AA and spirituality

[dannymawg]

I was going to multi-quote and respond (or rather, pick apart/split hairs :tongue to the discourse so far, but it would take up a page and not be that comprehensible. Just know that I am here reading and absorbing as much as I can. I will, however, reiterate some the the points in my OP that might not have stuck, now that we're on page two - which is impressive for me - I don't think I've created a thread (other than my story in the fiction forum) that has warranted such response.

...but under the advice of my recently sought-out therapist, I needed to hit some sort of 12-step program while the idea was fresh in my head.

My therapist was taking the tack of "Go to a meeting. ANY meeting. Discard the thought for now of the distinction between alcohol and pot, and think of addiction and support in general." That was what tipped it in for me.

At the advice of my therapist, I looked into other programs similar to the 12-step method, such as the SMART Recovery program - but something told me that the popularity of AA might be a better choice.

I have looked at alternatives to AA - many hours spent over the last two weeks. My predilection towards AA was also tipped in by the following:

I should also mention here that my mother's sister was a prominent member of our community, as a APN nurse in the alcoholic ward of our local hospital for almost 30 years. She passed away in '03, and I really wish she was still here with us now. Seeing the light in people's faces when I dropped her name in the meeting last night was heartening, especially in those faces of the oldtimers.

I didn't have much contact with my aunt in my adult years, as I made the fatal mistake of shutting out my immediate family over the years in the face of my shame of being homosexual.

What makes it all the worse is that I moved back to my parents' home eight years ago in the face of 1) my financial straits and 2) after the death of my dad two years earlier, to give my mother some much needed support. Keep in mind during all this is that I'm still closeted, despite having the luxury of having an older sister who broke the ice and came out to the family as homosexual. Needless to say, I haven't been much support. Guess it's the stubborn Taurus in me...



Anyway, in my second meeting last night, I recognized one of the oldtimers as a former co-worker, from a local hardware store I worked at in my late teens. An affable gent, I had always liked the guy and was surprised to see him there. As is sometimes the case, the folks struggling with addictions are some in the community you wouldn't suspect.

After the meeting, he said something that had me nearly in tears, sitting in my car in the parking lot five minutes later. Keep in mind folks, that where I might have gotten misty eyed at times over the years, I haven't even let go to cry at my dad's funeral 10 years ago, or even years before that.

"Danny, you're looking for the silver bullet for all your problems. It ain't out there, son. Take from these meetings what you can and leave the rest. It will all add up soon, to a direction you can take yourself."



I hear what has been said about the "higher power" in this thread so far, which has correlated with what many folks in the two meetings have said after I expressed my concerns during my turn at the roundtable. Be it a tree, the ocean, the group I was sitting with, whatever - that higher power doesn't have to conform to anything but what means something to me.



If it means something... when only getting buzzed after work/hammered on the weekends and cranking my stereo to worship dumbass rock n roll (and the requisite sex n drugs) in all its forms has meant anything after all these years...



As I preview this post before posting, I see a couple more replies have come in. Simcha, I must have been stoned :tongue: - it didn't occur to me to look for a Marijuana Anonymous.



And thanks to everyone thus far. Going back tonight. More to say later tonight or tomorrow.

 

[B_sugarandspice]

I cant say the specific Anonymous meetings i used to go to were all that helpful when it came to learning the steps and applying them. I went to two different groups, one was not as helpful as the other. The other group was helpful because of the peers i had there. I would do my addiction to and from the meetings. I felt a lot of guilt and even lied on the meeting about not doing it.

I have to say i ended up stopping it on my own long after i quit going. It wasnt the same addiction you have, but it was my crutch that almost destroyed my life and business.

Sharing your story and hearing the stories of others is what really helped me. I have the Big Book and while it was helpful to hear the quotes out of it, i never spent the time studying it on my own.

I was always confused when someone would refer to a specific step by memory, because i never got to know them all that well. I felt a little stupid because i didnt know them as well as the others.

I hope it works out for you. I found my husband and child to be my inspiration for quitting even though they say you should do it for yourself. I did it for the love i had for others. Some of the feedback i got regarding my reasons for wanting to stop was kind of ridiculous i thought. Oh well. We all have to find the ultimate reason to stop what we are doing to destroy ourselves.

