A sad postmortem.

Discussion in 'Politics' started by mindseye, Nov 5, 2008.

  1. mindseye

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    Tonight's extraordinary victory for Barack Obama could have been a powerful blow to the forces of bigotry and discrimination in the US. Instead, it merely marks a shift in the epicenter of those forces.

    Obama is poised to win a majority of the popular vote, a majority of electoral votes, and a majority of states -- a result that would have seemed unthinkable two years ago. But ballot initiatives designed to place a "straights only" sign over the water fountain of civil rights passed without exception last night:

    • Arizona Proposition 102, defining marriage as between a man and a woman
    • Arkansas Measure 1, banning adoption by gay people
    • California Proposition 8, eliminating existing marriage rights within the state
    • Florida Amendment 2, banning same-sex marriage
    Both Obama and his running mate, Joe Biden, both spoke out against equal rights for lesbians and gay men. Obama boasted in an October 2007 candidates' forum that he supported a "strong version of civil unions" -- a Plessy vs. Ferguson approach to discrimination. While neither Obama nor Biden formally endorsed Proposition 8, or any of the other three anti-gay measures on ballots this year, neither of them actively sought to oppose these measures, preferring the safer route to the more courageous one.

    Last night's victory didn't end racism, of course. But to the extent that the news signaled a sea change in American attitudes towards race, it also signaled that Americans have found new targets for their oppression. Obama acknowledged in his victory speech last night that "we still have work to do"; may his understanding of what work is needed continue to evolve.
     
  2. Drifterwood

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    I am pretty sure that there is more homophobia than racism. My gut feel, or should that read hope, is that OB is an intelligent rational egalitarian and whilst he avoided the issues above, I would be surprised if he doesn't embrace equal rights with the mandate he now has.
     
  3. D_season 5

    D_season 5 Account Disabled

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    for guys that are claiming to be all so tolerant...u may want to re read how tolerant ur posts are....

    wrong is wrong...no matter how many people are doing it..
    right is right...no matter if no one is doing it...

    why on earth gays think they need some legal document to feel they are partnered or married...i will never get it...all i see from it is that if it passed...the only people who benefit from it all will be the various lawyers to un do what was done, property rights, palimony, and the list is endless...why gay couples think that a marriage to their partner would increase the odds of the union staying together more then a str8 union...(which is 50%) i find contradictory...an open relationship for example...would be the first grounds for a divorce and in CA...community property...all i see is negative on this...
    and u will never be able to convince me...an child with same sex parents is better off being reared by this couple than a child being reared by wife and husband...mother and father...in that order...

    i would like to think I'm wrong...but...my gut...doesn't tell me so...just like this election....the change that this scam artist is just pulled off...is going to just slap all of u who voted for him...long for the day of RECALL vote...

    for the record..im hoping the stock market is up HUGE today...so i can liquidate the rest of my holdings...while doing listening to my future dwindle before me last night, i was doing all my stock technical analysis...and i have found massive sell signals in most of my holdings...GOOGLE being one of them...and the OIL and DRILLING....will most likely go off the charts now...for this guy is not going to be drilling here in the USA...which only makes the oil companies wealthier...and he can tax them all he wants to, those same companies...just pass those increases onto the consumer...
     
  4. Drifterwood

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    I couldn't disagree with you more.

    Why is it a question of right or wrong? Is your own sexuality a question of right or wrong?

    I don't think so, it is simply a case of what is, is. It's a fact of life. Why can't people accept this?

    My opinion is that people believe they know what is natural whether they base this on a religion or not. But the clear fact is that they, and you are wrong, homosexuality is completely natural. The proof is all around you, get your head out of your ass and take a look.
     
  5. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    Then don't get married.

    Oh wait.

    You can't.

    We demand a choice. The fact of the matter is that the government gives benefits to spouses that simple domestic partners cannot get. The most important of these are inheritance and legal status as immediate family. Both of these might matter little to the average young person, but can mean the world to the seniors in the twilight of their lives. There are other benefits as well including taxation, particularly for stay-at-home spouses. For gays who are parenting couples, to not be recognized as a legal spouse could mean your child can be declared an orphan by the state if you are not the adoptive or biological parent. Could you imagine the state taking away YOUR child because your partner dies? Family courts give preference to step-parents in cases of orphaning. If you have no legal status with that child or your partner, then you're no better than a roommate.

