A Touchy Racial Subject - Can we discuss?

[marleyisalegend]

(and no, it wasn't cocobutter :biggrin1: ), and it's not

ROFLMAO, i LOVE the smell of that stuff but it's almost unreal how quickly it dries your skin up.

 

[B_Monster]

:redface:

Does this mean that I finally get a mod on my friend list?

Great post Bbucko, as usual. Thanks

 

[B_superlarge]

they've yet to find real genetic evidence for the differences we call "race"

Racial Groupings Match Genetic Profiles, Stanford Study Finds

Why am I bothering with posting studies. Shouldn't I just post my opinion and say whatever? Might as well. That's the norm.

 

[naughty]

:redface:

Does this mean that I finally get a mod on my friend list?

Does this mean you finally decided to ask?:biggrin1:

 

[mista geechee]

Okay everyone, I was very encouraged by the thread i started about Obama and the very interesting insights it has offered with regards to how African American's feel about Obama's biracial heritage (and hopefully will continue to offer).

i mentioned to someone in that thread, that there was a topic I would very much like to discuss as it is utterly fascinating...but it will not be touched by the mainstream media because of the racial implications.

For all the controversies on LPSG and differing viewpoints, there seems to be a much more tolerant environment here, one where we seem a bit more able to discuss these issues...

This is an issue that is utterly fascinating, not to mention one that really can no longer be ignored because of all the evidence in front of us...

That being the performance of different races in athletics in terms of natural physical abilities.

How we as whites, blacks, asians, latinos of all continents and regions successes in athletics are primarily determined by each of our unique genetic heritage.

The "rub" of this topic is that the genetic/physical ability, has been used in the past in two negative ways:

1. Many sought to link it with intelligence, i.e. stating that blacks had lower intelligences etc. (the bell-curve controversy)...those idiots, as well as those on the other side who forbid even a scientific rational look at athletics as well as "Racial Scientists" using it to degrade other people's talents or intelligence are not welcome in this discussion. Being Jewish myself and being familiar with the Nazi Eugenecists I am well aware of just how thin the ice is on this topic.

If you seek to try to relate anything about the intelligence of different peoples, don't post it here. You have no place in this discussion. Same goes for those who would forbid discussion as "insensitive" of a fascinating and important topic about who we all are as creatures who have evolved in different places, and how those differences, in weather, climate, biology, necessity give each of our races a different advantage across a variety of athletic disciplines, from sprinting to jumping, to swimming to weightilfting.

2. Even the famous and brilliant african american sociologist HArry Edwards stated this "What really is being said in a kind of underhanded way," comments Harry Edwards of University of California/Berkeley, "is that blacks are closer to beasts and animals in terms of their genetic and physical and anatomical make up than they are to the rest of humanity. And that's where the indignity comes in."

I do not buy this...since we are all beasts and animals, and whites also have genetic traits which make them better at certain sports because of our physical makeup that could say we are closer to beasts and asians as well.


So what do you guys think? Do you think we can do this? Is this subject fascinating to anyone, on a natural/biological level?

If we can discuss things like adults amongst one other and everyone could, would it be easier for us to have larger discussions in society about our races? How do we fix things in other areas of race relations if we cannot talk about things honestly and openly? If blacks cannot tell whites about encountering racism, how are whites supposed to understand? If whites don't tell blacks their fears about the black community how can blacks assuage the white community? How do we move ahead if we cannot even talk, even if it is so hard or touchy?

Hopefully, the AA folks that joined me in the Obama thread, will contribute to this as wonderfully as they did there (along with others) I think, considering what has been said about Obama being someone who can relate to other races and diversity, he would be someone who would be perfectly comfortable saying..."okay guys, let's talk about this topic"...I saw a video of Obama on REAL SPORTS (I think that was it) where he discussed how much basketball meant to him in his life and playing it and how it helped his friendships...I think if he was just sitting around here on LPSG, it would be a topic he'd have the guts to say "let's take this on...let's talk about this...not as a racial issue...but a fascinating topic...maybe something will come of it"

Below is a link to a two part short excerpt article, written by Jon Entine, from his 2001 book
Taboo: Why Black Athletes Dominate Sport and Why We are Frightened to Talk About it

To decide if this is "okay" to talk about, I posted a brief snippet that I watched on Jesse Jackson's old show on CNN "Both Sides", where he interviewed Bryan Burwell, and Jon Entine, and this was the last part of their exchange that i found very encouraging.