I would call this an example of a drug problem rather than an addict.
The reason I can tell is that one way she could quit was because of her daughter and by using reason.
This stuff unfortunately isn't usually enough for someone who needs a program.
That is the big difference an "addict/alcoholic and having a problem with the stuff.
For addicts and alcoholics the problem is THEM and without drugs and alcohol they are still a fucked up mess. They may start to act out in other ways.

 

[D_Chaumbrelayne_Copprehead]

Got clean and sober over 9 years ago through AA.

I smoked a lot of weed and, while it is not physically addicting as heroin or cocaine or tobacco are, you can develop a habit and I did.

Dannymawg, I'm gonna PM you but wanted to stand up for the program and the difference it made in my life. I see a lot of stuff posted so far that I would not find helpful if I were in your situation now.

 

[B_cigarbabe]

I would call this an example of a drug problem rather than an addict.
The reason I can tell is that one way she could quit was because of her daughter and by using reason.
This stuff unfortunately isn't usually enough for someone who needs a program.
That is the big difference an "addict/alcoholic and having a problem with the stuff.
For addicts and alcoholics the problem is THEM and without drugs and alcohol they are still a fucked up mess. They may start to act out in other ways.

You aren't a therapist like Simcha and to label everyone who does drugs as "a fucked up mess" is a gross generalization.Are you perhaps talking about yourself? I wonder if you would tell us how "they" may act out
if doing drugs isn't considered by you as "acting out"?
cigarbabe:saevil:

 

[HyperHulk]

"Danny, you're looking for the silver bullet for all your problems. It ain't out there, son. Take from these meetings what you can and leave the rest. It will all add up soon, to a direction you can take yourself."

Danny--I'm proud of you and happy for you that you've taken some steps to regain control over your life and your choices.

My only experience with this is years ago when a friend of mine suggested that I attend some co-dependents anonymous meetings because I was hung up on a person who I was having an unhealthy relationship with. I had the same reservations that you did but thought, what they hell? It can't hurt.

And it didn't. I only attended 4 meetings but I learned alot. I learned about co-dependency and I learned what I was contributing to the situation, so I learned what I had power over. I also learned that my issues weren't as bleak as I was seeing them. I never followed the step process per se because I didn't feel I needed it. Someone said for me what was said to you, "take what works and leave the rest." That's how I approach most bits of information now.

The value is in using everything you can that gets you closer to where you want to be. Keep seeing the therapist, continue AA (although finding an NA or Marijuana specific one would help a bit more I think) and consider a life-coach to shift your energy to other goals you have in your life (the life coach shouldn't work on your addiction though).

I believe you have the strength to see this through.

 

[B_sugarandspice]

You aren't a therapist like Simcha and to label everyone who does drugs as "a fucked up mess" is a gross generalization.Are you perhaps talking about yourself? I wonder if you would tell us how "they" may act out
if doing drugs isn't considered by you as "acting out"?
cigarbabe:saevil:

Actually , I am a therapist and you need to re-read the post.
Gosh, Lady , You are such a negative and hateful person.
You really have problems.
Maybe you should get on some hormone therapy.
Or maybe Lithium.
Maybe you wouldn't be so bitter.
I wonder what you have been through that burned your soul and made you this way.
I feel bad for you and hope you can find the peace and tranquility that you desperately need.

 

[B_sugarandspice]

...and by fucked up mess, I mean that they are not just nice people who drank to much. They may also start to feel terrible after getting clean and that is where they will have to work very hard to recover.
I apologize if it came across as judgmental or critical.
I have just seen so much and it and dealt with so much of it.
I know a lot of people in recovery and many times I don't have anything else to do but hang out with them since most of the time they are the only sober and drug free people I know.

 

[2322]

:hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug:​

 

[earllogjam]

Mawg,

Ever think about growing dreadlocks, moving down to Jamaica, becoming a rastafarian, and musing in reggae on the side, all the while being high all the time? At least then your addiction would be sustainable... even valued. And it wouldn’t be a negative life sucking vice but rather a vehicle for your spirituality.

Then of course you live in North America...

