a question for gay men.....

Bbucko

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bucko:

based on stereotypes, 'the gayest of gay' will materialize in your imagination.... just like 'the blackest of black' or 'the whitest of white'.... everyone knows what it is, and it's sad that people don't express it or how it makes them feel....

i won't be that insecure....

I try my best to avoid stereotyping people, I like to say the "generalizations are generally wrong [incorrect in their assumptions]". I suppose, not having met me, that you might presume that I'm "the gayest of gay" because of my having come out in high school in 1977 or maybe because I've always been more comfortable living predominately gay neighborhoods (I've even written and published articles on it) rather than the rather isolated environment in CT, with its 1.5 acres, the two vehicles and giant Chocolate Lab (the only thing about life with Kenny that I really miss. You may have even caught a post or two where I mention that I've worked in a gay bar for the last four years following the collapse of my 25+ year career.

But if we're stereotyping, I lose at least 15 points for being a completely non-versatile top; I cannot be successfully penetrated without feeling raped. I've discussed this aspect of my life ad nauseum, including in the OP of this thread I started just last week.

Despite Kenny's having a relentlessly "straight" demeanor (voice, carriage/gait, profession, vehicle, choice of friends), he was/is still no less gay than me in any sense of the word. In fact, if we're interested in stereotyping, he's at least 15 points gayer, because he couldn't top anyone with a gun to his head: the multiple three-ways we had over the years proved that unequivocally. That's the problem with stereotypes: they don't fit anyone specifically much like a "one size fits all" shirt doesn't. And they obviously negate the ideals of individualism, which is one of the most vital concepts of my self-identity and the life I've always lived.

One of the issues I've had with this thread from the beginning is how difficult you seem find discussing your real point, vacillating between poorly-chosen words and phrases and oblique euphemisms so vague as to be incomprehensible or meaningless. Unless your only real point is that you feel that GLBTs are unfairly portrayed on TV, Hilly got it right when he said that this thread is about your personal distaste for stereotypically gay behavior, appearance and attitudes.

If your main point, on the other hand, is that GLBTs really are unfairly represented in "mass media", then I suggest you turn off the TV. No one is treated respectfully in sitcoms (where everything's a joke) or reality TV (which thrives on a manufactured drama in the editing room when not manipulated directly by the producers). The small bits of TV that I get comes off the internet, and that suits me just fine.

If Perez Hilton bothers you half as much as he does me, then try Towleroad, Dan Savage (Savagelove), Joe My God, Box Turtle Bulletin, Pam's House Blend or even Gawker: all are gay owned and operated, have a distinct POV in favor of healthy and realistic portrayals of GLBTs. If all you get is a steady diet of shock-talk TV, Will and Grace and Project Runway, no wonder you're miserable with how we're portrayed. I would be, too.
 

Lex

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Not fitting neatly into any one "type" is a good thing. I can attest to Bbucko not fitting any particular gay mold based on our times spent together.

As for me, I like bears, and muscle bears although my tastes are wide. My man and I move in and out of the bear crowd, levi crowd, we both love leather, some BDSM activities, are just catching up on Glee, enjoy shows like Lie to Me, True Blood, Mad Men, love the DIY network, dress well, and have many, diverse friends (both gay and straight). Both of us can and are as Butch as we wanna be and can camp it up with the best of them. We go might go to the rodeo when it is in town, spend an evening at a fancy restaurant, or just have a bunch of friends and family over for an impromptu BBQ.

We are comfortable in all places and love the fact that we can move in and out of various gay and straight subcultures.

I guess my point is - there is no single, defining GAY attribute. Just be the best you you possibly can and resist the sheep-like socialization that society will market towards you.

That is as me-against-the world as I can get--by fiercely being an individual.
 
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good points gentlemen.... (though midlifebear could have been a little nicer about it....)

i'm putting this thread out there because i know there are others who feel the way i do, and it would be a great help to start a dialogue about it.... i'm not looking for people to judge me, nor am i expecting anything sympathetic from anyone.... just tell your stories and share your points of view on this topic....

