A written constitution. To have or not to have, that is the question.

cock23

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I think Europeans that do not travel much and just rely on mass media for building an opinion should not judge the US according to what is sold them by the press and TV:
- mass shooting happen in Europe as much as in the US
- a city such as New York is in fact incredibly quiet and peaceful compared to many European cities (personal experience)
- I remember when this blackout occurred in NYC in 2002 (I think?), here everybody said it could never happen on this side of the pond; a couple of weeks later all of Italy was without electricity...

First of all, learn to never presume anything. I've been to the USA several times-Washington D.C. and New York City, to be specific, and I have family friends living in both cities. In fact, my next trip to New York will be in March, and in the summer I'm going to China for a month. I've also visited places like Singapore, Thailand and have been all around Europe and the Balkans-including your native Switzerland, where my aunt lives. So I'm hardly a European who "doesn't travel very much". And I don't rely on mass media either to form my opinions either. If you want to know where my opinions come from, I'm a Politics student and half my course is about the US and American Politics.

As for New York being "quiet and peaceful", I hate to break it to you but the murder rate in New York istwice as high as the murder rate in London. The murder rate used to be even higher then that, but in recent years Michael Bloomberg has tried hard to turn this trend around, and has had some success.
New York murders at their lowest level thanks to zero-tolerance policy | Mail Online

New York has one murder for every 16,600 inhabitants, while London has one for every 38,900.

If you haven't noticed, I live in America and in the most populated city at that. Mass shootings do not happen in our country on a regular basis. As for the rest of gun crime, you can fix that making them harder to obtain through government regulations. Your scenario could have easily be prevented if establishments that sell firearms were held more responsible to whom they sold them to.

That's all very well and good....but there's several problems with that. The first being is that the National Rifle Association-and Republicans in general-oppose any kind of gun control and laws which make it tougher to obtain firearms. And the Republican party swings enough weight around-both in the individual states and in Congress-which ensures that greater gun controls don't pass through very easily, if they pass at all.

The other problem is that the Consitution gives the right to everyone to bear arms, so any laws which ban or control the distribution of firearms could be called "unconstitutional" and rendered invalid by the Supreme Court. But to ammend the Constitution 3/4 of Congress would have to agree to pass an ammendment, meaning that a substantial portion of Republicans would have to agree. And that ain't gonna happen.

First off, it isn't "vital" to everyday life because the majority of people in this country do not own a firearm. There are more Nintendo Wii consoles in circulation out there than guns. For the people that do have them, I'm sure some just feel the need to be more secure at home knowing that it's there in the need of a real emergency. Instead of paying attention to the media and the sadistic way it overly-glorifies tragedy when it comes to violence, try to figure out how we can cut down the instances? If Prohibition and the "War on Drugs" taught us anything, it demonstrated that if you make something illegal more people will want it just out of curiosity.

So in other words, you havn't managed to anwser my question as to why fireams are so necessary for everyone to have in America-which points to the fact that guns aren't really a necessary part of everyday American life. Which only reinforces my opinion that it isn't necessary for everyone in the US to bear arms.

And sure, I agree completely when you say that something is made a lot more exciting when a zero tolerance ban is imposed on it. But I just don't agree with the Constitution when it gives everyone the right to bear arms, as that's way too far in the other direction. It's a part of the Constitution which needs to be clarified and updated, but it isn't going to happen anytime soon-and it all goes back to my argument that Britain would have a similarly inflexible system if a written Constitution was adopted here.
 

eurotop40

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First of all, learn to never presume anything. I've been to the USA several times-Washington D.C. and New York City, to be specific, and I have family friends living in both cities. In fact, my next trip to New York will be in March, and in the summer I'm going to China for a month. I've also visited places like Singapore, Thailand and have been all around Europe and the Balkans-including your native Switzerland, where my aunt lives. So I'm hardly a European who "doesn't travel very much". And I don't rely on mass media either to form my opinions either. If you want to know where my opinions come from, I'm a Politics student and half my course is about the US and American Politics.
....
I have never said that YOU do not travel much.
I understand that in your country of origin people are rather thin-skinned (we have many here in Switzerland) and grow up being very judgmental, which is passed from generation to generation (personal experience). I hear young people saying: "the Kosovo-Albanians are so, the Croatians are so etc... When "we" were under the Turks (centuries ago) it was not so bad, etc..." That's why the area is still so litigious. Too bad, they are handsome and intelligent people.
 

cock23

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I have never said that YOU do not travel much.
I understand that in your country of origin people are rather thin-skinned (we have many here in Switzerland) and grow up being very judgmental, which is passed from generation to generation (personal experience). I hear young people saying: "the Kosovo-Albanians are so, the Croatians are so etc... When "we" were under the Turks (centuries ago) it was not so bad, etc..." That's why the area is still so litigious. Too bad, they are handsome and intelligent people.

Apologies, but the fact that you made your post directly after I made mine seemed to imply that you were reffering to me.

And unfortunatly, you are right when you say that about the Balkan people...a fair number are very judgemental and are quick to insult each other. But then there's also a growing number which are like me, who believe that everyone should bang their heads together and get over past/current disputes and get on with each other :wink:.
 

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The UK has much more in common with the USA and Canada than the European mainland.

In time though the European Union will become a federal republic similar to the USA or it will eventually collapse. The USA went through is this a union of many states that is one or is a a confederation of sovereign independent states. WE had to fight a Civil War over that issue before it was resolved. The economic issue was slavery, but the political issue had dogged the early American Republic as various areas of the young nation had threatened to pull out when things weren't going their way.

It is this issue. Will the United Kingdom remain a truly independent sovereign nation or will it be a part of a larger sovereign European Union?

Will the British Monarchy and British cultural and political institutions make it to 2066?

I won't live to see it. I'm betting that they will. The Queen and her descendants will become a symbol that the United Kingdom is still an independent nation. By 2166 I'm not so sure.

Hi Freddie.

You can idle away a day reading the New Dawn for Europe thread. But in a nutshell, the UK and Europe has a very big question to address. That question is simply what is the most effective structure for Europe and the UK in the now world and that which we might expect.

IMO those who are against a strong federal Europe, use small arguments to denounce a big question. This gives an easy option for the naturally conservative, but the danger is very real and very big, i.e. you sink.

I would like to see a very strong liberal democracy with rights enshrined in a constitution. I would also like to see Russia within Europe. This would make Europe 900 million strong and the largest economy in the world. I don't care about local anomalies, they are irrelevant IMO in the bigger picture.
 

ubered

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Hi Freddie.

You can idle away a day reading the New Dawn for Europe thread. But in a nutshell, the UK and Europe has a very big question to address. That question is simply what is the most effective structure for Europe and the UK in the now world and that which we might expect.

IMO those who are against a strong federal Europe, use small arguments to denounce a big question. This gives an easy option for the naturally conservative, but the danger is very real and very big, i.e. you sink.

I would like to see a very strong liberal democracy with rights enshrined in a constitution. I would also like to see Russia within Europe. This would make Europe 900 million strong and the largest economy in the world. I don't care about local anomalies, they are irrelevant IMO in the bigger picture.

Hi Drifter,

I agree, especially with the last part. Differences between areas are always put forward as an argument against a wider/federal overarching structure. I don't have a problem with this - the fact that Spain is different from Norway doesn't mean they can't share common goals if they choose to. The differences argument could also be argued on a national level - what does Galicia have to do with Andalusia or the Shetland Islands with Kent?
I would like the structures of the EU to be a lot more democratic though, and for the parliament to have more powers. As well as Russia, I'd also like to see Turkey in the EU - though I have my doubts as to how economically viable this would be.

I'm from the UK originally, but grew up in Spain and lived for ages in France, so I'm used to moving within a transnational European space and don't get the europhobia-on-principle of many Brits. Interesting that the EU is criticised for very different reasons by the right and left in the UK and the rest of Europe. I feel the UK needs to get past the "we're an island" mentality, because it monpolises public debate and precludes discussion of important issues surrounding EU institutions and how democratic they are.

And by the way, I love your avatar!:biggrin1:
 

Freddie53

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Cant say if it is necessary, but no doubt the reason is because the US officially distrusts Canada.
The USA and Canada have different procedures in allowing non citizens to visit. The fear is that a terrorist will go to Canada first and then slip across the border. This new law was passed in the Bush years and Bush in my opinion was one of the most incompetent presidents in our history.

This is really a joke. Most of the American/Canadian border is artificial. A parallel line was used. There are farms owned by either Americans or Canadians that cover both nations. There is NO BORDER you can see for the most part.

I visited Canada several years ago. There was a checkpoint but other than record our car license number that was it. At that time the Canadian dollar and the American dollar were so close in value that either currency could be used in retail in either nation. Canadian and American quarters for instance are the same size and either will work in a vending machine.

I didn't need a passport to go into Canada. Now I do. I believe that will change under Obama.

The channel/sea is a double edged sword. Yes, it is difficult to cross with an army, but it also isolates the country from foreign help. Britain came very close to starving in both world wars. The main weapons of war currently are economic ones, which might give pause to an isolated country wholly reliant on trade from far away.



The US has a perception of the 'special relationship'. The perception is that it has a special relationship with whichever country it needs support from at that time.100 years ago Britain was in a similar position of isolated supremacy. Isolated by virtue of being pre-eminent. But in reality by 100 years ago this had already changed and the new kid on the block (Germany) was challenging for the top spot. two lessons? first, the top dog has no friends and if it seeks to remain top dog, is unable to have, because that requires sharing. second, Britains proper response now is to form alliances of its own, frankly against interference from the top dog. That's what Germany did. Hopefully the coming resource war will remain primarily an economic one rather than military.
The USA has that perception of the "special relationship" for a variety of reasons. Time heals wounds. While the USA has no desire to restore the monarchy, the people of the USA are taught in school about the UK being the mother country. In law the unwritten common law of England is still the backbone of our law. Our nursery rhymes and other children's liturature is based on those in England. In most American schools the history of the British Isles is still taught. There is one year in high school devoted to just American liturature and then one year devoted totally to English liturature and a lot of English history is also taught in conjunction will that.

So many Americans particularly in The South where my family has lived for generations have English heritage. I am at least 90 % British Isles with heritage from all the countries of both islands. I am very proud of that linage. I can trace some of my heritage to the Normans that invaded in 1066. I even know they settled in the Lake District.

Part of that "special relationship" is most Americans think of the British, Canadians, Aussies and people from New Zealand as being family. Having said that there is nothing closer than being family. There is also nothing more divisive than a family quarrel.

I taught social studies. Societies have to have some things to survive. One is a common communication system. I made my post. You made a reply and then I made responded. Both of us are using English and it is both our first language and neither of us has a problem of communicating. That speaks volumes about special relationships. I'm sure that there is a special relationship between Spain and Latin America that speaks Spanish as well.

About your second part, "Britains proper response now is to form alliances of its own, frankly against interference from the top dog. That's what Germany did. Hopefully the coming resource war will remain primarily an economic one rather than military." that is the quagmire that the UK has had to get through after the change from being the British Empire to being the UK. While the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand are the natural cultural allies along with the British Commonwealth, the UK's economic future is with the European Union. From what I am reading it is not the Americans that are having a problem with the UK looking toward Europe. It is many British people themselves that do NOT want to give up sovereignty to Brussels. It appears to me that there is much more animosity toward Brussels then toward Washington.

The USA still needs the UK and the UK needs the USA. The USA and the UK have helped each other now for almost a century in trying to control world affairs. It is easier to see this when reading American press than
European press. London is the real cultural capital of Europe. Paris or Berlin get very little spotlight. No other nation in Europe outside the UK has any real military or political power outside the regional area of Europe.

You seem to believe that it is America that is trying to keep the UK from integrating into the European Union by playing top dog. Paris and Berlin are much more a threat to the UK than Washington when it comes to trying to control British behavior. I haven't picked up on any American opposition to the UK looking toward Europe.

I feel a little sad in that being proud of my British ancestry I saddens me to know that the once great British Empire not only will cease to exist, but the idea of an independent Britain will also fade into history.

I'm a realist though. Unless we can get a tugboat and pull Australia, New Zealand and Britain across ocean lines so there is just a channel dividing all countries plus Canada and the USA, Britain has no real choice but go European.

It is the younger British people who see America as carry a big stick playing top dog. We can thank George Bush for that. I live here in America. The disdain that many British people seem to have for George Bush is mild compared to what MOST Americans

There is no such thing as a truly independant sovereign nation today. The US may come close, but even she is complexly dependant on others. Probably the US would be able to become truly independant, at considerable cost in standard of living etc, if it really wanted. Britain could not. We would starve. It is foolish for anti-EU people to go round pretending Britain can escape the authority of external forces such as the EU by leaving the club. This would just make matters worse.
I agree with you with the exception of the part where the US would be able to come truly independent. Perhaps the USA, Canada and Mexico could pull it off together but I doubt it.

We do have one advantage in that we produce more food then we can possibly eat. So America would not starve provided our citizens could afford the food at the newly inflated prices. Most of our manufacturing has gone overseas. We have few textile factories left. Over half our automobiles are not made in America. China is bankrolling America. Except for food, it might be a close race as to which nation would suffer the most if either the UK or the USA tried to be truly independent. To say that the majority of Americans would be in poverty would be an understatement.

QUOTE=dandelion;2489105]

I would say I am a monarchist, but the current abdication of authority by the monarchy is precisely what makes me question its existence. A monarchy which tries to be wholly democratic is an exercise in self destruction.[/QUOTE] The monarchy holds the key to the UK remaining culturally independent. The monarchy represents the tradition of the UK now for almost 1000 years. To change to a republic where there is a head of state may sound nice. I hope the British will consider how the head of state is an unknown and with no real power in many parliamentary systems including Canada and Germany. We hear from their prime ministers, but rarely from their heads of state.

Here in America, the Queen's approval rate was in the 80s in 2007 when she paid a state visit to the USA. President Bush's approval rating was below 30. I'm amazed it was that high.

The Queen is still a symbol of particularly England but all the UK. All societies have to have symbols to survive. The monarchy has served the UK well in that regard.

I remember when the Queen was young and was pregnant with her youngest children.

I do understand and agree with you though that in the end, it is economics that drives the machine.

The key word was interdependence. Since the beginning of civilization we have been giving at least some of our independence to the whole in order to have the small slice we have be a bigger and better slice. I gave up ownership of the entire earth except for my small plot of ground where my house stands. My rights stop where your rights begin. That is how cilivization works. It takes an large empire to be truly independent. None exist like that of the 19th century.
 

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Hi Freddie.

You can idle away a day reading the New Dawn for Europe thread. But in a nutshell, the UK and Europe has a very big question to address. That question is simply what is the most effective structure for Europe and the UK in the now world and that which we might expect.

IMO those who are against a strong federal Europe, use small arguments to denounce a big question. This gives an easy option for the naturally conservative, but the danger is very real and very big, i.e. you sink.

I would like to see a very strong liberal democracy with rights enshrined in a constitution. I would also like to see Russia within Europe. This would make Europe 900 million strong and the largest economy in the world. I don't care about local anomalies, they are irrelevant IMO in the bigger picture.

You see the possible world of the future, not the world, not the 19th century which compared to 20th century was a wonderful world for western Europe and the USA.

I don't see Eastern Europe and Russia in the same federation for at least two generations. It would take bringing in eastern Europe first and then later bringing in Russia. But then all we are doing is speculating. The economic situation in the world will drive what happens much more than culture will over time.

The concept that London will be the real capital of a European Federation is very appealing to most British I think. But not to the rest of the federation. For whatever the reason, the UK is considered the top European dog by non European nations. And it appears that London is more powerful than Paris or Berlin, but that is just the perception I get from reading the media. I know it appears in American press that the UK is much more important than any other European nation.

Also consider, would the European Union be any more permanent than the Holy Roman Empire or the Austria-Hungry Empire were in the not too distant past. Or even the Eastern European/Soviet block was in recent memory.

Can Europe reach the point where the loyalty is first to Europe. Die for Europe. Have European holidays, European culture than represents all of Europe not just one country within Europe. Can the European Union take one of the now five permanent UN Security Council seats and give up the UK, France and Russians ones bowing to India and Japan as the other new owners of those permanent ones? A European national anthem. A across the board one year European history told from the European Union slant, not individual states slant?

It is ultimately those questions that will determine if Europe can become one large and diverse nation like the USA or just be an economic alliance or military alliance to be dissolved like the Warsaw Pace when it became irrelevant.

The questions will be answered not by my generation that is being born as we speak. They will ultimately make those decisions.
 

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hi freddie: Its nice to hear a view from the US about british-us relations. The story I hear is that most of the US cares not at all for anything which happens outside the US, or even outside their own state. That they also care little for federal politics. If this is true, then it puts into perspective the spirit of friendship between the US and any other country. Wkipedia states the largest ethnic group in the us is those of German descent, which ties in with comments I have read about the US being very nervous about which side to join in ww1, ww2, because of the natural loyalty of this large group.

I suspect there may be a rose-tinted romanticism amongst some Americans for a historical link to britain. In Britain if I want to see a 500 year old castle I just go a couple of miles into town. We are not craving links to a historical past, rather trying to escape from one. America may revel in the fact that so many people share the same language. We presume upon that fact too, but with a slight annoyance that america has hijacked our language and imposes a cultural dominance. The queen is well respected in the US, but I don't hear any calls to change the US constitution to make her head of state.

Kaiser Wilhelm greatly admired and respected Britain and her achievements, then rather more immediately impressive, but that did not stop him taking his own course when he felt it was against his interest to fall in with Britain. He never could quite understand why the British resisted his efforts to build the world's greatest navy instead of agreeing with his plans and staying allies. The effect of his policy was to drive a wedge between Britain and Germany until eventually Britain was forced into a European war she did not want or even care about. Wilhelm also started off with a rose tinted view of Britain, and particulalry his grandmother Queen Victoria, the very epitome of a traditional monarch to the heir to a throne only 50 years old. Britain chose to take on the upstart, and did it by abandoning isolationism and making allies.

Obviously matters now are not so stark, but America took the place of Germany. Germany herself has taken a different tack, and devotes her energies to creating an empire by largess rather than bullets. You dont think that from this side of the pond some people might resent America? Germany and Britain tore each other to pieces, and America picked up those pieces for herself. None of the eurosceptics here should take me for someone who does not care about Britains position, traditions, cohesion, continuance and everything else. I simply see the subtler threat as the greater one. Meanwhile America takes up Bismark's strategy, divide and conquer, seeking to encourage disharmony amongst those who might unite against her.

Food isn't the only issue, though after a couple of months without food we would probably have stopped worrying about a couple of months without electricity.