A view on Islam

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by Ralexx, Jun 9, 2004.

  1. Ralexx

    Ralexx Member

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    So... the game is over.
    In March I saw Al Qaeda ravaging one of Europe's most delightful capitals, Madrid. Blood. Crime. Their beloved ed'dem bed d'em = eye for an eye. Inflicted to whom ? To the unique Occidental area who promoted a constant dialogue with Islam in the last 50 years.
    Proving Europe what ?
    That EU's policy towards the Arabic world failed. The policy - a mixture of equivocal, indeterminate, humanitarian methods, money-for-reforms, and a so-called "diplomatic" language - collapsed, pushing Europe in a crisis that goes beyond the anarchist terrorist-attacks of the 1970s. Diplomacy is useless when coping with barbarians. That's why I said "yes" to war in Iraq (but I said no the American unilateral formula).

    Europe failed miserably. The extremely wise advice of the Romans "Mens sana in corpore sano", a healthy mind in a healthy body, seems to have been forgotten : Europe cultivates its (fairly magnificent) mind, but leaves aside any concerns relating to the health of her muscles. Gracious (read : weak) as she wants to be, she was punched in her pretty face the way she couldn't even imagine.
    And now what, Europe sweetie ?
    25 States, half-ridiculous, half-boring are trying to rebuild their self-esteem. Keeping a bit of their inglorious antagonistic political past, the Euro15/25 team re-re-re-re...-reasserts now the project of a united diplomacy, of a united army, of a Constitution, blah-blah, words, words, words. Everyone dislikes the American hegemony but no one has the will of turning into real Fact the what is now an endless stream of calm, condescending, Olympian anti-Americanism, so vividly claimed by some European nations... Europe miserably fails in co-ordinating its external affairs, Europe miserably fails in remaining attached to a unique principle. These 2 aspects are the eternal causes of its insignificance (worthlessness!) on the world stage -Middle East included, of course.

    Europe commits the unpardonable mistake of judging Islam through its own secularised Christianism. Europe15/25 imagines that the post-1990 Arabian-Islamic terror is a sort of jealousy, a religious-facetted economic anti-Occidental frustrations of a once powerful civilisation. Half-correct, and still not enough. Islamic terrorism is the work of a special sort of fanaticism, typical of Islam : an increasing bigotry, a ferocious intolerance, an obsession that secular minds cannot conceive now. Mix this with the pseudo-intellectual powder called "Jihad" and you'll get the recipe of a new kamikaze. He does not die for the triumph of an idea, he dies for the triumph of pure destruction. Islam managed to show us, in the last 1400 years, that it is the unique religion that does not appreciate LIFE as a gift ; that it is the unique religion for whom mobility, transformation, evolution, construction are a danger and must be eliminated. How? Not by proposing a counter-model, but by simply destroying. Islam cannot conceive liberty, freedom. Freedom means "lack of submission" - while "Islam" means "submission"...
    Therefore, due to the perfect superposition of the civil and the religious laws, for Islam the terrorist attacks seem to be veritable rituals, motivated by an inner mystique. Is the entire mass of the Arabian-Islamic population adhering to such a perception ? Might be so. Born in a name of a vengeful God, they cannot envisage another way.
    They accuse Christian Crusades, voluntarily ignoring that Crusades was determined by the relentless Arabian-Islamic attack against Christian Europe (7th to 11th century).

    What image could I "fabricate" (for my private use) about a civilisation that, when entering History, began by a crime against culture and intelligence ? Islam put on fire the Alexandria Library ! « If the books inside say things against the principles of the Koran, they are dangerous ; if the books inside repeat the same things as the principles of the Koran, they're useless. » Which reminds me : why Christianism never denied the truth hidden in the philosophy created centuries before Christ ?
    Oh, well, of course, one knows modern Islam has its own fractures and hides an enormous diversity : separated Koranic lessons, polarised spiritual hierarchies, the Suuni-Wahhab-Shiites [spell. ?] cleavage, local tensions and nationalistic accents, diverse degrees of modernisation (for them : "satanisation"), nuanced political expressions : from the most severe theocracy (Saudi) to a clerocracy tinted by parliamentarism, going through Hashemite-like monarchy or Nasserian-shaped socialism ; add to this the differences between the Black-African, Arabian and Asian Islam. The diversity here is the perfect cocktail for Islamic terrorism, no matter the targets, the methods, the factions or the tactical stake.
    Europe did its honourable duty towards Middle East and Maghreb. The economic aid for the Arabian states created by de-colonisation was never suspended. Europe created wide institutional spaces for Mediterranean dialogue (public or private). Christian churches remained active for the sake of a "desired harmony between the monotheistic religions". Powerful European states (Germany, United Kingdom, France, but also Spain and the Benelux) host on their territory millions of Muslims. EU (excepting the United Kingdom) was not involved in the second Iraq war against Iraq - the majority of the governments pleaded for a multilateral, UN sanctioned solution ; when US did what it pleased ravaging a country (and now pays through an incessant blood-tribute of its deployed soldiers), Europe sent troops, too : soldiers who dehydrate due to heat, who rebuild schools and hospitals and who arrest criminals, all this in the delightful atmosphere of bullets, bombs, attacks and explosions, general hatred and amongst a hostile populace. (Glorious European idiocy.) For this European offer, Europeans got killed now at home. In the f**king name of Islam. Governments are shook by a panicked electorate, new menaces are proffered, democratic stability and prosperity in Europe are threatened by a bunch of criminal Barbarians, in the name of a criminal Religion.

    But, ohhh, goodness!, in Tunis, Rabat and Beirut one can always encounter intellectuals educated in Paris, London, New York, Vienna and Berlin, ready to expose historical-theological arguments against the frequent perception of an alliance between Islam and terrorism. They are lovely and respectable. But after March 11 2004, for Europe, their discourse is pure bullshit. Their discourse is pure Lie.
    I never heard of Christian bombs and Christian terror in Islamic countries where owning a Bible is a crime punished by physical mutilation. Even in Turkey, a Christian cannot display the Cross, while a Muslim can exhibit the Crescent.

    Christians in Europe did not kill Muslims when they were leaving for Mecca.

    I never heard of a Muslim state who'd build, on its expense, a church, as European states do for their Muslim citizens by building mosques.

    They should cut the crap, the Muslim intellectuals ! The "refined, good, kind and ecumenical" Islam they're mumbling about does not exist. :angry:
     
  2. Imported

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    Javierdude22: I am sorry but I very much disagree.

    Your arch-stereotypical remarks seem a bit dramatic. I am not ready to hit any history books on this but I am pretty sure we did some nasty things during the crusades. Pointing fingers to see who started really seems really useless especially since the crusades are a complex phenomena. Christians were inhuman in killing Jews and innocent people during the crusades, and well, judging who was doing a good thing (Christians or Mohammedans) is really a matter of what side of the fence your on.

    Your current analysis on Islam is a bit shortsighted and arch-general <_< as well. Islam is a peacefull religion an sich, it is the humans that suck interpreting it. I have great Islam friends who are ashamed by the way some people interpret their religion and I&#39;d hate to see them on that pile of arch-generalisations. Yes, many of the late-15 EU members house Muslims, but we house many Latin Americans as well, or Eastern Europeans, or Asians.

    I am pretty certain I will get into trouble if I wear a cross conspicuously in let&#39;s say Iran, or Syria. I am free to do so however in Turkey, and even Morocco.

    In all honesty, yes, it is very easy and popular to make generalisations about Islam at the moment. I am not too happy about the rise in Mosques being built, or the influx of many many Islamic people, mostly because their culture indeed is very different from ours and finding ways to live together peacefully is a lot harder than with, let&#39;s say, South American Catholics. We have to remember though that there are many instances of very peaceful co-existence between Christianity and Islam, in times when nation states were bashing each other&#39;s heads in.

    Christianity has been executed as cruelly, and inhuman in the past as Islam is being executed now. If I were to be the Christian I am now, in the time of the crusades, inquisition and pogroms, I would hope people would be so kind to recognize the distance I take from those actions, as I am sure my friends will appreciate me recognizing their different stance in this.

    Javier
     
  3. Ralexx

    Ralexx Member

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    Oh, I forgot to mention the essential detail : I was speaking about Islam as manifestation, not as principle. There&#39;s a substantial difference.
     
  4. Imported

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    Javierdude22: But even then the generalisations IMO are not even close to reality, nor are they fair I think.
     
  5. Ralexx

    Ralexx Member

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    :huh: What/which "generalisations" ?

    By any mean, of course there are some "generalisations" in the text I posted above, but (1) I cannot post here a doctorate paper on Islam - (2) please indicate the "generalisations" I made and the « arch-stereotypical remarks » ...
    I expressed a point of view, it&#39;s not an academic speech. Please make the difference.

    PS - err... wait, since when Muslims are an equal category for « Latin Americans as well, or Eastern Europeans, or Asians », as you put it ?&#33;?&#33;? We&#39;re not talking about geographic origins - &#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; - , but about religion &#33; Uhhh... :blink: ... please don&#39;t mix ... whatever... doesn&#39;t matter...
     
  6. Imported

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    Javierdude22: Uhm...why are you getting so upset? We are discussing.

    The generalisation I deduct from your choice of words and one I disagree with is that even Islam as a manifestation is

    This is simply not true for Islam as a manifestation but for Islam as interpreted by a very select radical few. You were refferring to Islam as a principle here by the way, which makes it equally untrue since it could be compared to the Old Testament in the Bible.

    This remark is one I most disagree with and, with all due respect, which makes me believe you are very misinformed about islam as a principle as well as a manifestation. I have Turkish neighbours on either side of the house and let me tell you they can very much see another way to deal with the current situation.

    Principles

    You were isolating Muslims in western Europe from the original population not based on their religion but based on them being different and therefore in a way &#39;owing&#39; us. That is why I pulled in other &#39;different&#39; people who might just as well &#39;owe&#39; us if that was the case. You can&#39;t take the case of individuals as an argument to plea for a case on a higher aggregate level (nations or religion). :blink:

    Anyway, this is my opinion I guess.

    Javier
     
  7. lacsap1

    lacsap1 New Member

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  8. Ralexx

    Ralexx Member

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    Comparation implies differences...&#33; Are you going to tell me that « since it could be compared to the Old Testament in the Bible » it is the same ? Do you see Christianism and Islam thatsimilar ??? I should remember you that the latter was created against the first (viewed as "corrupt").

    I said Arabian-Islamic, the Turks are Altaïk. The cultural differences between the two are considerable.

    I wasn&#39;t speaking about the Muslims in western Europe. Why do you make that your only reference ?

    That&#39;s whay I said through the title of my thread : a vision on Islam. Implying that "this is my opinion".
     
  9. Imported

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    Javierdude22:
    We did in a way ey? I almost forgot about that thread.

    No, obviously they are not the same. My point is that the features of Islam you describe are equally mentioned in the Old Testament. The amount of &#39;extremism&#39; that could be interpreted in my opinion has little difference between the Islam and what the Old Testament tells us.

    Pardon, I was not aware Turksih Muslims were not included. The comment to me still is misplaced since also many of my Morrocon colleagues have very distinct views on the current situation besides resorting to terrorism.

    Well, maybe because that is what you referred to in your original post when talking about &#39;hosting&#39; millions of Muslims. (Germany, UK, Spain etc. are still considered W-Europe right?)
     
  10. D_Humper E Bogart

    D_Humper E Bogart New Member

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    In that case Ralexx, why don&#39;t the Christian nations of the world nuke them into atomic submission???

    Isn&#39;t that what us "unlightened people" do to out enemies?

    Now why does this sound like a tactic that they&#39;d use, given half the chance.

    Blargh, best solution is to treat everyone as "hostile" regardless of nationality and get it over and done with.
     
  11. Pecker

    Pecker Retired Moderator
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    For the non-Islamic to try to understand the essence of the religion we&#39;d have to convert - not just join, convert - heart, mind and soul.

    I&#39;m not saying that many of our fears or concerns about fundamentalist Islam aren&#39;t justified, just that to understand it we&#39;d have to see it or experience it from the inside, which is not likely since there seems to be little proselyting in the faith.

    I can recall studying the Mohammedanist move into Spain in the 6th grade (this was in 1957) and the point of the class that has stuck with me over the years was that the invaders made no effort to covert their enemy. They conquered. With the sword. Sound familiar?

    Granted, most religious men have evolved beyond that. Most. Those who have not are the ones we have to be concerned about.

    What I am saying is that Modern Islam is an oxymoron. The adherents have not evolved.
     
  12. jonb

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    Actually, Pecker, Islam was more civilized before the 20th century. It&#39;s more proof that social evolution doesn&#39;t have a "progressive" movement.
     
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