I agree with you on the notion of being in school and being called those names before any one honestly knew what those words meant. I was teased all through school about it. I will agree though that the mass media does a sorry job at showing the many sides to the lgbt community. I could relate to some of the gay or gay portrayed guys on TV though but there hasn't been a show where they accurately more or less portray how we see or how the lgbt community is. Then again the mass media muffs up a LOT of things. They can take a star and turn them into pregnant, disease filled, crack addict in like 15mins.
 

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>First, the OP (I think I'm using the term right. I'm new here. Original Poster? I mean Concupisys) worded some shit wrong and pissed some people off. What of it? People say shit all the time that pisses people off. I understand PC to some degree, but there's a point. Most of you would have no problem saying the idea of fucking a chick disgusts you, but people don't flip out and go nuts on people.<

Yes, and he was complaining that he gets flak for saying those. Well, duh. He has no tact. And no, the idea of fucking a chick doesn't disgust me- it just doesn't do anything for me, and that's how I word it- and no one gets pissed off.

>I first realized I was gay literally months before the Matthew Shepherd murder, and just a few months after that the highly publicized murder of Barry Winchell, who I believe was generally straight, but the media at the time spun it into a "gay soldier beaten to death" type headline.<

He was a soldier who fell in love with a DRAG QUEEN...you can't get much more feminine than that. Notice how the OP pointed out that he's done PROFESSIONAL DRAG? The OP has a lot of self loathing going on.

>In terms of the whole flamers vs butch gay guys argument, I personally think there are a number of ways to view the whole situation. In my experiences with the vast majority of homophobes I've met, I've found that it's not so much the idea of two men sleeping together and being with each other as a couple, that disturbs them. It's the outright betrayal of masculinity which the stereotypical gay guy represents. There are two friends of mine in particular which come to mind. <

But see that's just the thing, it's NOT a betrayal of masculinity. Masculinity doesn't have to be an all or nothing prospect, where you talk like a dude, walk like a dude, fuck like a dude, chase chicks like a dude, go to football games like a dude, etc. My bf SOUNDS much more masculine than me, but my interests are more stereotypically masculine (except I dont know the first thing about cars). I'm much more comfortable kicking back at a baseball or football game and having a few cold ones than I am at the big gay clubs in town. But I LOVE LOVE getting pounded by a nice cock, and bottoming does nothing for my bf (He's a total top). But those are just my interests. Masculinity is so much more than how one carries himself. Besides, I don't know too many str8 guys that could hold their own against some drag queens that I know. They are vicious. haha.

As for your anecdotes about your friends, if they are adults, THEY are responsible for their own ignorance and bigotry. It isn't the fault of anyone else, and I don't have to be nice to them when they display their obvious bigotry/ignorance in my direction. The onus is on THEM to treat EVERYONE (even steretypically gay folks) with respect and dignity. And if you didn't know "flamer" was a derogatory term for gays, then I don't know what to say. It's just not a polite term.

Alright this was pretty much what I wanted to reply to.

I personally would say the image of fucking a chick or going down for a mouthful of clam sandwich would be disgusting to me. It could be my OCD, but every gay guy I've met was inclined to agree with me. I actually have a story about my ex bf that kinda gives an idea. He was friends with this one chick and she wanted him to mess around with her. Well in order to bring himself to finger her, he had to get a pair of those yellow rubber dish washing gloves that go half way up your forearm, and fucking was out of the question since he just couldn't stay hard...but that could have been the double wrapped condoms to who knows. Now getting blown by a chick I'm apathetic about. I really could care less, and if some girl was so inclined I'd let her go to town.