I suspect that this thread is a cry for an answer much more deeper than you attending AA meetings and wanting us to comment on whether it’s a good thing or not and if god exists somewhere.

I suspect it has a lot to do with where your life ended up and not knowing where to go to fix it. I don’t think it’s about using pot everyday. That’s just a manifestation. I don’t think pot use is necessarily a bad thing but if the escape has become your reality and your real life is a nightmare then there is a problem because it just ain’t sustainable.

I also suspect you know what you really need to do but don’t have much faith that the future is gonna turn out OK so you are seeking answers, reassurance.

That’s probably where this higher power spiritual god thing is necessary part of AA - blind faith. Because if you don’t have any faith that you will get better and things will turn out fine...why bother? Why invest so much of your time and give up your pleasure to something that will fail? I think it is safe to assume that every great achievement you’ve made- faith was a prerequisite, a required mindset that made everything possible. Where did that go?

A support group is a good thing as they give you perspective on reality- as your mind tends to distort your self perception and the world around you and make it difficult to see things for what they really are. It’s hard to see the world without distortions and delusions because it it always twisted to fit your ego. Meditation helped me but that’s another thread.

Although I’ve never been to an AA meeting I imagine they offer good support in place of a network of friends but I would be wary if the conversation and discussion is ONLY about addiction abuse simply because you are more than your “addictions” and what you really need are friends. really close soul bound friends. Friends that will be there for you regardless if you are a pot addict or not and friends who value your friendship who get as much knowing you as you them. Friends where you can just be the flawed person you are and have it be OK. Friends who will lend a supportive ear and tell you that you are full of shit and friends that respect you and you them. Friends, together that you can laugh off the drudges of living and make the unbearable bearable.

You build a life...it does not magically happen. I suppose you need to start building yours - same goes with friends. Big hug to you Mawg. You lured me out of the woodwork here. lol. You’re a pretty smart guy...isn’t it about time you figured what you want out of life? What kind of man you need to be?

Earl

 

[simcha]

I...
If it means something... when only getting buzzed after work/hammered on the weekends and cranking my stereo to worship dumbass rock n roll (and the requisite sex n drugs) in all its forms has meant anything after all these years...

...As I preview this post before posting, I see a couple more replies have come in. Simcha, I must have been stoned :tongue: - it didn't occur to me to look for a Marijuana Anonymous...

...And thanks to everyone thus far. Going back tonight. More to say later tonight or tomorrow.

LOL! Yeah, it took me years to get to a specific kind of meeting that really spoke to me after landing in Al-Anon. I'll still go to an occasional open AA meeting because it's the mothership program and has the most long-timers. It's nice to hear that there's hope, not a silver bullet, but hope.

And if you want to go to a really cool mostly gay AA meeting, there used to be one at First United Methodist Church on Broadway in Lakeview. I'll pm you with details on other places to find AA where you might find other gay people.

I never exclusively went to gay 12-Step meetings though, prefering to get a broad persective from meetings all over the area. You'll be amazed at how accepting the 12-step community is, I think...

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

You lured me out of the woodwork here.

And I'm glad he did, Mr. Logjam.

 

[bimale]

I can appreciate that you're trying to change your behaviors. But, anyone that I've known that has ever entered a 12-step program describes it more as a cult based on a religion that you may or may one agree with.

I live in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico and there is actually a GENERIC 12-step program available here! Can you stand it? I've been tempted to attend to complain about my addiction to getting upset over wilting tulips. What the hell is a generic 12-step program.

Dude...just kick it or enjoy it...it's only pot and I doubt that this is the reason you've had two career failures. Have you been watching the economy?

Regards.

 

[dannymawg]

Just wanted to say I'm still here and reading/absorbing. I also got a bunch of PMs in the last day and need to spend the short time I have tonight answering them.

Bur I can't let this comment go unanswered...

Dude...just kick it or enjoy it...it's only pot...

Dude, you think I don't know that? Did you read my OP or what I said on page two and digest that before replying? I already realize what the general perception of pot is, and what the standings of its addictive or non-addictive qualities are.

It's NOT a question of "just kick it or enjoy it". It's the interrelationship of beer, pot, and depression. Sorry to have to single you out, but this is exactly the type of comment that mirrors my old thought process, and it hasn't worked.



