A US flag can be too big... right?

[snoozan]

A bit of classic LPSG bigotry here.

Do you know any, or is this just wishful thinking?

A bit of classic big dirigible acting like a cunt here.

Actually, I know many, one I'm thinking of in particular, but she is not by a long shot the only person I know that does this.

Second, how the hell can you call me a "bigot" when you have no idea what my political affiliations are?

When I refer to "flag-thumping repukes" I am referring to a specific subset of the American populace, not to everyone that identifies themselves as conservative or Republican.

My point was that i find it ironic that the same group that gets all bent out of shape about people without their beliefs being unamerican, that sees themselves as the true patriots, that go guard the Vietnam memorial from the unwashed war protesters and claim the moral highground by adopting the flag as their symbol, and who see flag desecration and the use of it in art as anything but a symbol of rightness, goodness, and American Protestant Godliness as criminal...

... are the same people that wipe their ass with flag toilet paper and flag assrags and buy every Chinese-made piece of flag-emblazoned junk ever made.

 

[rob_just_rob]

So...

What is the difference between taking a map of the USA and setting it on fire, and taking an American flag and setting it on fire?

 

[snoozan]

So...

What is the difference between taking a map of the USA and setting it on fire, and taking an American flag and setting it on fire?

What about writing "America" on a sheet of paper and burning that? Is that qualitatively different than burning a flag?

In my mind the deal is that the flag is some sort of social contract we've all made or been born into that says that particular symbol of the US holds more power than other symbols of the US (like a map). The flag is understood be a direct symbol of our country and that the respect afforded to it is equivalent to the respect affored to the country itself.

Is that bullshit? I don't know. What I do know is that the reason burning a flag really pisses people off and burning a map doesn't is for the reason stated above. And it's why people burn flags in public rather than maps of the US. They understand its specific meaning as a symbol in our society.

 

[B_big dirigible]

It's safe to say that Wal-Mart wouldn't carry the tacky jingo crap they do if it didn't sell to someone.

Wal-mart sells a lot of US flags, too. Made in China, I imagine, but still US flags.

(To answer your question: Yes, I know people in my own extended family whose homes have a Flag Room, an Eagle Room, and a Crucifix Room.)

I didn't ask you a question, as you didn't engage in an egregious smear of an entire group, however ill-defined, of people based on nothing but your own prejudices. But I will ask one now - what's an Eagle Room?

 

[B_big dirigible]

My point was that i find it ironic that the same group that gets all bent out of shape about people without their beliefs being unamerican, that sees themselves as the true patriots, that go guard the Vietnam memorial from the unwashed war protesters and claim the moral highground by adopting the flag as their symbol, and who see flag desecration and the use of it in art as anything but a symbol of rightness, goodness, and American Protestant Godliness as criminal...

... are the same people that wipe their ass with flag toilet paper and flag assrags and buy every Chinese-made piece of flag-emblazoned junk ever made.

Same group, huh? And you know this, how? Your prejudices tell you?

 

[snoozan]

Same group, huh? And you know this, how? Your prejudices tell you?

yawn.

Plus, how can you call me prejudiced, some of my best friends are black.

 

[LeeEJ]

And this "rule" is?

Any American has the legal right to fly any American flag. There are voluntary guidelines for where and when and how it should be flown and how it should be handled. Car dealers have much the same rights as the rest of us.

The "rules" I linked to in the first post.

And, yes, I know that they're voluntary. But, as with every instance of protocol, there are rules and guidance to make sure that things are done a certain way.

 

[LeeEJ]

Can't let a political thread go without mentioning Bush... :wink:

Back to this link: Flag Rules and Regulations

Scroll down to "Flag Code Violations in the News", and Bush is shown twice. W. and Barbara are pictured walking on a flag carpet, and W. is signing his autograph on a small handheld flag.

The first one... well, it's basically a doormat, or at least it looks that way, so of course it's made to be stepped on. I'd never write anything on any nations' flag, though... that's going too far. It's like saying that you own it, or that you're bigger than it is.

 

[rob_just_rob]

What about writing "America" on a sheet of paper and burning that? Is that qualitatively different than burning a flag?

In my mind the deal is that the flag is some sort of social contract we've all made or been born into that says that particular symbol of the US holds more power than other symbols of the US (like a map). The flag is understood be a direct symbol of our country and that the respect afforded to it is equivalent to the respect affored to the country itself.

Is that bullshit? I don't know. What I do know is that the reason burning a flag really pisses people off and burning a map doesn't is for the reason stated above. And it's why people burn flags in public rather than maps of the US. They understand its specific meaning as a symbol in our society.

Interesting. I would have thought that burning a flag was a relatively harmless form of protest. Nobody gets hurt, and the only thing that gets destroyed is an inexpensive piece of personal property.

There have been attempts to pass constitutional amendments (in the USA) making flag burning illegal (Flag desecration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). Curious how close they have come to being successful, considering how important freedom of expression is said to be, and the absence of practical negative consequences to flag burning. Other than greenhouse gases, I guess.

 

[madame_zora]

Certain people are very susceptible to symbolism and imagery. At the risk of being called a bigot by Big Dirge, I would include in this group anyone who takes the Bible as a book to be more important than the messages contained therein (not a small group, although I seriously doubt they could identify themselves thusly), and people who have their cars plastered with mini-flags and ribbon stickers.

If you want to be "patriotic" you could try by supporting our Constitution, the CONTENT of the Constitution, not the document itself. Anyone who places symbols above principles is practising idolatry. In many cases, burning a flag is an objection to this type of idolatry, placing the principles of freedom as being higher on the foodchain.

 

[SpeedoGuy]

(To answer your question: Yes, I know people in my own extended family whose homes have a Flag Room, an Eagle Room, and a Crucifix Room.)

To the eagle room and crucifix room, I'd also suggest an Elvis room. In velvet.

 

[Blocko]

On LFSG, I saw a flag that was 140x90 on a 400 foot pole. His flag is just average!

 

[LeeEJ]

If you want to be "patriotic" you could try by supporting our Constitution, the CONTENT of the Constitution, not the document itself. Anyone who places symbols above principles is practising idolatry. In many cases, burning a flag is an objection to this type of idolatry, placing the principles of freedom as being higher on the foodchain.

Which is why, despite what my posts seem to say, I support keeping flag-burning legal.

 

[D_Tintagel_Demondong]

Hummers are attractive to non-environmentally-conscious Neanderpublicans, who go apeshit over big giant flags.

Buy a Hummer. Do it for America!

Across the street is a Hyundai dealership for all you liberal commie bastards.

 

[D_Neeson Niceone]

I don't see why people are making a big fuss about this. If people want to fly big flags let them fly their flags. As long as they aren't doing something like having it drag on the ground, etc (or any of the other classic no-nos with the American flag) then who cares.

 

[DC_DEEP]

So...

What is the difference between taking a map of the USA and setting it on fire, and taking an American flag and setting it on fire?

It's symbolic, rob. Much the same as "what's the difference between taking off a class ring or a wedding ring before you go into a bar?" A ring is a ring, right? It's the symbolism.

And this "rule" is?

Any American has the legal right to fly any American flag. There are voluntary guidelines for where and when and how it should be flown and how it should be handled. Car dealers have much the same rights as the rest of us.

I think the point, BD, is that sometimes, the very people who want to scream their patriotism, and let everyone know they are the most patriotic americans, are often the very ones who violate so many of these voluntary rules. If you are a proud flag-flying american, you should at least know how to fly your flag with respect.

When I was still in the Corps, I was in an MOS and a billet that required an extensive knowledge of protocols, such as flag display, honors for officers and dignitaries. How many ruffles and flourishes for a deceased Senator? When do you use the Flag Officers' March? When does the president get "Hail to the Chief" and when does he get "The Star Spangled Banner?" Which bugle call is appropriate for raising the flag, and which one is appropriate for lowering it? Minimum instrumentation for Parading the Roast Beef? Yeah, I had it all memorized.

I had to know the details. It still surprises me how many americans who call themselves patriotic don't even know the very basics.

 

[dong20]

It's symbolic, rob. Much the same as "what's the difference between taking off a class ring or a wedding ring before you go into a bar?" A ring is a ring, right? It's the symbolism.

I agree, burning a flag as opposed to say, an effigy is more suggestive of an 'attack' on the nation rather than the individual. It's not something I'd like to see outlawed but that doesn't mean I need welcome it with open arms.

I think the point, BD, is that sometimes, the very people who want to scream their patriotism, and let everyone know they are the most patriotic americans, are often the very ones who violate so many of these voluntary rules. If you are a proud flag-flying american, you should at least know how to fly your flag with respect.

<...>

I had to know the details. It still surprises me how many americans who call themselves patriotic don't even know the very basics.

The presumption that somehow bigger and more = more patriotic often raises a wry smile in me - surely patriotism is better illustrated by action rather than mere symbolism. The irony of such actions are lost on many though.

 

[DC_DEEP]

<...>
The presumption that somehow bigger and more = more patriotic often raises a wry smile in me - surely patriotism is better illustrated by action rather than mere symbolism. The irony of such actions are lost on many though.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to get across, and I think snoozan was, too. The delicious irony of someone who thinks, "I'm such a good patriot, I'm gonna prove it by buying a case of flags and use them for dinner napkins." In the process of proving how much they love the flag, they desecrate it.

 

[SpeedoGuy]

Yeah, that's what I was trying to get across, and I think snoozan was, too. The delicious irony of someone who thinks, "I'm such a good patriot, I'm gonna prove it by buying a case of flags and use them for dinner napkins." In the process of proving how much they love the flag, they desecrate it.

DC, didn't you know that flag waving conservatives believe themselves to have a patent on patriotism? They do, ya know....or...at least you'd be tempted to believe so by listening to them spout off on any talk radio show.

Locally a group of peace activists recently held a symbolic US flag washing ceremony. They carefully cleaned several US flags to demonstrate their patriotism while showing a desire to remove the stains of a flawed foreign policy. I liked the idea although I feared they might overdo it and transform it into a petty media drama. I need not have worried. The washing was accomplished respectfully by several military veterans experienced with flag protocol.

Wingnuts, of course, bitched there was something anti-American about washing the flag.

 

[snoozan]

Yeah, that's what I was trying to get across, and I think snoozan was, too. The delicious irony of someone who thinks, "I'm such a good patriot, I'm gonna prove it by buying a case of flags and use them for dinner napkins." In the process of proving how much they love the flag, they desecrate it.

Yes, thank you DC and dong, I have an inability to state my opinions succintly, and at times coherently. But that's what I meant.

DC, didn't you know that flag waving conservatives believe themselves to have a patent on patriotism? They do, ya know....or...at least you'd be tempted to believe so by listening to them spout off on any talk radio show.

This is also what I was getting at. I moderate a political forum with a lot dittohead wingnuts, and there is a subset of the aforementioned who have taken ownership of the flag as the symbol of their true patriotism (as opposed to others' false patriotism). Mind you, I am not saying that all or even most conservatives think this way. It's a specific subset of people. Hell, on this board I'm probably far-right.