The Barry Winchell thing is a hard subject because it really depends on if you believe Transexuals are for all intent and purpose, a member of the sex they see themselves as. The two of them were publicly a heterosexual couple, but in the bedroom, given that Ms. Addams was pre-op at the time, It had to have been homosexual acts. However if the murder itself had not happened, would you now classify Barry Winchell as straight seeing as his lover is now legally, and biologically female? Calpernia herself has said that one of the big things about Barry was that he was absolutely heterosexual, not someone who was using her as a stepping stone into full fledged homosexuality which is apparently very common in the trangender community. She performed in drag shows, but she was not however a drag queen. Drag queens don't live as their persona full time. Calpernia was, and is simply a performer.

The part about the OP having done drag could be a sign of self loathing. It could be something else though. In cities it's not uncommon for even straight men to do drag simply because apparently in the right places it pays damn well. I've had some performers from NYC tell me that in just your basic bar you can get more money in a few hrs a night for a couple nights a week, than you would working full time at most basic jobs. I don't know where the OP was doing it, but it's possible that was his original reason for doing drag, and after that the attention and ability to step outside of his own world for a time made the whole thing grow on him. If anything his willingness to admit openly that he had done drag shows me it's not something he is ashamed of, rather than him having done it but keeping it his own dirty little secret in some deep recess of his mind. I don't think doing drag for a couple hours for 1 to 4 nights a week, and being a feminine/flamboyant gay guy full time are always the same thing. For some, or even most sure, but for all, I don't think so. To say it is once again just has us lumping people together that have a couple things in common, in this case drag, and pegging them as all the same, when thats just not so.

About masculinity, I personally am not saying that masculinity is an all or nothing thing. Obviously it's not. However what the media chooses to SHOW us is. How many times have you seen images or shows on TV where flamboyant gay men are at a football game, or working on a car? You don't. You see feminine gay men working in hair salons, on project runway, and doing interior decorating. I went to gay pride in NYC in 2009, and they have the gay firemen and gay police officers of NYC marching. On TV you don't see that part of the parade. You see the floats with the Cuban drag queens and half naked over the top camp twinks covered in glitter and makeup. From what the rest of the world sees of us through the media, 99.9% of the time it is absolutely feminized gay men and as such we as a group in it's entirety are a betrayal to masculinity as is seen in by those who only know gay men as what they've seen on TV. Exactly how many gay men do you think your average farmer in the rural midwest, or the bible belt know personally? Most likely none, and if they do know any around town, it's likely they are of a more feminine disposition, and are kept at a distance because they hate and fear what they have seen on TV and equate them to be the same. It could very well be that the gay guy in question is a bull rider, or is a huge baseball fan, but none of that matters when no one gets to know you to find out. That one guy surely isn't the only gay guy in town, but the problem is the others who can live in the closet because they are more masculine, or at least can pull off the 24/7 lie, do. Thats the reason Harvey Milk told us that the best way for us to gain acceptance as a group was to come out of the closet; because by doing so we let those who were already close to us find out the truth by actually experiencing it. In that time we had a far worse reputation than just being feminine. We were pedophiles and rapists who only thought of ourselves and since we couldn't reproduce on our own we were always on the lookout for new recruits. That is a WAY more extreme and horrible stereotype than being feminine, and yet people faced up to it, and came out. My mom is a perfect example of someone who was drastically changed by someone coming out (i.e. me). She was an Irish/Italian Catholic woman raised in an extremely conservative family in a time where being a racist was a pretty normal thing for far more people than it is now. Today she, like me, has denounced her Catholic faith, votes Democrat of all things, and is quite offended by certain terms being used to refer to certain groups of people.

