A Touchy Racial Subject - Can we discuss?

B_becominghorse

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but i guarantee you, i could take 50,000 people who did not like their place in the USA in that neighborhood you are in, and offer those 50,000 spots, including free public school education to their children, a subsidized domicile in a housing project, (there is nothing wrong with the projects, there is something wrong with the CRIME in the projects)food stamps, welfare and merely the hope of a chance...which is all america guarantees, to 50,000 people from a variety of nations such as Sudan, Myanmar, Ghana, China, and many others, and there would be people desperate to grab that spot.

Oh, good heavens, yes, they would snap it up in second: I live in one of the best neighborhoods in Manhattan! Monsieur, PARISIANS often want what I've got, forget Myanmar and China....:tongue:

But okay, get back to the race/sports talk.
 

Flashy

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Oh, good heavens, yes, they would snap it up in second: I live in one of the best neighborhoods in Manhattan!

So? I deserve to live where i live here. I work hard, am smart, earn enough money to do so, stayed in school, graduated from college, pursued things i wanted to do andmy folks were sucessful and encouraged me as well as were my grandparents.

that is the chance that most people want.


Monsieur, PARISIANS often want what I've got, forget Myanmar and China....:tongue:

Some parisians would want what i have possibly...others would not. I doubt people who live on the Avenue Foch are that jealous, but i know that there are some folks who are treated horribly in France who might.

But okay, get back to the race/sports talk.


thank you
 

invisibleman

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Capitalism is a very evil economic system. It leaves the have-nots very bitter and asking, "Why I am the one who is so poor in a country that has so many rich people, not to mention all of its millionnaires and billionnaires?" In a more socialist society, there is less "economic" jealously, leading to less "economically" bitter people.

I love this phrase that is so often thrown around by conservatives: "A little hard work and determination, and you can be anything you want."


They don't tell you is that you need knowledge, the right people supporting your efforts...willing to support your endeavors.

If you do not have support, you do not have support. Hehehe.

I have worked hard for my own stuff and I fail. I fail because I do not have support. But in a way I succeed, because I support myself. Networking and the people who you work with are vital to your success and their success as well.
 

Tattooed Goddess

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I believe that there are so many factors that come into play about race:

Cultural expectations

Genetic abilities that might be slightly higher in your particular race

Because these genetic abilities are recognized at a young age they are cultivated

And since there are always people who fall outside of the "norm" there will always be arguments saying the entire subject is bullshit because they know someone who doesn't fit that description.

I will give some examples in my own life. My husband went to an elite science and math academy, the white students were in the minority. Asians and Asian Indians were the majority even in our rural area. The professors also were of Asian majority. Why? Because culturally they expect much more from their children as far as math and science goes. There is a great deal of Asian Indian medical students who excel enough in their own country to get into medical school over here and stand out on their academic resumes compared to native US citizens.

When i lived in a large city from birth to 8th grade we lived on the "black" side of town. The schools were in shambles, we didn't get textbooks issued to us, we had to check them out each day and return them to the teacher. She kept them locked in a large filing cabinet or else they would get destroyed. We had race riots all the time at school and the cops were making regular appearances. Ultimately, my parents finally moved us out of the city because i got beat up among the racial contention.

Now these schools on the Northside of the town are slowly being turned into magnet schools where they can crank out some potential in the lower socio-economic income scale. A couple of them have been at it for about 15 years now and they have graduated some of the most intelligent students of all races, predominantly black because they make up the majority of the student population.

The moral of the story is- where you give people the access to the education and cultivate their potential- you can begin to break the racial stereotypes and their own cultural expectations that are often very backwards. For example, i've heard many times about black students who excel in their grades being called "white" and "abondoning their blackness" for wanting to educate themselves and move up out of the slums. This is very backwards and counterproductive to their communities. These magnet schools are slowly showing minority and/or poor children that they can learn things such as advanced math and science or play an instrument and get scholarships.

The same goes for living in very rural areas with prodominantly white people. There is the "redneck" community, where it's not frowned upon to get married/pregnant well before you are 18, drop out of school and make nothing of yourself. The term "trailer trash" doesnt bring the image of black people when you hear it, it brings about overweight, tattooed, bad bleach job, pasty white women with lots of kids they can't keep track of. All of our races have their own stereotypes and expectations.

My parents were happy to receive a highschool diploma when compared to their other family members. They only required that we graduated highschool, even if its only by the skin of our teeth. It was a badge of honor to say their children had not dropped out. We didn't have the expectation to go to college. The day and age has brought about this expectation to change the ideals from highschool diploma to college diploma in order to succeed in life.

Expectations, environment and accessibility all make us who we are. And while we vary much from our siblings and parents in our abilities, there was a time when we were in farmlands and how much we comprehended about advanced subjects didn't help the family survive as much as physical strength. So we encouraged what was needed for survival. Whether it made our genetics alter over time, who knows, but there are many other factors that can also be contributed here.

There is nothing insulting about hearing about how my Great Granpa was a sharecropper and worked his ass off. I don't care how educated you are- if we were put in some of the situations of survival that they endured daily- all of the liberal arts couldnt make it easier. Black people shouldnt be ashamed of their history either, for their ancestors would want them to remember their hardships and how their stories of survival allowed for them to be here today.
 

B_becominghorse

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thank you

But you still do see massive evidence of poverty even in my wonderful neighborhood that I never saw in Toronto or Switzerland, even on extensive stays. Sure, people with money have a blast in the U.S.,. that's not the same as a nation with a high standard of living. The rich Haitians also live well.
 

Flashy

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But you still do see massive evidence of poverty even in my wonderful neighborhood that I never saw in Toronto or Switzerland, even on extensive stays. Sure, people with money have a blast in the U.S.,. that's not the same as a nation with a high standard of living. The rich Haitians also live well.

i don't discount that. I see massive evidence of poverty when ever i go to Yankee Stadium, i see it, if i go up Harlem River Drive, I see it too. I saw it when i was in college in one of the most depressed urban areas in the country (baltimore)...two blocks away from our campus there were crack houses and the neighborhood was one where the Wire is based on.

When i lived in Chicago i lived 3 blocks from Cabrini Green.

When i lived in L.A. briefly I was just about a mile and a half north of the Jungles.

It is a sad fact of life.

but there are alot of people who have a blast in the U.S. not just the rich, or the Upper middle Class, or the middle class, or even the lower middle class.

Wealth doesn't define how good a time you have, it defines more how much more convenient and better can you make the time you have to spend when you are or are not working or schooling etc.
 

B_becominghorse

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i don't discount that. I see massive evidence of poverty when ever i go to Yankee Stadium, i see it, if i go up Harlem River Drive,

Oh shit! I can't believe I didn't see you lived here. I don't know how I thought momentarily you lived in Georgia. Sorry about that, and maybe I'll see you sometimes. You sound like a nice fellow. I'm very fond of Jackson Heights, and amazingly, have a lunch guest tomorrow who is also from there.

Now back to your local Sports & Race Station. We apologize for any inconvenience, as well as for the incessant interruptions...:tongue:
 

Flashy

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Oh shit! I can't believe I didn't see you lived here. I don't know how I thought momentarily you lived in Georgia. Sorry about that, and maybe I'll see you sometimes. You sound like a nice fellow. I'm very fond of Jackson Heights, and amazingly, have a lunch guest tomorrow who is also from there.

Now back to your local Sports & Race Station. We apologize for any inconvenience, as well as for the incessant interruptions...:tongue:

no problem man...i was kind of wondering if you realized i was in NYC. :smile:

but i am from Manhattan, not Jackson Heights...i put Jackson Heights in there with relation to my avatar, "Randy Watson" from Eddie Murphy's coming to America (jackson heights' own, mr. randy watson!!!)

sorry for the confusion
 

transformer_99

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Well, from direct observation, African Americans that I've interacted with openly embrace his blackness and success as an African American. In one particularly vocal case, I don't hear too much from the Office NAACP politician at work. She openly refers to him as a black man. So in that regard, she identifies with the black. But not a peep about the white woman that actually raised him after daddy ran away from his responsibility ? It wouldn't matter if his mother was oriental or even African American, the female isn't going to get much in terms of credits as usual for raising a child with an absentee landlord of a father.

To be honest, Tiger Woods is about the only interracial celebrity that I can recall giving his mother due props, but I also think his bond with his father was deeper and given more credit for his success. In that regard, TW is perceived as a black athlete. There's been a mix of those who identify with him and those who don't from the AA people I know firsthand. Some have never uttered his name simply because TW isn't an NBA or NFL star. In those cases they are more vocally proud of say, Kevin Garnett or Dwayne Wade than TW.

I hope my post doesn't sound too racist, I work for an organization that is predominantly run by Hispanics and African Americans and as much as the cry of discriminations that I used to hear about racism by whites several decades ago, this place is an about face from that, I'm the minority there and I can honestly see reverse discrimination occuring. If you don't speak spanish or even creole (Haitians and other Caribbean blacks), those that can speak in different languages happens quite frequently. And trust me they will determine first if you understand their language and when they collude and talk amongst themselves, you won't hear a word of English. Racism is rampant here in Miami, but that's OK I guess. I'd say I'm their token whitey ?
 

BIGBULL29

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When I said that capitalism is an evil economic system, I meant it. It causes great divides between people. The have-nots don't find capitalism so sweet and embracing, if they were to understand it. This system leaves the middle class tirelessly competing, and the absurdly rich try to get richer for prestige and entertainment. Overall, it leads to insane jealously and unhappiness among people.

Yes, I admit that there is no perfect economic system as all of them are very imperfect (some worse than others). I think socialism, in practice, is less evil than capitalism. But there are still bad sides to purely socialistic countries.

I lived in France, and I have to say that poverty in France is much worse than poverty in the US. My poor aunt, who is very very poor in American standards, is better off in the US than she would be in France. But, that's France. We're talking about the US. Constantly making poor Americans aware of the fact that their impoverished condition would be worse if they were to live in some other country detracts attention from improving their lives here at home. We are always to strive for more fairness and equality in our society, regardless of the contrastive situations overseas.

I will say that the homeless in the US are no better off than the homeless in most other places. God love them! I am very offended when people talk about the least of my brethern. I never look down on the homeless because I know that there is a homeless person in all of us. Never think you're too good for homelessness or beyond its entrappings.

Remember that we don't know what it's like to walk in other person's shoes. I don't know what it is to have some of the pain and sufferings that others have. I just don't know what it's like.

And now to get a little bit back on track as regards the topic of this thread: I never knew some of the pain of old Southern black folks until I got around them in Georgia. They were some of the friendliest people I ever met in this country.
 
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B_becominghorse

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Yes, I admit that there is no perfect economic system as all of them are very imperfect (some worse than others). I think socialism, in practice, is less evil than capitalism. But there are still bad sides to purely socialistic countries.


Oh vell...maybe wildgoosechase wasn't so far wrong, just no need to resort to invective. Purely socialistic countries are simply unreal, with no freedoms, black markets galore, and at the bottom of it all--and this is the secret--they are all CAPITALISTIC--they just do it very badly, reducing everything to dullness. The Soviet Union was one of the dreariest, most paranoia-inducing places ever created, and the only things that had any merit were antiques left over from the tsars like ballet and jewels. They were all thoroughly as corrupt as possible, and brutal and murderous. They sent people away and shot them for disloyalty to the fucked-up Marxist regimes. Pure socialism is a thing of the past and totally and completely worthless. There is poverty everywhere, and everybody was in some sense impoverished in the Soviet Union--one of the dullest societies known in history.

The kind of brutality practised by Stalin is not something one can accuse even the lowest of Western presidents of, except Hitler, and he's no worse than Stalin or Mao. It is totally naive to imagine that Marxism has ever done anything but transfer power from the winners to the losers--and the losers always have to hire the deposed winners to even show them how to run their shitful bureaucracies, because they're stupid, ignorant and don't know shit.

Socialism never works at all except as an adjunct to successful capitalist nations. Otherwise, you can be sad about suffering people under capitalism, but there is always something to be sad about. The problem is people not knowing who their own people are and caring first and foremost about them. But there has to be some really good reason why people were always trying to escape from East Berlin, from Russia and come to the West. Because in general it is better here.

I thought wildgoosechase was too rough, but you really sound as though you don't know the total evils of the Soviet Union and the MILLIONS of people Mao Tse-Tung had murdered over his vile and impious reign. Endless reigns of terror.

Capitalism is neither evil nor wonderful, it's simply the way things are, and a version of non-dynamic capitalism always existed as the economic base of these repulsive and inhuman Communist regimes.
 

mrpond

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so all things capitalist are therefore good and all things socialist are evil. gee thanks for the simplication of both systems. wait one minute.

the slave trade, the wiping out of the indians, the denial of the vote up untiil the early parts of the last century in most western countries, jim crow laws...etc..
 

marleyisalegend

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Well, from direct observation, African Americans that I've interacted with openly embrace his blackness and success as an African American. In one particularly vocal case, I don't hear too much from the Office NAACP politician at work. She openly refers to him as a black man. So in that regard, she identifies with the black. But not a peep about the white woman that actually raised him after daddy ran away from his responsibility ? It wouldn't matter if his mother was oriental or even African American, the female isn't going to get much in terms of credits as usual for raising a child with an absentee landlord of a father.

To be honest, Tiger Woods is about the only interracial celebrity that I can recall giving his mother due props, but I also think his bond with his father was deeper and given more credit for his success. In that regard, TW is perceived as a black athlete. There's been a mix of those who identify with him and those who don't from the AA people I know firsthand. Some have never uttered his name simply because TW isn't an NBA or NFL star. In those cases they are more vocally proud of say, Kevin Garnett or Dwayne Wade than TW.

I hope my post doesn't sound too racist, I work for an organization that is predominantly run by Hispanics and African Americans and as much as the cry of discriminations that I used to hear about racism by whites several decades ago, this place is an about face from that, I'm the minority there and I can honestly see reverse discrimination occuring. If you don't speak spanish or even creole (Haitians and other Caribbean blacks), those that can speak in different languages happens quite frequently. And trust me they will determine first if you understand their language and when they collude and talk amongst themselves, you won't hear a word of English. Racism is rampant here in Miami, but that's OK I guess. I'd say I'm their token whitey ?

it doesn't sound racist, a little naive though. because the person contributing the black genes ran off doesn't mean we should completely ignore that part of his heritage.

furthermore, the white part may be less referenced because it simply isn't recognized in public. again, NO ONE will ever look at him and go "there's a handsome white man". his skin is brown and makes it clear that he's atleast biracial, but 9 times out of 10 any hint of color and society labels you "black".
 

transformer_99

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it doesn't sound racist, a little naive though. because the person contributing the black genes ran off doesn't mean we should completely ignore that part of his heritage.

furthermore, the white part may be less referenced because it simply isn't recognized in public. again, NO ONE will ever look at him and go "there's a handsome white man". his skin is brown and makes it clear that he's atleast biracial, but 9 times out of 10 any hint of color and society labels you "black".

I don't think it naive at all as I have my reasons for holding that line of reasoning. I see it and what's even more, hear it every day @ work.
 

BIGBULL29

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Oh vell...maybe wildgoosechase wasn't so far wrong, just no need to resort to invective. Purely socialistic countries are simply unreal, with no freedoms, black markets galore, and at the bottom of it all--and this is the secret--they are all CAPITALISTIC--they just do it very badly, reducing everything to dullness. The Soviet Union was one of the dreariest, most paranoia-inducing places ever created, and the only things that had any merit were antiques left over from the tsars like ballet and jewels. They were all thoroughly as corrupt as possible, and brutal and murderous. They sent people away and shot them for disloyalty to the fucked-up Marxist regimes. Pure socialism is a thing of the past and totally and completely worthless. There is poverty everywhere, and everybody was in some sense impoverished in the Soviet Union--one of the dullest societies known in history.

The kind of brutality practised by Stalin is not something one can accuse even the lowest of Western presidents of, except Hitler, and he's no worse than Stalin or Mao. It is totally naive to imagine that Marxism has ever done anything but transfer power from the winners to the losers--and the losers always have to hire the deposed winners to even show them how to run their shitful bureaucracies, because they're stupid, ignorant and don't know shit.

Socialism never works at all except as an adjunct to successful capitalist nations. Otherwise, you can be sad about suffering people under capitalism, but there is always something to be sad about. The problem is people not knowing who their own people are and caring first and foremost about them. But there has to be some really good reason why people were always trying to escape from East Berlin, from Russia and come to the West. Because in general it is better here.

I thought wildgoosechase was too rough, but you really sound as though you don't know the total evils of the Soviet Union and the MILLIONS of people Mao Tse-Tung had murdered over his vile and impious reign. Endless reigns of terror.

Capitalism is neither evil nor wonderful, it's simply the way things are, and a version of non-dynamic capitalism always existed as the economic base of these repulsive and inhuman Communist regimes.

I know about the social ills of the Soviet Union and China. :biggrin1:

Pure socialist systems in theory seem better, but they are not in practice. Yes, it practice they can be brutal, but you're talking about purely authoritarian/totalitarian socialist systems (pure communism, more or less). Governments are always corrupt. Yes, capitalism is some other economic systems. I still see it, though, as evil.

I thought that communism was pure socialism with totalitarianism (in theory).

World Ideologies as Explained by Reference to Cows LOL

I'm not expert on different governments systems around the world. I understand the fundamental differences, but there are different kinds of socialism. But, I think all governments are corrupt and economic systems. We have to choose the least evil of them.

I'm trying to distinguish economic systems from governments systems. That's not easy to do. I really confused myself.
 
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B_becominghorse

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I thought that communism was pure socialism with totalitarianism (in theory)

What a grand achievement that would be! The pure socialism is found in Kapital, and you don't hear a word about totalitarianism till everything's gone full-blown Stalin. That's where the Big Lie of the super-Marxist states always is: They promise bliss for all alike, but what you get is a duller ruling class with a Politburo full of brutal men and their super-butch wives, and yet another bunch of workers who live...you guessed it...in shitty conditions just like they do everywhere else. Sometimes I think Communism is just to let the untalented get to be 'it' for awhile.