A Touchy Racial Subject - Can we discuss?

[Flashy]

Okay everyone, I was very encouraged by the thread i started about Obama and the very interesting insights it has offered with regards to how African American's feel about Obama's biracial heritage (and hopefully will continue to offer).

i mentioned to someone in that thread, that there was a topic I would very much like to discuss as it is utterly fascinating...but it will not be touched by the mainstream media because of the racial implications.

For all the controversies on LPSG and differing viewpoints, there seems to be a much more tolerant environment here, one where we seem a bit more able to discuss these issues...

This is an issue that is utterly fascinating, not to mention one that really can no longer be ignored because of all the evidence in front of us...

That being the performance of different races in athletics in terms of natural physical abilities.

How we as whites, blacks, asians, latinos of all continents and regions successes in athletics are primarily determined by each of our unique genetic heritage.

The "rub" of this topic is that the genetic/physical ability, has been used in the past in two negative ways:

1. Many sought to link it with intelligence, i.e. stating that blacks had lower intelligences etc. (the bell-curve controversy)...those idiots, as well as those on the other side who forbid even a scientific rational look at athletics as well as "Racial Scientists" using it to degrade other people's talents or intelligence are not welcome in this discussion. Being Jewish myself and being familiar with the Nazi Eugenecists I am well aware of just how thin the ice is on this topic.

If you seek to try to relate anything about the intelligence of different peoples, don't post it here. You have no place in this discussion. Same goes for those who would forbid discussion as "insensitive" of a fascinating and important topic about who we all are as creatures who have evolved in different places, and how those differences, in weather, climate, biology, necessity give each of our races a different advantage across a variety of athletic disciplines, from sprinting to jumping, to swimming to weightilfting.

2. Even the famous and brilliant african american sociologist HArry Edwards stated this "What really is being said in a kind of underhanded way," comments Harry Edwards of University of California/Berkeley, "is that blacks are closer to beasts and animals in terms of their genetic and physical and anatomical make up than they are to the rest of humanity. And that's where the indignity comes in."

I do not buy this...since we are all beasts and animals, and whites also have genetic traits which make them better at certain sports because of our physical makeup that could say we are closer to beasts and asians as well.


So what do you guys think? Do you think we can do this? Is this subject fascinating to anyone, on a natural/biological level?

If we can discuss things like adults amongst one other and everyone could, would it be easier for us to have larger discussions in society about our races? How do we fix things in other areas of race relations if we cannot talk about things honestly and openly? If blacks cannot tell whites about encountering racism, how are whites supposed to understand? If whites don't tell blacks their fears about the black community how can blacks assuage the white community? How do we move ahead if we cannot even talk, even if it is so hard or touchy?

Hopefully, the AA folks that joined me in the Obama thread, will contribute to this as wonderfully as they did there (along with others) I think, considering what has been said about Obama being someone who can relate to other races and diversity, he would be someone who would be perfectly comfortable saying..."okay guys, let's talk about this topic"...I saw a video of Obama on REAL SPORTS (I think that was it) where he discussed how much basketball meant to him in his life and playing it and how it helped his friendships...I think if he was just sitting around here on LPSG, it would be a topic he'd have the guts to say "let's take this on...let's talk about this...not as a racial issue...but a fascinating topic...maybe something will come of it"

Below is a link to a two part short excerpt article, written by Jon Entine, from his 2001 book
Taboo: Why Black Athletes Dominate Sport and Why We are Frightened to Talk About it

To decide if this is "okay" to talk about, I posted a brief snippet that I watched on Jesse Jackson's old show on CNN "Both Sides", where he interviewed Bryan Burwell, and Jon Entine, and this was the last part of their exchange that i found very encouraging.



JACKSON: So you think it (the book) contributes to racism in some way.
Bryan, do you think this contributes to racism or just the race dialogue?

BURWELL: I think it does a little of both. I don't question John's intentions, but I do think that this will provide fuel for those who want to walk on either side of the road.

I enjoy the fact that it has opened up a dialogue and allows us to knock down some of these idiotic theories. But the reality is that no matter what we say, those who want to believe in the genetic superiority and the intellectual inferiority are going to take this and run with it and say, See, I told you.

JACKSON: But, John, isn't that victory for you that what Bryan is saying, that he welcomes a dialogue and the debate and it's no longer taboo? Is that not your point?

ENTINE: Well that was my goal in this was, in fact, the reason that there has been a taboo on this issue is because people harbor racist notions. They're afraid to talk about it because it almost legitimizes the racist notion that blacks are intellectually inferior. History suggests that that's not accurate, that's not part of African- American sports history and it's definitely not part of science.
I hope some of you are interested to read the excerpt and maybe we could have a good discussion about it. :smile:

This snippet has an interestinng bit about Arthur Ashe (the book in its entirety is very interesting and i read it awhile ago)

The Story Behind the Amazing Success of Black Athletes,
Part 1
The Story Behind the Amazing Success of Black Athletes, by Jon Entine

Part 2
The Story Behind the Amazing Success of Black Athletes, by Jon Entine



and this fantastic article written by him for Blackathlete.net is updated and from 2006 and extremely interesting as well

Why Black Athletes Dominate Sports and Why We're Afraid To Talk About It



I look forward to your opinions :smile:

 

[B_jacknapier]

I heard that the slave trade weeded out weakness and promoted hardiness (especially in hot conditions with limited water) through overcrowded slave vessels.

I think we're very reluctant to discuss racial demographic differences in general, for fear of being seen as racist. Eventually this disinclination becomes habit and we simply don't feel any desire to think about such things.

edit: when I say "we", I mean "people", not "white people". of course that's my background so I know more about that subset of the population

 

[Flashy]

I heard that the slave trade weeded out weakness and promoted hardiness (especially in hot conditions with limited water) through overcrowded slave vessels.

that is precisely the kind of ignorant comment i was hoping would not surface in this thread.


please keep it to yourself.

 

[B_jacknapier]

What? What's ignorant about that theory?

By the way, responses like that are the precise reason why "we" (white people this time) do not often discuss these things.

I was not trying to be disrespectful.

 

[marleyisalegend]

it could be a number of things

1. money. someone who's never worried about the lights being caught off might be less encouraged to work hard at sports and attain success than someone who's constantly hearing their parents argue about bills. minorities make up a large percentage of the underclass so maybe there's differences in level of motivation. for instance playing for fun vs. playing so you can feed your family

okay, that was the only thing i can think of. i've never really noticed any physical advantages of one race over another. literally the only physical differences i notice are white people sometimes have smaller butts but i don't think that benefits anyone more than having a donkey-butt.

it's a stretch but i can sorta see the theory behind slavery basically "pumping us up". gotta be strong, sturdy, and durable to pick cotton all day.

 

[marleyisalegend]

that is precisely the kind of ignorant comment i was hoping would not surface in this thread.


please keep it to yourself.

i think you misinterpreted him. he's simply saying that being enslaved for hundreds of years literally conditioned many african americans. you CANT be weak in a cotton field. you can't be timid and it requires a LOT of endurance. again, it's a stretch but it's not (too) unimaginable.

 

[B_jacknapier]

a HUGE number of people died on the slave ships. it is not insignificant that the few to survive were the ones to reproduce

 

[Flashy]

What? What's ignorant about that theory?

By the way, responses like that are the precise reason why "we" (white people this time) do not often discuss these things.

I was not trying to be disrespectful.

I am, in fact white.

that is not a theory, surviving in the hold of a slave ship does not mean one's offspring will become a great athlete.

this is a theory about natural genetics and body types.

 

[Flashy]

i think you misinterpreted him. he's simply saying that being enslaved for hundreds of years literally conditioned many african americans. you CANT be weak in a cotton field. you can't be timid and it requires a LOT of endurance. again, it's a stretch but it's not (too) unimaginable.

I understand that, but west africans and east africans that were not slaves did not work in cotton fields.

What about those who were not enslaved for hundreds of years? What about a slave who was brought to the USA in 1860?

I am simply saying, that surviving a slave ship was not in fact always attributable to athletic condition...disease can strike down a healthy athletic male as easy as it can an unhealthy person.

Let's not forget, that while indeed, picking cotton is backbreaking labor, many whites, asians, and other poor cultures have worked fields (rice paddies, sharecropping, mining etc.) for milleniums as well,

 

[B_jacknapier]

flashy-
Whether you're white or black, my comment still applies. White people feel far more vulnerable to charges of racial ignorance, and we get them from all sides. Oftentimes from ignorant white liberals.

Obviously surviving in adverse conditions does not mean that your offspring will be a great athlete. How about performance in dehydration conditions? Think it would have an impact on that? How about overall physical fortitude?


Peace, I'm out. Guess I'm not allowed to discuss.

 

[marleyisalegend]

What about those who were not enslaved for hundreds of years? What about a slave who was brought to the USA in 1860?

you asked us to discuss this topic and continually shoot down sound ideas. is there something you wanted to hear that you're not hearing cuz everything i've read pertains to your topic and is relevant and not entirely ludicrous. this discussion won't go well if you shoot down every idea. everything napier said made sense, especially the comments about endurance, dehydration, etc..

I am simply saying, that surviving a slave ship was not in fact always attributable to athletic condition...disease can strike down a healthy athletic male as easy as it can an unhealthy person.

it doesn't sort of entail the survival of the fittest, literally and figuratively.
i'm not saying riding around on a big ship turned us into michael jordan, but it's possibly a factor in durability of some people. two survivors get together and produce survivor offspring mutiplied by entire fleets of ships of survivors, it's certainly worth considering.

Let's not forget, that while indeed, picking cotton is backbreaking labor, many whites, asians, and other poor cultures have worked fields (rice paddies, sharecropping, mining etc

that doesn't mean it isn't a contributor.

 

[Flashy]

flashy-
Whether you're white or black, my comment still applies. White people feel far more vulnerable to charges of racial ignorance, and we get them from all sides. Oftentimes from ignorant white liberals.

I understand that....which is why i wanted to keep potentially incendiary comments out of this so as not to detract from the discussion of MODERN times, not historical injustices. So the discussion would not become racial...you made your statement without having read the articles, and if you had read the articles, the slave topic has no relevance...this is different and if you cannot read the articles, which describe a very different view then the "slave ship" theory, than you are going off-topic.


Obviously surviving in adverse conditions does not mean that your offspring will be a great athlete. How about performance in dehydration conditions?

that has nothing to do with fast-twitch fibers in the muslces, thicker things, thinner calves and a host of other natural biological factors.

Think it would have an impact on that? How about overall physical fortitude?

Being starved to death would actually waste away your muscles and damage them, not make them better.

Peace, I'm out. Guess I'm not allowed to discuss.

You are more than allowed to discuss, but you did not read the articles as such, and went right off into the area i was hoping not to go into which is an entirely different topic. I

understand you did not "mean it" badly...but shouldn't you read the articles about the Topic that has been posted asking to discuss that article?

 

[Flashy]

What about those who were not enslaved for hundreds of years? What about a slave who was brought to the USA in 1860?

you asked us to discuss this topic and continually shoot down sound ideas. is there something you wanted to hear that you're not hearing cuz everything i've read pertains to your topic and is relevant and not entirely ludicrous. this discussion won't go well if you shoot down every idea. everything napier said made sense, especially the comments about endurance, dehydration, etc..

I am simply saying, that surviving a slave ship was not in fact always attributable to athletic condition...disease can strike down a healthy athletic male as easy as it can an unhealthy person.

it doesn't sort of entail the survival of the fittest, literally and figuratively.
i'm not saying riding around on a big ship turned us into michael jordan, but it's possibly a factor in durability of some people. two survivors get together and produce survivor offspring mutiplied by entire fleets of ships of survivors, it's certainly worth considering.

Let's not forget, that while indeed, picking cotton is backbreaking labor, many whites, asians, and other poor cultures have worked fields (rice paddies, sharecropping, mining etc

that doesn't mean it isn't a contributor.

For god's sake, that is not what i am saying at all. I did not want him to contribute something that had no relevance to the topic....which is the ARTICLES...if you or he had read the articles, you would find that coming over on slave ships is not a factor in determining the genetic codes.

I am not "shooting down sound ideas". They are not sound, becasue they are unrelated to the ARTICLES, which if you had read, you'd see are VERY different. This thread is about those articles, and their absolute scientific facts and their relation to performance, not the theories of if slave ships contributed to those factors...because white people's success in weightlifting, chinese peoples succuess at gymnastics, white swimmers, all have certain other factors that make them superior to blacks...anbd whites and asians were not on slaveships.

please read the articles.

i hope you will contribute, but until you read the articles, you are talking about something totally unrelated...

you are talking about speculation vs. scientific fact.

 

[marleyisalegend]

For god's sake, that is not what i am saying at all. I did not want him to contribute something that had no relevance to the topic....which is the ARTICLES...if you or he had read the articles, you would find that coming over on slave ships is not a factor in determining the genetic codes.

genetic codes no, but it's damn near a real live version of "survival of the fittest". where only the fittest survive, you have the fittest reproducing.
survival of the fittest is pretty much scientific in that it's almost an equation.

because white people's success in weightlifting, chinese peoples succuess at gymnastics, white swimmers, all have certain other factors that make them superior to blacks...anbd whites and asians were not on slaveships.

maybe these are personal preferences. if maybe one race is more likely to prefer a sport over another. or maybe it's random. if you take a bag of skittles and throw them into a few bowls, some bowls will naturally contain more of a certain color than others

 

[Flashy]

For god's sake, that is not what i am saying at all. I did not want him to contribute something that had no relevance to the topic....which is the ARTICLES...if you or he had read the articles, you would find that coming over on slave ships is not a factor in determining the genetic codes.

genetic codes no, but it's damn near a real live version of "survival of the fittest". where only the fittest survive, you have the fittest reproducing.
survival of the fittest is pretty much scientific in that it's almost an equation.

because white people's success in weightlifting, chinese peoples succuess at gymnastics, white swimmers, all have certain other factors that make them superior to blacks...anbd whites and asians were not on slaveships.

maybe these are personal preferences. if maybe one race is more likely to prefer a sport over another. or maybe it's random. if you take a bag of skittles and throw them into a few bowls, some bowls will naturally contain more of a certain color than others

1. Survival of the Fittest, on a boat ride, does not determine the length of your foot, in relation to your calf, and then your quad, same as your hand being as long as your forearm which is as long as your upper arm...these are all traits that are found much more often in AA's...your genetic code does not change on a slave ship.

It also does not change the fact that WestAA's typcially have lesser body fat, more fast twitch muscle fibers, thinner calves, thicker thighs and different metbolism.

Plenty of people survived the slaveships who weren't always the strongest. plenty of AA's who have not been the strongest or fittest have survived and bred....what about northern AA's who were not slaves? Who did not work in fields?

What about west africans who grow up in Europe, like the Senegalese or the Ivory Coasters who then move to France to play soccer or run track? They were not slaves.

"Survival of the fittest" is not an equation. You are talking about Natural Selection in animal breeding and development...

Any human being can choose to reproduce regardless of how fit he or she is...animals "survival of the fittest" is predicated on breeding rights and survival in the jungle...a totally different thing.



2. Marley, please read the articles or don't contribute...this is not a question of personal preference...if you had read the article, you would learn that whites have thicker mesomorphic upper bodies, shorter arms and legs, which contributes to lifting with the upper body...

You would have also garnered that West Africans typically have only a 45 second threshold for anaerobic activity....which shows why they are fantastic sprinters, but not good distance runners...the reason for this is the chest cavity...whites and east africans have chest cavities that are designed for distance, i.e aerobic activity, which is why they dominate at distances.

Jumping leaping and sprinting are more conducive to some sports, lifting, throwing, are more for others, and flexibility and sphere of gravity for others, and EACH of this has different varieties in various races that contribute to the differences.

 

[marleyisalegend]

2. Marley, please read the articles or don't contribute...this is not a question of personal preference...if you had read the article, you would learn that whites have thicker mesomorphic upper bodies, shorter arms and legs, which contributes to lifting with the upper body...

now i understand, you want us to explain genetics to you, and why different races tend to have different builds. i'm no genius but i think einstein would have a hard time explaining this, or maybe it's simple. different people are built differently. these are possibly random differences that each race has used to their advantage.

what next, you want me to explain why the sun is orange?? though i'm sure that with a few google searches that's FAAR more easy to understand than what you're asking.

i apologize for my responses that didn't correlate to that article, i apologize for responding at all cuz what you're asking is in a field that people study their whole lives and still can't do more than guess at.

 

[Flashy]

2. Marley, please read the articles or don't contribute...this is not a question of personal preference...if you had read the article, you would learn that whites have thicker mesomorphic upper bodies, shorter arms and legs, which contributes to lifting with the upper body...

now i understand, you want us to explain genetics to you, and why different races tend to have different builds. i'm no genius but i think einstein would have a hard time explaining this, or maybe it's simple. different people are built differently. these are possibly random differences that each race has used to their advantage.

what next, you want me to explain why the sun is orange?? though i'm sure that with a few google searches that's FAAR more easy to understand than what you're asking.

i apologize for my responses that didn't correlate to that article, i apologize for responding at all cuz what you're asking is in a field that people study their whole lives and still can't do more than guess at.

1. I don't want you to explain it to me...I'd like you to read something very very interesting, helping you learn something you may indeed have never known, so that we can have a conversation about it...and relate that to some of our favorite athletes, or wonder what would happend with someone who was biracial? Where would they excel? Would that makeup perhaps dominate onespecific sport? What would change? Why do Samoans/polynesians have such success at football and rugby?

It is about discussing fascinating questions, that you co9uld have easily read by now, learned something incredibly interesting and be right back here discussing something you never knew before.

That is what i am saying to you. NOthing more. You could have read these articles by now, and really found it incredibly fascinating...like when they brought some Swedish traack runners to South Africa and hooked them and some Kenyan kids up to testing machines...incredibly interesting things...

so it is your choice.

I am not asking you to teach me genetics...I am not asking you to become a genetecist...

I just thought it was an incredibly interesting book, that i had read, that we could all discuss...but if you can't read just the excerpt, we cannot discuss it can we?

I will not pressure you to read it...but you just might learn something interesting.

it is totally up to you.

 

[marleyisalegend]

or wonder what would happend with someone who was biracial?

that question is ONLY relevant if genetics have a specific way of being distributed, otherwise the countless variables make it almost impossible to make any accurate statements.

Where would they excel?
whatever sport best suits them or they enjoy the most

Would that makeup perhaps dominate onespecific sport?
possibly

What would change?
i dunno

Why do Samoans/polynesians have such success at football and rugby?
they're either good at it or they're designed with an advantage

It is about discussing fascinating questions, that you co9uld have easily read by now, learned something incredibly interesting and be right back here discussing something you never knew before.

i'm aware of differences of physical composition in regards to race. i don't know the bone-body mass ratio but i know some races have advantages over others that can be applied to sports.

I just thought it was an incredibly interesting book, that i had read, that we could all discuss...but if you can't read just the excerpt, we cannot discuss it can we?

we could, just not the way you want it to be discussed. from what i've gathered, the article pretty must just goes into detail about something i'm already aware of.

I will not pressure you to read it...but you just might learn something interesting.

okay, you twisted my arm, i'll read it. brb

 

[Principessa]

So what do you guys think? Do you think we can do this? Is this subject fascinating to anyone, on a natural/biological level?

I look forward to your opinions :smile:

No, it does not fascinate or even interest me. As for this topic being discussed intelligently, you've been here long enough to know better. I bet it won't be 12 hours before this descends into ugly, bigoted remarks and race baiting.

FWIW: I don't have a problem with you being white or Jewish and asking these questions. I just think you are being ridicuosly naive to think that this site is the appropriate forum for this discussion.

that is precisely the kind of ignorant comment i was hoping would not surface in this thread. please keep it to yourself.

I hate to say it, but I told you so. :tongue:

 

[Flashy]

okay, you twisted my arm, i'll read it. brb

LOL

too late...i am going to bed...but i will enjoy discussing it with you tomorrow.
:smile:
you can just read the article first, then if you like the article, read the excerpts

nighty