This whole thing really does go for my friends to. Yes as adults they are responsible for their own ACTIONS. I don't bullshit or try to pass off blame from my one friend when he was bashing gays, however humans are animals. More importantly we are social animals with a pack mentality. We learn how to behave and what is right and wrong from those around us, and what we observe others doing. We don't always question why thins are that way, we just go along with it. Not until some reality punches us in the face do we look at different perspectives and actions and THEN question. I mean how many of us one day got a hardon in the locker room and said to ourselves "oh...guess I'm gay. Well thats cool."? Few of us did. Why? Because even we ourselves thought it was wrong on some level or another. It's not always even so much what we see and hear as what we DON'T see. We didn't grow up seeing guys in a relationship with each other. It was always a man and a woman. You didn't see advertisements for...idk cologne, where the guy putting it on was intending to pick up other men. Characters in the books you read weren't gay. The prince never killed the dragon to save the prince of another kingdom who he loved, and Mario really was actually cleaning peoples pipes on weekends, but for money, it wasn't code for a hot hookup with the paperboy (Nintendo joke). We learn what is dangerous based on if it looks strange to us. If you see a member of your tribe with some strange rash, or growing pustule, you learn to stay the fuck away from them, or even to cast them out of the tribe. Similarly if you see two dudes kissing, and you haven't experienced this before, then something is wrong and you need to avoid it, or isolate it. It's how we're genetically built. People fear what they do not understand. So do I blame people for jumping to conclusions or acting in a certain way about something they know nothing of? No. Not really. Nor do I feel it's right for us to expect them to simply take us as we are right away and completely change their way of thinking. It's up to us to give them that punch in the face of reality. Whether as friends, family, neighbors, or just strangers on the street expressing public displays of affection with out lovers the same way a heterosexual couple might. Because only when something becomes the norm, or at least isn't so absolutely bizarre, will people start to accept it as a part of society rather than have that knee jerk reaction to avoid, or feel revolted by us.
 

Smaccoms

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thing about the strongest stereotypes, one of the biggest reasons so many people don't like is because they're the most popular stereotpes, you have a lot of guys fitting themselves into the definition, and you can tell. Everthing about a guy imitating a specific stereotype is superficial, shallow, and kind of pathetic really.
Then you have guys who dont put themselves in the stereotype, that's pretty much just who they are. They aren't faking anything, or putting up some dumb act, just being themselves. That's cool, whatever.
Live and Let live isn't really conducive with putting up an act, is it? Maybe everything I'm saying here could be summed up in the phrase "trying too hard?"
 

TomCat84

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thing about the strongest stereotypes, one of the biggest reasons so many people don't like is because they're the most popular stereotpes, you have a lot of guys fitting themselves into the definition, and you can tell. Everthing about a guy imitating a specific stereotype is superficial, shallow, and kind of pathetic really.
Then you have guys who dont put themselves in the stereotype, that's pretty much just who they are. They aren't faking anything, or putting up some dumb act, just being themselves. That's cool, whatever.
Live and Let live isn't really conducive with putting up an act, is it? Maybe everything I'm saying here could be summed up in the phrase "trying too hard?"

Well, for some odd reason, people are shocked....SHOCKED....that I LOVE LOVE LOVE watching/going to NFL and MLB games. Even the queeniest queens will surprise you. I mean, I'm not a queen, but youd think so if you talked to me on the phone or had sexual relations with me. I pretty much only bottom....and along with the high pitched voice, gives folks the impression that I'm some sort of nelly Nancy. Get to know a person before you assume anything...
 

D_Pubert Stabbingpain

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In terms of the whole flamers vs butch gay guys argument, I personally think there are a number of ways to view the whole situation. In my experiences with the vast majority of homophobes I've met, I've found that it's not so much the idea of two men sleeping together and being with each other as a couple, that disturbs them. It's the outright betrayal of masculinity which the stereotypical gay guy represents. . . .

I have talked to so many people who believed they hated gay guys and learned otherwise through me, and I don't fault these people for their past views because I honestly don't see them at fault for the way they see things. It is the fault of our media which shows a piece of our subculture, whether it's a majority of us or not, and gives the impression that it is most if not ALL of us who act like that. It is also our societies fault. From the day we are born, men are treated differently from women. A young girl who likes to climb trees and has no interest in makeup, is a tomboy. Where as a little boy who plays with dolls has something wrong with him and needs a Tonka truck asap. We pick out blue for our baby boys because pink is a feminine girls color. In highschool we push masculinity on each other. You have to be the best at everything. You must be athletic. You must get as much of the hottest pussy as you can. And most importantly you must berate those who are not as masculine, and as such awesome as you are. All of these things are wrong, and I believe is whats really at the core of so much homophobia. Because people combine what they learn from the media, and learn from society, and automatically equate gay with feminine, and being feminine as a male is bad.

