to do). It wouldn't be a lot different from Pope John Paul II ordering the Carmelite nuns to move their convent out of Auschwitz in 1989 because of Jewish concerns.

The ability to demonstrate tolerance doesn't necessarily endorse something. As you've noticed, most of us tolerate some pretty poisonous, hateful and ignorant characters in this LPSG forum... but you would be completely off-base to assume that tolerance meant anything more meaningful.

 

[mitchymo]

I choose my words very carefully: I am a writer by both calling and profession (I've been published, but decline to provide links here in the interest of maintaining my anonymity). When I chose the word "bigot" I was fully aware of its meaning and its greater connotations socially, but I certainly didn't have you in mind specifically or even generally when I wrote what I did above, though if the shoe fits...


I also find it peculiar that I was addressing a Brit (The Lems) whose general antipathy toward much of US society and culture can be well documented, yet it was another Brit who (erroneously) called me out for flaccid word selection over a topic that is American in its subject matter: how would building a cultural center in NYC's financial district (not, as has been reported, at "Ground Zero") really concern you one way or another to the point where you attempt to pull me to the mat over what is, finally, le mot juste?

It was my understanding that a mosque was being planned for the WTC site and as such, i disagreed with the idea of it.

Having then read your response to Lem, it simply appeared you were suggesting everyone who was against the idea may be bigotted for that.

Having been called a bigot for my opposition to the full face veil on 'other' thread, it becomes somewhat aggravating to see the word.

So, basically, i got a bit annoyed over something which you said, but i kinda misunderstood the issue. So for that, my sincere apologies. I would'nt have an issue at all with the building of a mosque anywhere outside of ground zero.

 

[Bbucko]

So, basically, i got a bit annoyed over something which you said, but i kinda misunderstood the issue. So for that, my sincere apologies. I would'nt have an issue at all with the building of a mosque anywhere outside of ground zero.

Apology accepted. Twelve blocks away is not "Ground Zero".

Edited to add: This has been used as a political football for those who feel that the "War on Terrorism" is an excuse to curtail religious freedom of American Muslims and who are rallying the troops for nothing short of a counter-jihad of equal (if not greater proportions) to the tragedy of 9/11.

Reactionary forces in the US are always on the lookout for an enemy, from Communists to Feminists to GLBTs; the only problem with the facile attempt at broad-brushing Islam is our First Amendment, which is quite clear on the subject of any "national religion" of any sort.

 

[B_New End]

Yup. The only reason to oppose the mosque is bigotry, plain and simple. It's obvious, and those who use long ass arguments talking about security or national landmarks are only doing so to hide their bigotry.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Twelve blocks away is not "Ground Zero".

Isn't it two blocks away?
Just a point of information.
I agree with Bbucko and others that allowing the mosque to be built would be a good thing.