    The question isn't if marriage is right for you, but that you have the choice to be married at all.

    Right now two states (soon to be just one) in the union confers the status of marriage yet we let 47 states deny the benefits of marriage to any couple married in those states despite the full-faith-and-credit clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. If you read the Supreme Court's decisions regarding miscegenation, you'll find that there is no way to legally defend this outright bigotry.

    This is a bittersweet day for gays all over the United States of America where they are denied equal rights in four more states than they were yesterday.
     
    #5 jason_els, Nov 5, 2008
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2008
  6. mindseye

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    1. Why do you refer to "gays" in the third person, using "they" instead of "we"?
    2. What makes you think that we seek the "legal document" for our feelings? We seek it for hospital visitation, medical benefits, power of attorney, transfer of property. We seek it to ensure that the people who care for our estates after we're gone are the people we choose, not necessarily the people we were born with.

      But more importantly, we seek it because we are equal partners in this democracy: we pay the same taxes, work the same jobs, suffer in the same economy, drive on the same roads, and obey the same laws, and we deserve that our relationships be afforded the same recognition and value that yours get.
     
  7. tripod

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    It wasn't the time... the country was not ready and the right to get married seemed to take a precedence over other issues in the gay community.

    Gay folk should have laid low during the Bush administration. The country was turning fascist before our eyes... what in the hell made the homosexuals think that they could gain the right to get married under an authoritarian regime?

    The gay community greatly underestimated the redneck population in America.

    There just hasn't been any real advancement of homosexuals in our culture... Broke Back Mountain, The L Word, The LOGO channel and Will and Grace reruns weren't enough to really change the minds of bigots.

    There is sooooooo much more work to do.

    This fucking makes me sad and angry... the gay folk didn't need this setback. :frown1:
     
  8. rob_just_rob

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    Awesome. So is the money going into gold coins, canned food & bullets, or just under the mattress? Enquiring minds want to know. :lmao:

    I guess this is the denial/sulking phase...
     
  9. naughty

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    Workin&#039; up a good pot of mad!
    So where does this leave those who just got married? This is bizarre to say the least...
     
  10. houtx48

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    maybe they're grandfathered in and can stay married.... would'nt that open a can of worms for the wingnutzzzzzzz?
     
  11. D_Fiona_Farvel

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    I'm crushed by the results.
    Expected so much more from my state. :(

    Last time this happened in California the marriages were invalidated.
     
  12. jumbo747jet

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    I am a heterosexual male so not personally affected by these talks but there's one thing which puzzles me and it's why a religious standpoint plays such a big deal in a country where the state and the church are separated.

    It would seem as the easiest thing for a government to introduce gender neutral marriage laws, making all people equal in the eyes of the law.
    It's the state (state, city or government) who issue marriage certificates, isn't it ?

    After that it's up to each and everyone where they decide to hold the actual ceremony. If one church will not do it, go to the next or to city hall for a civic service.

    Like I said to begin with, I'm probably not the best person to offer advice on this issue, so if you feel I am barking up the wrong tree, that's my excuse.
     
  13. D_dollar a week

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    Church and state aren't completely separated here. Directly separate, perhaps-- but indirectly? Not so much.
     
  14. kalipygian

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    How can a person be SOOOO clueless.
     
  15. kalipygian

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    There are also people many from other states who were recently married there, I know offhand three couples who did.

    I think the court has to throw the amendment out.

    I know a couple who were married in Multnoma County in Oregon, while it was briefly being done. The Anchorage Daily News refused to print their notice, when it was stopped there. They were later married again in Y.T.
     
    #15 kalipygian, Nov 5, 2008
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2008
  16. Drifterwood

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    It is an anomaly to an age of reason; an anachronism that needs to be broken. Really.
     
  17. OCDreamer69

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    Jumbo747jet - Think you have a very valid point. In the eyes of the government they would all be "civil unions" both straight and gay.

    No contest then. :cool:
     
  18. b.c.

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    yes, i agree. That and removing religiously inspired definitions of a what supposedly constitutes a "marriage" would be a start.
     
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