Gay = culture
Getting fucked up the ass = sex
Most people equate the latter with the former but what many, especially men, are saying now is that the 2 are mutually exclusive; i.e., you can get fucked up the ass without being in to all the stereotypical gay culture that has typically been identifed with being fucked up the ass. Here is an example:

Androphilia is a sexual preference for men (Androphilia and gynephilia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) that, acording to Jack Malebranche in "Androphilia, A Manifesto: Rejecting the Gay Identity, Reclaiming Masculinity," emphasizes masculinity and rejects "gender nonconformity" as seen in parts of the "gay identity." In other words, men prefering the company of other men that don't act like women.

This term has been used since the late 1800's, coined by German Dr Magnus Hirschfeld.

You can accept this viewpoint as legitimate as presented by Jack Malebranche and others or, you can see this as Hyper-Masculinity, just another gay sub-culture (e.g., bears, leather, gym muscle) or, you can view this as another attempt to deny internalized homophobia; men trying to be something other than what they see in gay culture out of fear that they themselves may become like that if they lowered their guard. The fact of the matter is it really makes no difference as long as someone is truly comfortable with themself. However, no one else will know whether or not another person is totally comfortable and accepting within themself so, we are not qualified to lay judgement on that person or, their choice of "fetish" (as an earlier poster put it). Someone once said "Gay does not define me. I define what is gay."

Media is not totally to blame. The unfortunate fact is that even though many men do not subscribe to the "historical" gay cultural interests and behaviors and many would even prefer to not be known as "gay," this same gay culture is the first to blurt out loud and clear "I'll bet that Mary is the first to have her legs in the air!" To which I would respond (as a man who identifies here on lpsg as 100% gay but who dated women almost exclusively for 2/3 of his life and sometimes still wonders if I may ultimately "settle down" with a woman), "You know, I really try not to judge other people because you really have no idea what they have been through or know what there life is like."

No disrespect toward those who paved the way for a more general acceptance of LGBTQ's but honestly, it is a damn dirty shame that many in our own community can still only focus on what they know and understand and can't just let people be themselves or come to terms with themselves when they are ready. I volunteer and work with LGBTQ's and straights in several places and see it in almost every place I go. My first impression is that most people are "civil," friendly and cordial but there will always be those who carry around such burdens within themselves that they fear anyone that is not like, or won't be like, them in each and every way. The same old deprecating remarks I would hear in bars in the 80's are full out on the street now and you even hear them from straight kids. It's like people have to put others down in order to feel good about themselves. It is a serious issue in all society, it's horrendous in politics, it is world-wide.

The only way you can fight this shit, is to not participate in it and do what I do telling people to not judge others.
 

demon_rider

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So....why exactly are you quoting me in that last reply? I'm not sure if your agreeing with me or trying to counter something. Lol.

One point though, I would agree that a part of our subculture does help to perpetuate the stereotype, but once again thats not something thats often viewed by the outside world. Only those of us who really go to gay bars or have gay friends would experience it. My issue isn't as great in regards to masculine gays vs feminine gays really. Personally I find the whole thing to just be fucking stupid. Attraction is one thing, but neither one is any "better" than the other. Both have their contributions to gay rights and the whole cause in one way or another. My issue is purely that because of the media, those without connections to the gay world don't see our subculture as a whole. They only see a fraction of it, and that fraction is what most "normal" guys would consider the most perverse so they think all gay guys are cut from this same cookie cutter mold, and don't even consider that there's more to it.

Some people will just never be reached by the stereotypically gay community. Thats where those of us who don't fit the stereotype come into play. The homophobic quarterback jock who you've been friends with since highschool, is going to be far more likely to listen to his best friend, who played with him on the team, when he comes out to him than he would the fashion major at college who he likely avoids and has no contact with. Thats just how it is.
 