I can hear the gears turning out there, and some of you are thinking "pfft - there you go, the root cause is depression. Go get some Wellbutrin or Xanax or something. It helped [insert self or someone else here]."

BULLSHIT. Exactly what I'm talkin bout, replacing one crutch for another. I refuse to go on a pill (another silver bullet), PERIOD. Big Pharmaceuticals Inc. profits handsomely, and I want that profit. They can go pound fuckin sand.

Yeah, AA and other 12 steps are based on blind faith. But ignore that for a moment, and look at all the people I'm encountering who are happy (or at least stable) and engaged in life, rather than running away from it or numbing themselves. Where are they getting their happiness from? They are not bible beaters, and in fact I hear a whole lot of folks state their distaste for that aspect. The meeting tonight was fairly large (75 people maybe), and easily a third of them under 25 years old. As a beginner, after the open part of the meeting, I sat with them, and really heard their individual "higher power" alternatives. Through them, I saw that a 12 step meeting doesn't have to be a droll, downcast experience, and got word of a similar meeting to attend tomorrow.



The "alternative to God" thing has me thinking about seeking out one of those really badass lookin little bonsai trees. A mortal gave that little tree love and thought and patience to make them look so cool. Maybe I can park one somewhere where I can see it on a regular basis and draw from that. Which reminds me to say here before closing (and yeah I was gonna keep this short :tongue: )...

Thanks for the appearance, Earl. I miss ya.



Thanks again to all who have responded (or will respond) for the thought and support and profuse hug smilies :biggrin1:

D-mawg

 

[Phil Ayesho]

You HAVE to replace pot with SOMETHING.

You have used pot as a method for dealing with stresses for a long time, and have failed to develop alternative methods of dealing with those stressors.

It does not have to be Xanax... it might be Rock Climbing... it might be reading...

But you are going to have to examine your life from the point of view of what drives your toward pot as a solution... and examine whatever that may be from the perspective of coming up with EFFECTIVE alternatives.


In my experience... the people who succeed at getting off of any external crutch are the ones with the intellectual strength to fashion an artificial limb to replace the crutch.


Don't look at it as a personal problem... look at it as a procedural problem in brain chemistry and organization.

Get yourself into a mental space where you can essentially sit outside of yourself and observe your own behavior dispassionately.

Out-think it.

 

[Ethyl]

DM,

You've begun the most important journey to date. You and I have spoken about this subject somewhat already but I want to tell you something. Please forgive me if it sounds trite or condescending; that is not my intent at all. It's just that I have a very good idea from our talks just how huge this step was for you.

I'm very proud of you.

You know my support is a PM, email or phone call away. Lemme know when you need it.:hug:

 

[B_becominghorse]

You HAVE to replace pot with SOMETHING.

You have used pot as a method for dealing with stresses for a long time, and have failed to develop alternative methods of dealing with those stressors.

It does not have to be Xanax... it might be Rock Climbing... it might be reading...

But you are going to have to examine your life from the point of view of what drives your toward pot as a solution... and examine whatever that may be from the perspective of coming up with EFFECTIVE alternatives.


In my experience... the people who succeed at getting off of any external crutch are the ones with the intellectual strength to fashion an artificial limb to replace the crutch.


Don't look at it as a personal problem... look at it as a procedural problem in brain chemistry and organization.

Get yourself into a mental space where you can essentially sit outside of yourself and observe your own behavior dispassionately.

Out-think it.

This is very smart, and has to do with actually changing the life-style to make it really possible to stop on a prolonged and perhaps permanent basis. It needs to be something which will allow not continually thinking about the substance, which is an abstaining form of the addiction, one might say.

It's also important to remember that in the first stages of taking on a challenge, there is even a certain excitement and enthusiasm about the very stopping itself. THIS WILL GO--as it is already a kind of 'high' itself for awhile--and you are once again involved with the day-to-day, which is not exciting and is even often very boring. In other words, the stopping the substance abuse of whatever is still understood as necessary and desirable, but it is no longer especially 'inspiring' or even interesting, and has nothing whatever do with 'fun'; and yet those are the real test periods for getting anything accomplished. This is why I agree with Phil that other activities need to replace it--going to live performance of whatever sort, taking another sensual pleasure and becoming very enthusiastic about it such as dining out or cooking (I know alcoholics who have done this one in particular, and they even have held on to a certain form of their old habit without having to give it up completely by concentrating on wine cookery, in which only the flavour remains and the alcoholic content is gone). It is good to think of projects to give up destructive habits as on the same level as more obviously positive projects, whether artistic or personal or political, etc., so that they are both seen as forms of building something viable.

Such stoic and Spartan disciplines usually don't last for those who were already not very disciplined (or whatever they weren't) in terms of the addictive behaviour. And it's not a matter of proving how 'tough' one can be, but rather getting away from behaviour that is not doing one's life any good. If you're used to working this way with all kinds of habits, including thought habits, and many, many of them (breaking even good habits can be good practice, even if you find that you go back to them with a little variation on the old thing--this gets rid of the tendency to get rutted in something), it's easier to do on your own.

But if there are a number of things that seem to be detrimental to one's life, it's usually the practice to seek out support in institutions like AA, etc., if the problem seems insurmountable with only a few supportive close friends, a therapist, etc. Everybody deals with these things differently, and it perhaps is useful to realize that there all all sorts of destructive habits that would include almost everyone to some extent, not just substances. In other words, useful to think of habits and other addictions that are not specifically physical so that the real mental problem is addressed, because behind every physical addiction there is a mental addiction. I know AA has helped people I know, and they don't see any other alternative. It works if that is a kind of group you can believe in, and it won't if you don't. Frankly, LPSG is the only support group I've ever used, and sometimes it is surprisingly supportive, despite being full of various moments of meanness--but what isn't?

 

[B_cigarbabe]

Actually , I am a therapist and you need to re-read the post.
Gosh, Lady , You are such a negative and hateful person.
You really have problems.
Maybe you should get on some hormone therapy.
Or maybe Lithium.
Maybe you wouldn't be so bitter.
I wonder what you have been through that burned your soul and made you this way.
I feel bad for you and hope you can find the peace and tranquility that you desperately need.

If you were a therapist and could read you'd know that I am not bi-polar dipshit. You aren't now nor have you ever been a therapist that would require you to go to school and since you are now claiming to have a "head injury" as opposed to the back injury you came in here with I believe this is just another one of your inane fantasy's.
Bitter? Hardly I just despise liars of your ilk claiming to be something they clearly are not and giving possibly harmful advice under the guise of
claiming to be a therapist.
Besides who the hell would act depressed after they've gotten clean?
Only you.
Sorry for the disruption Danny.
cigarbabe:saevil:

 

[earllogjam]

Thanks for the appearance, Earl. I miss ya.

Miss ya too big guy. Nice pics BTW. You loose some lbs?

Your silence speaks volumes so I'm not gonna chime in here - again- because it's probably a pain in the ass to read some of these advice posts - so I'm just gonna say one thing and shut up - If you put a magnifying glass to the worst part of yourself that's all you begin to see and it becomes your world. The secret is to put the magnifying glass to the best part of yourself and let that become your world.

Corny huh?

 

[SandraSmithCarver]

I'm really hoping that I can pull some longtime, salient LPSG members out of the shadows to discuss this thread, and not have it degenerate into silliness or empty comment. I'd like to gather some of the third party objectivism(?) that I used to see floating around here when I first joined in '06.

Last night I went to my first ever AA meeting. I should have approached a Narcotics Anonymous meeting, as my problem is more with marijuana than with alcohol, but under the advice of my recently sought-out therapist, I needed to hit some sort of 12-step program while the idea was fresh in my head.

I know upon reading the above, there's a bunch of you out there that are thinking, "pot has no physical addictive qualities", and are poo-pooing any psychological addictions with "if it's such a problem for you, then just quit". Not that easy folks, when it first began as a tool to enhance my only real hobby of creating/listening to music, and then turned into a daily escape mechanism for the last 15 years as I experienced two career flameouts which I had little control over.

I went to the meeting last night at 7:30 pm, participated, and came home with the "Big Book", which I read in bed until 5:30 am today. And here is the crux of my problem:

Spirituality. Supposedly, I cannot make the decision that God exists or not - that the billions of Christians who get along with having a God infinitely outnumber me, and that I must believe in a higher power in order for the 12 steps to work.

But isn't this about me? That only I have the power to control myself? To look squarely at my addictions, choices, decisions, and realize no one has done anything about this or put me in this place other than me? Yeah, selfish, I know, it flies in the face of the unselfishness that has made AA so successful in people's lives...

Part of my problem that I didn't have the time to present in the meeting last night was that I deliberately scoff/shun Christianity or a omnipresent God, due to religious devisiveness that tore my family apart before I was even born - my father's family are teetotalling Presbyterians (in fact, my grandfather was a pastor of a prominent church and religious editor of a major newspaper for 20+ years), and my mother's family are your average blue collar Irish Catholics. Excepting my grandpa (who died a year before I was born), my father's family cut off all communication with my dad for years, to the point where I am not acquainted with the family with whom I share a surname with. And I hate the whole concept of guilt driven Catholicism, and throwing money at Vatican City through my local church. And then there's the clergy preying on little kids all these years...

At the advice of my therapist, I looked into other programs similar to the 12-step method, such as the SMART Recovery program - but something told me that the popularity of AA might be a better choice. I should also mention here that my mother's sister was a prominent member of our community, as a APN nurse in the alcoholic ward of our local hospital for almost 30 years. She passed away in '03, and I really wish she was still here with us now. Seeing the light in people's faces when I dropped her name in the meeting last night was heartening, especially in those faces of the oldtimers.

I obviously have some deep thinking to do - and this might be my swansong from LPSG, as I feel I have to disconnect myself from all the time-sinks that I associated with my use of the sweet leaf - music is included, which is really fucking scary, as it's one of the few outlets I have anymore.




Thanks in advance for your posts, and if anyone out there has any AA or other experience they feel comfortable sharing, please - do so. I'm attending another meeting tonight, and looking forward to reading/answering replies over the weekend.



D-mawg

first of all, most people feel just like you when they walk in to a 12 step meeting, it takes at least 6 meetings for you to feel comfiortable, and you dont have to beleive in anything right now, it just says to believe in something "bigger than yourself" what ever that may be, to find a God of your understanding, something "bigger than yourself" i. Im more spiritual, and beleive in Native American Spirituality, Angels , Spirit Guides, etc, but I was raised Catholic, and that sure didn't work for me, I read a lot of stuff, and found my own way, remember, the Big Book was written a long time ago, and i beleive most of the stories are by people that called them selves Christians. it takes awhile, keep going to the meetings, listen and learn and get a sponser!:wink:

 

[dannymawg]

You know my support is a PM, email or phone call away. Lemme know when you need it.:hug:

No offense to No_Strings, but I so wish I wasn't gay so I could chase you down and marry you.

I'll PM you and give you a ding a ling towards the weekend, C. :hug: < even harder back atcha.

Miss ya too big guy. Nice pics BTW. You loose some lbs?

[looks down at stomach] Huh? Lose weight? Fuck man, I need to gain weight. I've pushed 200 lbs before, but have usually bounced between 175-185 since high school. At 6'4", I think the word is "lanky". I have always wanted to be more "beefy".

Your silence speaks volumes so I'm not gonna chime in here - again- because it's probably a pain in the ass to read some of these advice posts...

The silence is me doing a lot of online research/reading, my usual 10/12 hours at my job, and going to these meetings... and reading these posts are hardly a PITA when I was asking for them, so no worries there.

If you put a magnifying glass to the worst part of yourself that's all you begin to see and it becomes your world. The secret is to put the magnifying glass to the best part of yourself and let that become your world.

Corny huh?

Yes :tongue:

Cuz it's still a secret. Where might one find the instruction manual on adjusting this "magnifying glass"

PM me please, Earl, if you can. I haven't sent any to you previous to this thread in respect of your taking a break from LPSG, and in thinking you might have your PMs shut off.



To those of you who have responded but haven't heard a reply from me yet here in the thread - I will write a big long fat post addressing all of you tomorrow night, after I run what I have so far past my IRL therapist.

Thanks much to all again,
D-mawg