JACKSON: So you think it (the book) contributes to racism in some way.
Bryan, do you think this contributes to racism or just the race dialogue?

BURWELL: I think it does a little of both. I don't question John's intentions, but I do think that this will provide fuel for those who want to walk on either side of the road.

I enjoy the fact that it has opened up a dialogue and allows us to knock down some of these idiotic theories. But the reality is that no matter what we say, those who want to believe in the genetic superiority and the intellectual inferiority are going to take this and run with it and say, See, I told you.

JACKSON: But, John, isn't that victory for you that what Bryan is saying, that he welcomes a dialogue and the debate and it's no longer taboo? Is that not your point?

ENTINE: Well that was my goal in this was, in fact, the reason that there has been a taboo on this issue is because people harbor racist notions. They're afraid to talk about it because it almost legitimizes the racist notion that blacks are intellectually inferior. History suggests that that's not accurate, that's not part of African- American sports history and it's definitely not part of science.
I hope some of you are interested to read the excerpt and maybe we could have a good discussion about it. :smile:

This snippet has an interestinng bit about Arthur Ashe (the book in its entirety is very interesting and i read it awhile ago)

The Story Behind the Amazing Success of Black Athletes,
Part 1
The Story Behind the Amazing Success of Black Athletes, by Jon Entine

Part 2
The Story Behind the Amazing Success of Black Athletes, by Jon Entine



and this fantastic article written by him for Blackathlete.net is updated and from 2006 and extremely interesting as well

Why Black Athletes Dominate Sports and Why We're Afraid To Talk About It



I look forward to your opinions :smile:

hell i'm not offended at all. i think too many of my brothers and sisters form opinions around sharpton, farrakahn , and jackson .

as to the lower intelligence theory , it is outrageous but then again we had the theories of spontaneous generation and geocentricity.

but we should cool this down cuz it does seem to be turning into a flame war between marley and..everyone else.

i have read studies that claim that african american domination of sports is simply a myth while others claim that it's attributed to fast twitch muscle fiber and physical traits developed from our ancestors.

in high school i played football , baseball, and basketball. on the basketball team i was starting point guard (cuz i'm "only" 6'3 which is short by basketball standards) and there were 11 people on the team, one was white . now i really dont wanna sound stereotypical here but among all the blacks that i know , there is a genuine love of basketball. basketball is truly a staple in the black community.

when i played football i was a wide receiver. again i noticed that the only white players on the team were the quarterback and the offensive linemen. but the runningbacks, receivers (including tight ends) ,
cornerbacks and safeties were all black.

but when i played baseball i was the only black person on the team and i played shortstop . and it made me think even harder when the coach asked me to focus on base running more that power hitting. he asked me because i ran fast and was good at stealing bases.

what i'm getting at is that the ideas of blacks being more phsically talented for speed positions and whites are the more mentally sound athletes and should play the leader/thinking positions (pitcher/quarterback) is unconsciously fed . along with stereotypes that black athletes cant perform under pressure. but my favorite basketball players of all time proved that wrong, there names were michael jordan, magic johnson, and isiah thomas . and many white players have also shattered stereotypes like john riggins, white runningback and HOF'er (hall of fame). or fred belitnikoff ,white wide receiver and also a HOF'er. and how about larry bird , john stockton, steve nash, rick barry, kevin mchale, bob cousy. alotta people dont even realize that basketball was invented by a white man. his name was james naismith. and i dont even have to mention hank aaron , satchel paige,bob gibson , jackie robinson, and willie mays , or tiger , venus and serena and even james blake. but my favorite was michael jordan. he was a black man who just happened to be the hero of a white society.

i agree with you about race talks. but there's alot of people who get offended by everything. if we took the time to talk to each other we would realize that we are more alike .

there was a 2 part special on espn called black magic and it was about the segregation and intergration of basketball and the politics at the time. i suggest some of you watch it. it's very interesting.

 

[marleyisalegend]

^well-said and damn near the only response that discusses sports lol. i agree entirely that some aspects of race/sport are simply an extention of negative stereotypes about blacks. sure we're faster but we're supposedly dumber and do the physical work while the brilliant white men write the well-thought out plays and we "yes masta" out onto the field and simply do what we're told.

it's one thing to imply that we may be built differently, (though i'd have to see hard evidence to believe it) but one poster in particular outright said we're not good at thinking/analyzing/anything intelligent and of course that'll lead some to believe that a good black athlete is a result of good physical condition with a lack of mental prowess. i suspected it wouldn't be many pages before someone stated such stupid, disrespectful, insensitive remarks about black people.