TomCat84

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So....why exactly are you quoting me in that last reply? I'm not sure if your agreeing with me or trying to counter something. Lol.

One point though, I would agree that a part of our subculture does help to perpetuate the stereotype, but once again thats not something thats often viewed by the outside world. Only those of us who really go to gay bars or have gay friends would experience it. My issue isn't as great in regards to masculine gays vs feminine gays really. Personally I find the whole thing to just be fucking stupid. Attraction is one thing, but neither one is any "better" than the other. Both have their contributions to gay rights and the whole cause in one way or another. My issue is purely that because of the media, those without connections to the gay world don't see our subculture as a whole. They only see a fraction of it, and that fraction is what most "normal" guys would consider the most perverse so they think all gay guys are cut from this same cookie cutter mold, and don't even consider that there's more to it.

Some people will just never be reached by the stereotypically gay community. Thats where those of us who don't fit the stereotype come into play. The homophobic quarterback jock who you've been friends with since highschool, is going to be far more likely to listen to his best friend, who played with him on the team, when he comes out to him than he would the fashion major at college who he likely avoids and has no contact with. Thats just how it is.

The stereotypes are NOT....I repeat NOT the fault of the stereotypical persons- they are purely the fault of the people perpetuating them, ie the media (or others). The onus is on the bigoted and ignorant to change their own perceptions, not on the "queeny" "nelly" or otherwise stereotypically gay persons.
 

Bbucko

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Sounds like an act.

I've seen guys who turn it on and off, and it's not an attractive quality.

It's called calibrating oneself to one's environment and circumstances. And for the record, they (Lex and Bubba) are both extremely attractive men.
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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I don't see this as a problem at all.

And f_ck Harvey Milk. People are entitled to their privacy.

Sounds like an act.

I've seen guys who turn it on and off, and it's not an attractive quality.


Did you say "fuck Harvey Milk" ? Seriously what is wrong with you? You wouldn't have the choice to be private or not were it not for people like him. Grow up.

Are you saying you never adapt your manner based on the situation you find yourself in? If you don't you must have appalling social skills. :rolleyes:
 

B_RedDude

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I'm actually pretty well-bred, thank you.

F_ck Harvey Milk. I don't identify with him and he is certainly not someone I'd want to be identified with.

Oh, dear, I'm rejecting the sacred gay dogma.


Did you say "fuck Harvey Milk" ? Seriously what is wrong with you? You wouldn't have the choice to be private or not were it not for people like him. Grow up.

Are you saying you never adapt your manner based on the situation you find yourself in? If you don't you must have appalling social skills. :rolleyes:
 
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Bbucko

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What happened to being oneself?

Being the social creatures that they are, they were being quintessentially themselves by adapting to their environments. Are you really that much of a pedant?

Besides, as Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."
 

B_RedDude

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I don't need to ACT like some campy theatre queen in any social situation, no matter how everyone else is or is behaving.

Being the social creatures that they are, they were being quintessentially themselves by adapting to their environments. Are you really that much of a pedant?

Besides, as Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."
 

Bbucko

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I don't need to ACT like some campy theatre queen in any social situation, no matter how everyone else is or is behaving.

No one is suggesting otherwise; isn't being an individual having the right to chose one's comportment for oneself?
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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I'm actually pretty well-bred, thank you.

By which you mean crushingly gauche, right? I mean well bred people don't tend to call themselves well bred.

F_ck Harvey Milk. I don't owe a thing to the queen.

Oh, dear, I'm rejecting the sacred gay dogma.

"gay dogma", you do realise that Gay isn't a religion or a politics don't you? Harvey Milk contributed to humanity, not just to the campaign for equality for homosexuals. If you'd rather be glib and the adopt faux-controversial attitude of a maladjusted adolescent about someone who I suspect has done more for other people than you have then go ahead, it's only yourself you're embarrassing after all. :rolleyes: