A mosque at Ground Zero!

[Big Irish]

What is an appropriate distance?

Near Central Park might be nice.

 

[TopDudeFtl]

Like many things, this whole thing has been blown out of proportion, for instance; the site is two blocks from the Ground Zero site. Next, the plans are for a cultural center, not a mosque. The center will, more than likely, also have a mosque but I was not able to confirm it. According to the Cordoba Initiative's web site (the group that is proposing the project), there is no mention of a mosque. That doesn't surprise me at all though; why mention it when it is such a sensitive issue.

If you can identify me in this crowd you win a prize. I was not aware that a final decision was made. Hopefully this will get tied up in as much red tape as rebuilding the World Trade Center.

I found you! Left side of the picture, in front of the red umbrella, right behind the guy in the blue shirt...with your white hat on. :biggrin1:

It's called freedom of religion, as guaranteed by the Constitution. Muslims didn't cause 9/11; terrorists did. And all religions have terrorists.

And saying this project should not be allowed near Ground Zero is like saying that a church shouldn't be built near the site of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in downtown Oklahoma City, Oklahoma because Timothy McVeigh was a Christian.

 

[Bbucko]

Like many things, this whole thing has been blown out of proportion, for instance; the site is two blocks from the Ground Zero site. Next, the plans are for a cultural center, not a mosque. The center will, more than likely, also have a mosque but I was not able to confirm it. According to the Cordoba Initiative's web site (the group that is proposing the project), there is no mention of a mosque. That doesn't surprise me at all though; why mention it when it is such a sensitive issue.

Isn't it two blocks away?
Just a point of information.
I agree with Bbucko and others that allowing the mosque to be built would be a good thing.

I stand corrected. I was posting based on something I'd read about a week ago on the subject (which, quite honestly, isn't on the front burner of my interest stove) that had evidently been incorrectly filed away in my brain. My short-term memory is shit.

I should have verified my point with a link prior to posting, as is generally my habit here :redface:

And saying this project should not be allowed near Ground Zero is like saying that a church shouldn't be built near the site of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in downtown Oklahoma City, Oklahoma because Timothy McVeigh was a Christian.

Excellent point, my friend. It's really good to see you post here in this forum; your continued participation would be most welcome :wink:

 

[B_VinylBoy]

I was responding to Bbucko who had responded to Lem. Bigotry, whilst the motivation to some, claim most if you wish, just show the proof yea, is NOT the only reason for the opposition to this building.

I live less than 30 minutes away, walking distance, from Ground Zero so I can tell you more about the attitudes around here than you could ever tell me.

Fear & resentment towards Muslims and the followers of Islam is the main reason opponents don't want the mosque. The stimulus generates a lot of discriminative and bigoted opinions, even from people who "claim" that they're not. And some people may not be a bigot for making such a comment. However, when one does it repeatedly what are others supposed to think?

You are a little twister VB, countless times, in response to myself AND other posters, you twist what is being said and argue against them based on that twist. Well if that helps you feel intelligent and well grounded VB, carry on.

I don't twist a thing.

The only thing I can go by on this board is your text. And if it holds a bigoted sentiment, then it will be labeled as such. Period.

Holding everyone who follows a religion accountable and judging then negatively based on the actions of a few is a form of bigotry. Period.

Have you worded any sentence on the subject matter in that form? Yes, and several times.

You do the math.

 

[Billy Batts]

Why not just make the Alamo into a mexican restaurant.

 

[lpsg17]

I have no fear or animosity toward anyone who follow Islam. As a matter of fact I have a very close Muslim friend who for the record is also opposed to a Mosque being built in the shadow of ground zero out of principle but also the simple fact that if it is built it is going to forever be fraught with problems of violence and ill will.

I agree just because you have the right to do something, does not make it the right thing to do.

 

[Pitbull]

No mosque near Ground Zero.

 

[Pendlum]

Why not just make the Alamo into a mexican restaurant.

This is more akin to a Mexican restaurant near the Alamo.

 

[Billy Batts]

This is more akin to a Mexican restaurant near the Alamo.

Maybe not the best analogy, but my point should be clear. The families of the victims are still alive. This is very disrespectful to so many who were traumatized by what happened on 9/11. Honestly, it's an interesting idea, but it's far too soon I think for something like this.

 

[B_dxjnorto]

This is more akin to a Mexican restaurant near the Alamo.

Maybe not the best analogy, but my point should be clear. The families of the victims are still alive. This is very disrespectful to so many who were traumatized by what happened on 9/11. Honestly, it's an interesting idea, but it's far too soon I think for something like this.

I agree. Too obvious a target for nutters.

 

[Pendlum]

I would say it would be disrespectful if it were a memorial to the terrorists, but it isn't. It's a community center that will also have a mosque for people to worship in. In fact, it will have a memorial to the victims of 9/11.

 

[Pendlum]

Those who will be running the center and mosque as well those who will go there are well aware of the risks, I'm sure. I respect the fact that they aren't cowering away from the threat of violence.

If I'm completely frank, I don't want the mosque built, but that is because I don't want any religious buildings to exist. However, I respect freedom of religion, so I don't oppose it being built.

 

[Stretch]

You should make this distinction in your mind: "supporting" the mosque can mean everything from 'yes, build it' to 'the government has no right to block it, and neither do I as a private citizen'. While one end of that spectrum might constitute a wholesale endorsement of the proposal, the other most certainly does not. My hypothesis is that you will find a number of people who "support" the mosque but believe it is in poor taste or simply confrontational to build it near the Ground Zero site.

IMHO, a great outcome would be for the city of New York to allow the permit to go through (because we believe in freedom of worship and we believe that is the "right" thing to do) and for Feisal Abdul Rauf -- the Imam behind the proposed mosque -- to quietly move the proposed location further away from Ground Zero (because he is sensitive to the anguish many New Yorkers feel about 9/11 and because he believes it's the "right" thing to do). It wouldn't be a lot different from Pope John Paul II ordering the Carmelite nuns to move their convent out of Auschwitz in 1989 because of Jewish concerns.

The ability to demonstrate tolerance doesn't necessarily endorse something. As you've noticed, most of us tolerate some pretty poisonous, hateful and ignorant characters in this LPSG forum... but you would be completely off-base to assume that tolerance meant anything more meaningful.

Brilliant post

Maybe not the best analogy, but my point should be clear. The families of the victims are still alive. This is very disrespectful to so many who were traumatized by what happened on 9/11. Honestly, it's an interesting idea, but it's far too soon I think for something like this.

Not quite as brilliant...but your point is, not only clear, but more then a bit naive. An interesting idea?...far too soon for something like this? When do you acknowledge an "interesting idea" as an actual reality and when do you deem it no longer "far too soon"?

 

[Billy Batts]

Fact is, that area is a grave site, like Auschwitz. Our opinions on the issue shouldn't matter as much as the opinions of those who lost loved ones during 9/11.

 

[Rammajamma771]

Now how many millions were the WTC victims' families paid to bring them 'closure'. The money was supposed to help them get past the pain. They received considerably more than the families of soldiers killed in Afghanistan or Iraq. Should the Muslims build the Islamic center there - NO! I'm tired of political correctness and sensitivity being something I'm supposed to observe but that others can disregard. Let me ask this, would a pizza parlor be acceptable. If pizza is acceptable then so should the 'mosque'.

 

[Gillette]

The question is however, is it better to build and expose those issues head on and deal with the consequences as those issues are hopefully dispelled and evolve to new understandings, or to not build and avoid facing those same prevalent issues, which will remain regardless and continue to fester.

Best point made on this thread. If those who think "muslims", as a general concept, are responsible for the attack are allowed to block construction based on location then they'll be able to reinforce that connection in their minds. Having the city allow it might make them think (one hopes) that there are finer distinctions to consider, and having it built and operating should force them to challenge their own views.

Had this actually been on ground zero I would have thought a combined worship center of the three Abrahamic faiths would be a nice symbol of America's "melting pot" philosophy. But being as it's two blocks away, two NYC blocks at that (they're huge), well cripes. Fuss much?

probably the same reason his gay black friend opposes the civil rights act and gay marriage.

Don't do that. There is no reason to believe that the friend mentioned is a fabrication. Moreover, you're a little fucked in the head if you think a gay black person opposing civil rights and gay marriage is on par with a muslim disagreeing with the placement of a mosque.

I normally approve of your posts because despite your contentious views you post those views intelligently. This post fails that test. Badly.

And saying this project should not be allowed near Ground Zero is like saying that a church shouldn't be built near the site of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in downtown Oklahoma City, Oklahoma because Timothy McVeigh was a Christian.

Amen.

 

[dreamer20]

Maybe not the best analogy, but my point should be clear. The families of the victims are still alive. This is very disrespectful to so many who were traumatized by what happened on 9/11. Honestly, it's an interesting idea, but it's far too soon I think for something like this.

^^More Islamophobic bigotry on parade.

Quote:Michael Bloomberg:

"The simple fact is, this building is private property, and the owners have a right to use the building as a house of worship, and the government has no right whatsoever to deny that right. And if it were tried, the courts would almost certainly strike it down as a violation of the U.S. Constitution.

"Whatever you may think of the proposed mosque and community center, lost in the heat of the debate has been a basic question: Should government attempt to deny private citizens the right to build a house of worship on private property based on their particular religion? That may happen in other countries, but we should never allow it to happen here.

"This nation was founded on the principle that the government must never choose between religions or favor one over another. The World Trade Center site will forever hold a special place in our city, in our hearts. But we would be untrue to the best part of ourselves and who we are as New Yorkers and Americans if we said no to a mosque in lower Manhattan."

​

Bloomberg's Conservative Argument for the Ground Zero Mosque - Politics - The Atlantic

 

[unabear09]

The only things I have to say on this matter are the following.

#1 Religion has been the downfall of man since the dawn of time, and will eventually lead to the downfall of man today.

#2 If what I know is true, and the WTC site is owned by the NY/NJ port authority, thus making it owned by a governmental agency, then wouldn't it be a violation of the seperation of church and state? (don't jump on me, just throwing it out there).

#3 I personally think that using the excuse "oh well it doesn't need to be built because its a matter of maintaining the peace/curtailing violence, etc." is a cop out and a poor attempt to cover up racism/biggotted feelings. Thats like someone saying to a black man "I'm not a racist, because I have a black friend."

I personally think that the mosque should be allowed to be built. Its the 21st century...this shouldn't even be an issue. We're all supposed to be religiously tolerant of others. Its a crying shame that there is even a discussion here.

#2

 

[Billy Batts]

^^More Islamophobic bigotry on parade.

And how did you come to that conclusion? My grandfather was muslim. Go figure... idiot.

 

[Gillette]

#2 If what I know is true, and the WTC site is owned by the NY/NJ port authority, thus making it owned by a governmental agency, then wouldn't it be a violation of the seperation of church and state? (don't jump on me, just throwing it out there).

It's two blocks away, on private property.