 

[Principessa]

I'm not trying to be funny, but many black people do not like cold weather. I think that is why you rarely see us in hockey, figure skating, bob sledding etc. The other reason is purely economic hockey and figure skating are very expensive to participate in. You also don't see a lot of quality ice rinks in poor urban or rural areas.

If I were a welfare mom and I knew my son wasn't academically gifted you can bet your sweet bippy I'd be putting a football, basketball, or baseball in his hands and encourage him along those lines. Figure skaters don't make half what a baseball player does.

 

[mista geechee]

I'm not trying to be funny, but many black people do not like cold weather. I think that is why you rarely see us in hockey, figure skating, bob sledding etc. The other reason is purely economic hockey and figure skating are very expensive to participate in. You also don't see a lot of quality ice rinks in poor urban or rural areas.

If I were a welfare mom and I knew my son wasn't academically gifted you can bet your sweet bippy I'd be putting a football, basketball, or baseball in his hands and encourage him along those lines. Figure skaters don't make half what a baseball player does.

i gotta agree about the cold thing. most of teh black peopl ei know hate the cold. and yea, baseball players get obsene amounts of money. its because baseball has no salary cap, so instead if 9 million a year you can get 30 million a year

 

[HyperHulk]

So what do you guys think? Do you think we can do this? Is this subject fascinating to anyone, on a natural/biological level?

Flashy--I thought you were going to stay away from the controversial discussions and stick to porn?:tongue: jk

I'm not quite sure what you're expecting from this discussion on this site. Few of us would be experts in this area to have any real meaningful discussion beyond our own personal experiences and perceptions. As you stated, this issue isn't discussed much, so the information available to give an informed opinion is limited.

I read the articles you posted and there was little to argue with. The writer seemed to express facts, some ethnicities have seemed to have adapted to their environments in ways that provide slight innate advantages in some sports.

Nevertheless, the writer states that the slight advantages are not enough to guarantee success in that sport. And that makes sense. If you have a person who is 7 feet tall, that person may be a better basketball player than someone who is 4 feet tall. There is a slight genetic advantage. However, if the 4 feet tall person practices all the time and works on their 3 point shot, and the 7 footer is uncoordinated, the 4 footer might be the better player.

Given the 3 articles you posted and their straight forward presentations of facts, I'm not sure what more "we" could add to the discussion.

The debate is generally less around whether their certain genetic advantages, but more around how those advantages came to be (some claim that people are bred to be physically superior) or whether innate physical superiority in some areas means that certain people should be encouraged to pursue physical work as opposed to intellectual work.

The other issue is the fallacies related to stereotyping. That because some people from some areas or ethnicities excel at some sports, than all the people from those groups will excel.

I'm not sure what particular aspect of this issue you are interested in discussing. Do I find the discussion fascinating on a biological/natural level? Not really. As an African-American, I have seen how these discussions devolve into silly stereotypes and personal stories trotted as facts that represent everyone else's story. I also don't see the value of the discussion. To me it's no different than saying that someone born into money has a slight advantage in life over someone who is born into poverty, but that slight advantage does not guarantee a longer, better, happier life or a smarter, kinder, more-well adjusted person. Everyone is genetically different from everyone else, whether within their ethnicity or to those outside their ethnicity--success comes from a combination of other factors and their synergy all working together.

IMHO

--HH

 

[marleyisalegend]

^well-said. i glanced at the article and it seemed to the point and literally the article itself ended this discussion. i can't debate it cuz i've never done this kind of research, i can't back it up, it sounds plausible but what is there to add? of course, possibly unbeknownst to you, this was going to lead to rude, racist remarks and, completely UNsurprising to me, it did before the fifth page. race will NEVER be discussed on lpsg without

1)passionate reponses

2)rude, racist remarks and stereotypes

 

[Flashy]

Flashy--I thought you were going to stay away from the controversial discussions and stick to porn?:tongue: jk
--HH

so did I :smile:

as Michael Corleone said...

"Just when i thought i was out...they pulled me back in"

 

[Flashy]

I'm not quite sure what you're expecting from this discussion on this site. Few of us would be experts in this area to have any real meaningful discussion beyond our own personal experiences and perceptions. As you stated, this issue isn't discussed much, so the information available to give an informed opinion is limited.


well, acutally this is what i was hoping for...obviously not "expert discussion" but basically just what people thought of those articles and the interesting questions they raise about physical development/athletics etc.

I read the articles you posted and there was little to argue with. The writer seemed to express facts, some ethnicities have seemed to have adapted to their environments in ways that provide slight innate advantages in some sports.

Nevertheless, the writer states that the slight advantages are not enough to guarantee success in that sport. And that makes sense. If you have a person who is 7 feet tall, that person may be a better basketball player than someone who is 4 feet tall. There is a slight genetic advantage. However, if the 4 feet tall person practices all the time and works on their 3 point shot, and the 7 footer is uncoordinated, the 4 footer might be the better player.

Exactly...i found that an encouraging POV to get beyond the "racial" aspect...that although hard work and intensity are the major ingredients of athletic success, all people, white or black or asian, simply cannot be the "best" athlete without some genetic predisposition.


Given the 3 articles you posted and their straight forward presentations of facts, I'm not sure what more "we" could add to the discussion.

Perhaps...i just thought the articles were interesting and may have engendered the discussion a bit, since it is not something regularly discussed without a bit of trepidation.

The debate is generally less around whether their certain genetic advantages, but more around how those advantages came to be (some claim that people are bred to be physically superior) or whether innate physical superiority in some areas means that certain people should be encouraged to pursue physical work as opposed to intellectual work.

The other issue is the fallacies related to stereotyping. That because some people from some areas or ethnicities excel at some sports, than all the people from those groups will excel.

Obviously. Nobody would encourage Barry White or Chris Farley to be athletes no matter their origins.

I'm not sure what particular aspect of this issue you are interested in discussing. Do I find the discussion fascinating on a biological/natural level? Not really. As an African-American, I have seen how these discussions devolve into silly stereotypes and personal stories trotted as facts that represent everyone else's story.

well, that was my point for my disclaimers in the original post, about the nonsense of people attempting to link it to intelligence somehow or other disparaging "studies" that"racial scientists" desperately try to advance for supremacist purposes.


I also don't see the value of the discussion. To me it's no different than saying that someone born into money has a slight advantage in life over someone who is born into poverty, but that slight advantage does not guarantee a longer, better, happier life or a smarter, kinder, more-well adjusted person. Everyone is genetically different from everyone else, whether within their ethnicity or to those outside their ethnicity--success comes from a combination of other factors and their synergy all working together.

IMHO

--HH

I just thought that biological differences and their relation to athletic success is fascinating, be it thinner calves making better sprinters, shorter arms making better power lifters, etc. etc.

i just think it is fascinating science, that's all.

 

[Flashy]

UNsurprising to me, it did before the fifth page. race will NEVER be discussed on lpsg without

1)passionate reponses

2)rude, racist remarks and stereotypes

true...perhaps I was naive...but i did try my best to preface it by saying i didn't believe those racist remarks and stereotypes, and they would not be acceptable in this thread or as rational discourse.

I guess i should have kknown better, but sometimes, you hope for the best.

it would not be the first time a thread did not work out as intended on LPSG
:redface:

 

[Flashy]

hell i'm not offended at all. i think too many of my brothers and sisters form opinions around sharpton, farrakahn , and jackson .

as to the lower intelligence theory , it is outrageous but then again we had the theories of spontaneous generation and geocentricity.

but we should cool this down cuz it does seem to be turning into a flame war between marley and..everyone else.

i have read studies that claim that african american domination of sports is simply a myth while others claim that it's attributed to fast twitch muscle fiber and physical traits developed from our ancestors.

in high school i played football , baseball, and basketball. on the basketball team i was starting point guard (cuz i'm "only" 6'3 which is short by basketball standards) and there were 11 people on the team, one was white . now i really dont wanna sound stereotypical here but among all the blacks that i know , there is a genuine love of basketball. basketball is truly a staple in the black community.

when i played football i was a wide receiver. again i noticed that the only white players on the team were the quarterback and the offensive linemen. but the runningbacks, receivers (including tight ends) ,
cornerbacks and safeties were all black.

but when i played baseball i was the only black person on the team and i played shortstop . and it made me think even harder when the coach asked me to focus on base running more that power hitting. he asked me because i ran fast and was good at stealing bases.

what i'm getting at is that the ideas of blacks being more phsically talented for speed positions and whites are the more mentally sound athletes and should play the leader/thinking positions (pitcher/quarterback) is unconsciously fed . along with stereotypes that black athletes cant perform under pressure. but my favorite basketball players of all time proved that wrong, there names were michael jordan, magic johnson, and isiah thomas . and many white players have also shattered stereotypes like john riggins, white runningback and HOF'er (hall of fame). or fred belitnikoff ,white wide receiver and also a HOF'er. and how about larry bird , john stockton, steve nash, rick barry, kevin mchale, bob cousy. alotta people dont even realize that basketball was invented by a white man. his name was james naismith. and i dont even have to mention hank aaron , satchel paige,bob gibson , jackie robinson, and willie mays , or tiger , venus and serena and even james blake. but my favorite was michael jordan. he was a black man who just happened to be the hero of a white society.

i agree with you about race talks. but there's alot of people who get offended by everything. if we took the time to talk to each other we would realize that we are more alike .

there was a 2 part special on espn called black magic and it was about the segregation and intergration of basketball and the politics at the time. i suggest some of you watch it. it's very interesting.

thank you for this great post Geeche.

your insight as an athlete is greatly appreciated and knowledge of the actual athletic portions and a discussion of those who either confirm the stereotypes or shatter the myth (like Riggins, or Doug Williams, or Jason Sehorn, or Steve Nash) is exactly what i was hoping for in starting this thread. :smile:

kudos to you. :biggrin1:

 

[Flashy]

I'm not sure how much of your quote from Marley you think was him, and how much was me. I did notice that you seem to have addressed all of your comments to him. He was agreeing with what I said, but the bold-in-black comments were/are mine.

Your responses carry a heavy whiff of Angry White Guy, and I'm sure that there's been much in your life to make you feel justified taking that stance.

I grew up in a working-class, white town 15 miles south of Boston. When I say "white", I mean that, until 10th grade, I had no classmates in the entire school who weren't white. There were three AAs in my graduating class (of over 500 in 1978) and one Latino. People think of Boston-area residents as Frasier Crain, but of my neighbors were much more Archie Bunker.

Well over 60% of my classmates came from households that today would be labeled "disadvantaged", if not downright dysfunctional: alcoholic, abusive parents disinclined to foster any interest in academia. I know mine were. The percentage of those who went on to college after graduating was abysmally low and the drop-out rate was really high.

I paid little attention to school sports because, as I've said earlier, they never interested me. But I can say that in my Junior year the school play was almost canceled because the budget didn't allow for cheerleader uniforms and the play. Our faculty adviser/director forewent whatever pittance they'd have paid her, and we had several bake sales to raise the required funds, all without administration involvement or support.

Despite being the pride of the school, none of the sports teams actually won much, or at least very often. Maybe they didn't try enough, or maybe they were out-matched by teams in the (equally white) district. Despite having a terrible record, "pep rallies" and the like were still held every year, interrupting classes. To suggest that the student's time might be better spent actually learning things seemed pretty much absurd.

I left Weymouth immediately after my last day of school (going back to attend commencement for my parents) and never looked back. But life plays funny games sometimes, and in 1995, 17 years after leaving Weymouth, I met someone who grew up there, less than two miles from where I did, in fact. He was younger enough than I so that I'd never actually met him (though I do remember his sister, who was my age). He'd stayed there until he was 28 before moving to Cape Cod, but kept so many friends from Weymouth that, one we started seriously dating, I was quickly reacquainted with many I hadn't seen in years.

Their jobs (when they had jobs) were totally dead-end, mindless sorts of things, or honest trade jobs that were not always steady. Many had been in and out of jail (or prison). Most still smoked weed every day, which did little to help their motivation to better their lives.

But to the last, whether male or female, I'd hear stories about how their lives had been wrecked by Affirmative Action or other types of minority preferential situations. It was never that they were overweight, unmotivated slobs: it was the "f*cking n*ggers" who'd robbed them of their chance in life.

I'm not drawing any undue comparisons here. I don't know you personally and don't pay much attention to your posts: there's always too much to read here at LPSG. What I am saying is that, contrary to popular myth, the playing field in the US has never been level. But opportunities await those who have the creativity and curiosity to find them.

I never went to college. In my first years of independence, I was a security guard, a dishwasher, a short-order cook and a barback at a disco (and I only got the last job because the manager found me attractive), and stocking shelves at a liquor store.

Finding retail, even on that level, the most appealing, I went to work at a department store. Two year's experience there got me in a menswear boutique. Two years there got me a shot selling furniture with a company that "took a risk" on me.

Within five years of working (very very hard) for that furniture company, I went from "new recruit with no training or experience" to managing their flagship store on Madison Ave in NYC. Because I was never anything but unapologetically gay, I suffered from extreme homophobia (denied promotions due me because I was "too far out of the mainstream": code for too gay) but also benefited because other people within the organization presumed that being gay meant that I had a "flair" for design.

But I do have to say that if I'd been a black kid with the same personality, advantages and shortcomings, I sincerely doubt that I'd have found someone who's "take a risk" on me.

as usual, bucko, you always have something wonderful, interesting and impartial to say.

I know that Boston area well, i was a prep/boarding school kid in Mass. and knew lots of folks and played against lots of folks from either Weymouth North or Weymouth South.

Boston area had a unique type of racism to it, that existed most notably in the attitudes as well of the sports teams, most particularly, the Celtics and the Red Sox.

Obviously it is only movies, but the descriptions of "southie" and the particular type of white and poor insularity there and in some surrounding areas is in fact very accurately done in films like the Departed and Mystic River.

Obviously those are just movies, but i came from an insular upper middle class world in NYC, and when i was exposed to it i found it genuinely disturbing as...

1. I realized that there were indeed pockets of white poverty and hopelessness that were as bad as black poverty (i have never been to Appalachia but know it is even worse there in many cases)

2. That racism (and anti-semitism) was indeed very very real and obvious in large quantities.

anyway, thanks for the insightful post


I am not gay...but boy if i was, you'd be at the top of the want list :wink:

 

[HyperHulk]

I just thought that biological differences and their relation to athletic success is fascinating, be it thinner calves making better sprinters, shorter arms making better power lifters, etc. etc.

i just think it is fascinating science, that's all.

Yes, but that would seem to apply regardless of ethnicity. For example, if you have a singular ethnicity--say, all white. You're going to have some with longer arms, thicker thighs, narrow hips, flexible joints, stronger lungs. And those various body changes make certain physical activities slightly easier, but they aren't the end all, be all of success.

But I know what you mean, I hadn't thought about how specific physical attributes affect sports.

Here's something for you though. The article mentions that Western Africans are physically advantaged as sprinters and I believe he makes the claim that no white person will ever outrun the fastest West African. I have some issues with that. If it all comes down to physical bodies, there has to be a white person, if not several with the same physical body as a West African. So wouldn't that person have the same innate ability?

I think to a degree, some of these physical pluses are combined with the environment and culture. For example, if many West Africans live in poorer areas and they can't afford equipment, the cheapest and easiest thing they can do is run. If running allows them to compete throughout the world and make money, they people put effort into becoming elite runners. Necessity is the mother of success.

For others, I think some of it is related to parents. If your parents were athletes, they can spend time with you and help train you to become an athlete. That gives an advantage over those who don't have parents who are athletes. So you can have some people who come from affluent homes, but still get their athletic ability and drive from the relationships and privileges in their life.

The other interesting aspect is that the author can explore simple movements, like running and lifting weights but not the complex sports, like basketball, tennis or soccer. The Dutch are the tallest nation but not the best basketball nation--why not? The world cup is won by different nations of different ethnicities. Tennis has no set dominant ethnicity.

I think economics and environment play a greater role than ethnicity when it comes to success in sports and athletics.

 

[Flashy]

Yes, but that would seem to apply regardless of ethnicity. For example, if you have a singular ethnicity--say, all white. You're going to have some with longer arms, thicker thighs, narrow hips, flexible joints, stronger lungs. And those various body changes make certain physical activities slightly easier, but they aren't the end all, be all of success.

Agreed...but no matter what, certain things are a given...an african american who has less fast twitch muscle fibers, will deffo not be faster than a white guy with more of them. There are white guys who are tremendous sprinters...Matt Shirvington, Andre YEpishin, Alexander Kosenkow have all run below 10.10 and they are faster than 99.9999999 % of the AA population of the world...

the real question is the "edge" at the "elite level".

Interestingly, the 100m record was utterly shattered two days ago by a JAmaican fellow named Usain Bolt...a 9.72. (incredible run)

YouTube - Usain Bolt 100M World Record 9.72 !!!!

that time puts him nearly 3 meters ahead of the fastest ever white sprinter (not to mention lots of black sprinters aswell!)

what is it about him? A variety of factors...tremendous stride length (he is 6'5) tremendous anaerobic capacity, tremendous work ethic and focus as well as a perfect physical body and fast twitch muscle fibers...he really is jut a scientific marvel, race aside.



But I know what you mean, I hadn't thought about how specific physical attributes affect sports.

Exactly...that is what is so intersting and what i was trying to get across, that the article is not just saying "blacks are the best, you can't compete"...

a black guy with short arms who trains as hard and is equally strong as a white guy with longer arms, should be able to bench press more...if roles were reversed, and the white guy had shorter arms, he could bench more...it is more biologicy/nature/science than race in fact. Race is simply a prism to view it through.

Here's something for you though. The article mentions that Western Africans are physically advantaged as sprinters and I believe he makes the claim that no white person will ever outrun the fastest West African. I have some issues with that. If it all comes down to physical bodies, there has to be a white person, if not several with the same physical body as a West African. So wouldn't that person have the same innate ability?

I think there in lies the question...where is that white guy though? I think if there were say, 20 white guys who had run the 100 meters in under 10, getting some times that approached the level of the best West african descended sprinters, that would be logical...like say if the top 20 times in the world had say, 15 W.A. descendents and 5 white guys...but the difference is so stark in sprinting as to be noticeable...not one white guy has ever gone below 10 flat...and there are some very fast white guys...faster then 99.99999999% (etc.) of the rest of the world...but at the tippy top, at the most elite level, even the best white sprinter ever, has not been within 3 meters of the best W.A. descendants time.


I think to a degree, some of these physical pluses are combined with the environment and culture. For example, if many West Africans live in poorer areas and they can't afford equipment, the cheapest and easiest thing they can do is run. If running allows them to compete throughout the world and make money, they people put effort into becoming elite runners. Necessity is the mother of success.

I agree...but don't forget, it is historically west african descendants, not west africans themselves who are the best sprinters. The last two fastest men in the world (Bolt and Powell) are both Jamaican. The majority of others are Americans, of West African descent.

Gnerally, a great west african athlete, focuses on soccer much more then track, since there is more passionand iopportunity for soccer.

The influx of Senegalese, cameroon, Ivorian and many other west african players has changed european soccer for the better, there is far more speed and athleticism on the field than ever before, andm ore players then ever before.

Some nations however are very racist against african players (Spain, being horrible)



For others, I think some of it is related to parents. If your parents were athletes, they can spend time with you and help train you to become an athlete.

Agreed...you see tons of "legacy" athletes.


That gives an advantage over those who don't have parents who are athletes. So you can have some people who come from affluent homes, but still get their athletic ability and drive from the relationships and privileges in their life.

The other interesting aspect is that the author can explore simple movements, like running and lifting weights but not the complex sports, like basketball, tennis or soccer. The Dutch are the tallest nation but not the best basketball nation--why not? The world cup is won by different nations of different ethnicities. Tennis has no set dominant ethnicity.

I think economics and environment play a greater role than ethnicity when it comes to success in sports and athletics.

I agree, but it may not be "ethnicity" as such, so much as biology at its most basic level.

if you were to take a variety of the best athletes in the world...and you could put them in a "field test", so to speak, and you were to remove any identifying racial characteristics such as skin color, hair type, hair color, and just played them in their sports, you could still clearly distinguish who was the best "natural" athlete, in terms of flat out performance tests, such as the vertical jump, 40 yard dash, and other sport specific drills...

it would sort of be like a blind "taste test"

obviously that could never be done.

i was a very good athlete in high school, but there was only so far i could get, even with hard work.

I was not fast, because i had thicker legs and torso, and no matter what i did i could not be as fast as certain black or white guys, that were naturally more suited to the array of sports i played.

sucks

 

[BIGBULL29]

I wasn't trying to come across as angry in my post (quite the contrary). I was calling for unity, not malice and disharmony among groups of different ethnicities, races and creeds.

Those who aren't collectively persecuted against in a given society will find suffering somewhere else, whether it be poverty, disease, mental or emotional problems, etc. We will all suffer somehow. Yes, life is unfair: some people do experience less suffering, but it can't be avoided altogether. It comes for us all at some point.

The best healing comes from seeing that all suffer. That doesn't mean, however, that you shouldn't fight for equality (sexism, racism, hatred against the poor, fat people, etc).

To Marleyisalegend: You can't expect a non-black person who's lived a life of hell and poverty to listen to the plights of black people presented as worse as theirs without some kind of anger from the non-black person. People want to know that we are in suffering together, not that you suffer more than me. It leads nowhere, but to bitterness and contempt for the person who has claimed to have suffered more.


To BBucko: You don't have to waste your time reading my posts. I had no malicious intent against you in my post. Peace to you.

 

[Bbucko]

I'm not trying to be funny, but many black people do not like cold weather. I think that is why you rarely see us in hockey, figure skating, bob sledding etc. The other reason is purely economic hockey and figure skating are very expensive to participate in.

Public schools in New England (and I presume the rest of the Northeast and northern Midwest) provide everything required for hockey except skates. I know that the cold doesn't prevent black people from living in Buffalo, Detroit or Boston, where Hockey is extremely popular.

I really believe it's cultural, though I'm at a loss to explain why hockey is intrinsically more "white" than basketball, it obviously is somehow.[/quote]

You also don't see a lot of quality ice rinks in poor urban or rural areas.

I totally agree. But everything in poor urban or rural areas is substandard. Check out the branches of the public libraries and compare them to their counterparts is more affluent suburban areas.

Oh, and you forgot to mention how much black folk hate water :biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1:

If I were a welfare mom and I knew my son wasn't academically gifted you can bet your sweet bippy I'd be putting a football, basketball, or baseball in his hands and encourage him along those lines. Figure skaters don't make half what a baseball player does.

Understood, and I can't say that I'd blame you. I just hope that:
1) The kid had a real interest in sports; and
2) If he should not excel in sports, his self-esteem wouldn't be ground to dust.

Maybe he could be a brilliant pianist or a great dancer or a gifted artist. Academic standards don't often recognize the mind required to conceptualize the "big picture" like a film director, either.

 

[Bbucko]

as usual, bucko, you always have something wonderful, interesting and impartial to say.

I know that Boston area well, i was a prep/boarding school kid in Mass. and knew lots of folks and played against lots of folks from either Weymouth North or Weymouth South.

Weymouth North, 1978.

Boston area had a unique type of racism to it, that existed most notably in the attitudes as well of the sports teams, most particularly, the Celtics and the Red Sox.

Obviously it is only movies, but the descriptions of "southie" and the particular type of white and poor insularity there and in some surrounding areas is in fact very accurately done in films like the Departed and Mystic River.

Without getting into a whole dissertation on racism in Boston, I do have a short tale to tell.

My last four years in Boston were spent in Dorchester (as the South End became just too expensive), but a very posh part of Dorchester called Ashmont Hill. It was a remarkable neighborhood on many levels: architecturally and historically significant; culturally, racially and economically diverse; the pride in ownership/residence not just anywhere but there specifically made it a wonderful place to live and call home.

Among the Shingle-Styles and the Mansards and the Queen Annes were more than a few early (1880s-1890s) Colonial Revivals. The most spectacular and best-located was owned by an affluent, professional black widow and her two teenage sons. She was very active in the Neighborhood Association and a much-admired member of our little community.

On my way home from the subway station I passed by her house to see her puttering in the yard. After pleasantries, she told me she was moving, away from Boston, back to the DC area where she was from originally. When I asked why, she replied the "Boston is no place to raise two teenage boys with self-respect."

She wasn't bitter, and had no animosity toward me specifically. She simply had had enough of Boston's various glass ceilings, sick of all the petty crap, and wanted to return to a place where "Black middle-class" wasn't a contradiction in terms. I understood, gave her a hug, and wished her the best.

This happened, BTW, in the late 1990s: '98 or '99.

Obviously those are just movies, but i came from an insular upper middle class world in NYC, and when i was exposed to it i found it genuinely disturbing as...

1. I realized that there were indeed pockets of white poverty and hopelessness that were as bad as black poverty (i have never been to Appalachia but know it is even worse there in many cases)

2. That racism (and anti-semitism) was indeed very very real and obvious in large quantities.

anyway, thanks for the insightful post


I am not gay...but boy if i was, you'd be at the top of the want list :wink:

Thanks, bud :redface: