Abortion arguments

GottaBigOne

Cherished Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2004
Posts
1,035
Media
13
Likes
255
Points
303
Age
42
Location
Dallas (Texas, United States)
Sexuality
99% Straight, 1% Gay
Gender
Male
Originally posted by Freddie53+Nov 1 2005, 02:55 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Freddie53 &#064; Nov 1 2005, 02:55 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Originally posted by Dr. Dilznick@Nov 1 2005, 08:26 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-Freddie53

And are you my new daddy who tells me what I can talk about and how I should talk. I hope so. Can&#39;t wait to start getting those child support payments in the mail. Me and the wife will have a grand time with the extra cash to send me to school to learn how to be more wimpy-lib just to bug dear old dad.

Maybe that scrawl passes for razor sharp wit at JesusFreak.com but you gonna have to step your game up to trade barbs with the King of Cuddling, cunt.
[post=357337]Quoted post[/post]​
First who in the hell gave you the authority to tell me what to write? Who made you god on this forum.
Second. I have no desire to step up the game to your low level of being the King of Cuddling, cunt. your words. You had no probem calling me Jesus Freak.

That is fine. I dont&#39; give a rat&#39;s ass what you think about me. If you were in the gutter and needed help, I would still help you. I do have character.

I don&#39;t think you will succeed in shutting me up. I will continue posting when I get good and ready and say what I damn well please.
[post=357357]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]

Freddie, why would you help him if he was in the gutter and needed help? Would you do the same to Osama Bin Laden? Helping those in need regardless of their evil only serves the evil, it rewards flaws.
 

lacsap1

Sexy Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2002
Posts
201
Media
2
Likes
32
Points
348
Age
46
Location
Amsterdam, Netherlands
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
Originally posted by Dr. Dilznick@Nov 1 2005, 08:09 AM
If this were true you would expect the suicide rate amongst children who are born via an accident to an unwed single, unprepared mother to be astronomical, and they just aren&#39;t. That&#39;s because most people, even in bad situations, recognize the value of their lives.
[post=357296]Quoted post[/post]​

Learn your numbers.......

Department of Health and Human Services
U.S. Public Health Service

The Surgeon General&#39;s Call To Action To Prevent Suicide.
Suicide is a serious public health problem. In 2001, the year for which the most recent statistics are available, suicide was the ninth leading cause of mortality in the United States, responsible for nearly 33,000 deaths. This number is more than 50% higher than the number of homicides in the United States in the same year (around 20,000 homicides in 1999). Many fail to realize that far more Americans die from suicide than from homicide. Each year in the United States, approximately 500,000 people require emergency room treatment as a result of attempted suicide. Suicidal behavior typically occurs in the presence of mental or substance abuse disorders—illnesses that impose their own direct suffering. Suicide is an enormous trauma for millions of Americans who experience the loss of someone close to them. The nation must address suicide as a significant public health problem and put into place national strategies to prevent the loss of life and the suffering suicide causes. A recent report by the World Health Organisation (WHO) states that nearly a million people take their own lives every year, more than those murdered or killed in war. WHO figures show a suicide takes place somewhere in the world every 40 seconds. Higher levels of social and national cohesion reduce suicide rates. Suicide levels are highest among the retired, unemployed, divorced, the childless, urbanites, empty nesters, and other people who live alone. Suicide rates also rise during times of economic uncertainty (although poverty is not a direct cause). Epidemiological studies generally show a relationship between suicide or suicidal behaviors and socio-economic disadvantage, including limited educational achievement, homelessness, unemployment, economic dependence and contact with the police or justice system.

Teenage Suicides:
Suicide is the third leading cause of death among teenagers in the US.
Boys complete suicide five times more often than girls.
Females attempt suicide more often than males.
Teenage suicide rate has tripled over the past two decades. The rates went from 4.1 per 100,000 in the 1950&#39;s to 12.5 per 100,000 in 1980 and 14.0 per 100,000 in 2001. Sixty-five hundred American teenagers complete suicide every year.
Nine out of ten suicide attempts take place in the home just before parents come home from work. Cluster suicides have increased.
About half of the suicide victims had been in trouble with the law or at school.
Almost half of the suicide victims were known to abuse alcohol or other drugs.

High-risk groups:
Youth 15-24, particularly males.
Gay and Lesbian Youth.
Native American Youth.
Alaskan Native Youth.
Youth with access to firearms.
Youth engaging in high-risk sexual or drug related behavior.
People who suffer from mental illness, especially bipolar disorder, major depression, borderline personality disorder, and schizophrenia.
People who have previously attempted suicide.
Victims of childhood sexual abuse.

Employment | Other UN Sites | Search | Suggestions | RSS | Privacy
© World Health Organization 2005. All rights reserved
 

D_Barbi_Queue

Account Disabled
Joined
Jul 15, 2004
Posts
2,102
Media
0
Likes
4
Points
258
Sexuality
No Response
Originally posted by lacsap1+Oct 31 2005, 06:08 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lacsap1 &#064; Oct 31 2005, 06:08 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-TexAssgirl@Oct 31 2005, 12:53 AM
Abstinance is 100%.  If you aren&#39;t prepared to live with the possible consequences of sex, then avoid it.
[post=356907]Quoted post[/post]​
There are already to many unwanted and unhappy people in this world.
[post=357188]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]

I was an unwanted pregnancy for my mother. She was unmarried. My grandmother tried to talk her into getting an abortion. She didn&#39;t, even though she was single and already a mother of two.

That was 30 years ago and my older brother and sister are now deceased. I&#39;m all that she has. Do you think she&#39;s happy that she decided not to go through with an abortion afterall?
 

GottaBigOne

Cherished Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2004
Posts
1,035
Media
13
Likes
255
Points
303
Age
42
Location
Dallas (Texas, United States)
Sexuality
99% Straight, 1% Gay
Gender
Male
Originally posted by TexAssgirl+Nov 2 2005, 02:32 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TexAssgirl &#064; Nov 2 2005, 02:32 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Originally posted by lacsap1@Oct 31 2005, 06:08 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-TexAssgirl
@Oct 31 2005, 12:53 AM
Abstinance is 100%. If you aren&#39;t prepared to live with the possible consequences of sex, then avoid it.
[post=356907]Quoted post[/post]​
There are already to many unwanted and unhappy people in this world.
[post=357188]Quoted post[/post]​

I was an unwanted pregnancy for my mother. She was unmarried. My grandmother tried to talk her into getting an abortion. She didn&#39;t, even though she was single and already a mother of two.

That was 30 years ago and my older brother and sister are now deceased. I&#39;m all that she has. Do you think she&#39;s happy that she decided not to go through with an abortion afterall?
[post=357503]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]
Texass, the point is that people don&#39;t have to deal with the natural consequences of a lot of things. Should people not take medicine, since they are then not dealing with the natural consequences of coming into contact with germs??? Should people not wear seat belkts since they are then not dealing with the natural consequences of traveling 65 mph and then smacking into a wall???

I was going to say something about that second point of yours but I realized that it would probably be very insensitive but I will say, that yes your mother is probably happy that she didn&#39;t abort you, but that does not mean that others would be too. Your mother made a retrospectively good choice, it wa her choice, other women should be free to make their own choices.
 

madame_zora

Sexy Member
Joined
May 5, 2004
Posts
9,608
Media
0
Likes
52
Points
258
Location
Ohio
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
As a woman, I am glad that my choices for a life include more options than either being married or single and celibate&#33; I will never accept that I must risk becoming a parent even though I don&#39;t want to be a wife&#33; We all KNOW that all forms of birth control have some small error rate, but to assert that anyone choosing to remain single must include parenthood as one of the options of being single is invasive of MY rights. Easy to say for someone who is married that abstinance is 100% effective. Obviously, I know that, I just don&#39;t see it as a viable option for the rest of my fertile years, and I resent the implication that I should. That is a personal opinion and I hope it never becomes a legal one.

I too was an accidental pregnancy. That fact alone doesn&#39;t give me the right to legislate other people&#39;s morals.
 

Love-it

Experimental Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2005
Posts
1,829
Media
0
Likes
17
Points
183
Age
34
Location
Northern California
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
Every anti-abortionist marcher should be given a premature, crack addicted baby. I wonder how many anti-abortionists would show up at the next march?

Anti-abortionist&#39;s are afraid that abortion may be retroactive.

Republicans should be pro-abortion because people with lower incomes may not be able to afford illegal abortions and will thus produce more Democrats.
 

Dr. Dilznick

Experimental Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Posts
1,640
Media
0
Likes
4
Points
183
Age
46
Sexuality
No Response
Originally posted by lacsap1+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lacsap1)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dr. Dilznick
If this were true you would expect the suicide rate amongst children who are born via an accident to an unwed single, unprepared mother to be astronomical, and they just aren&#39;t. That&#39;s because most people, even in bad situations, recognize the value of their lives.

Learn your numbers.......

Department of Health and Human Services
U.S. Public Health Service

The Surgeon General&#39;s Call To Action To Prevent Suicide.
Suicide is a serious public health problem. In 2001, the year for which the most recent statistics are available, suicide was the ninth leading cause of mortality in the United States, responsible for nearly 33,000 deaths. This number is more than 50% higher than the number of homicides in the United States in the same year (around 20,000 homicides in 1999). Many fail to realize that far more Americans die from suicide than from homicide. Each year in the United States, approximately 500,000 people require emergency room treatment as a result of attempted suicide. Suicidal behavior typically occurs in the presence of mental or substance abuse disorders—illnesses that impose their own direct suffering. Suicide is an enormous trauma for millions of Americans who experience the loss of someone close to them. The nation must address suicide as a significant public health problem and put into place national strategies to prevent the loss of life and the suffering suicide causes. A recent report by the World Health Organisation (WHO) states that nearly a million people take their own lives every year, more than those murdered or killed in war. WHO figures show a suicide takes place somewhere in the world every 40 seconds. Higher levels of social and national cohesion reduce suicide rates. Suicide levels are highest among the retired, unemployed, divorced, the childless, urbanites, empty nesters, and other people who live alone. Suicide rates also rise during times of economic uncertainty (although poverty is not a direct cause). Epidemiological studies generally show a relationship between suicide or suicidal behaviors and socio-economic disadvantage, including limited educational achievement, homelessness, unemployment, economic dependence and contact with the police or justice system.

Teenage Suicides:
Suicide is the third leading cause of death among teenagers in the US.
Boys complete suicide five times more often than girls.
Females attempt suicide more often than males.
Teenage suicide rate has tripled over the past two decades. The rates went from 4.1 per 100,000 in the 1950&#39;s to 12.5 per 100,000 in 1980 and 14.0 per 100,000 in 2001. Sixty-five hundred American teenagers complete suicide every year.
Nine out of ten suicide attempts take place in the home just before parents come home from work. Cluster suicides have increased.
About half of the suicide victims had been in trouble with the law or at school.
Almost half of the suicide victims were known to abuse alcohol or other drugs.

High-risk groups:
Youth 15-24, particularly males.
Gay and Lesbian Youth.
Native American Youth.
Alaskan Native Youth.
Youth with access to firearms.
Youth engaging in high-risk sexual or drug related behavior.
People who suffer from mental illness, especially bipolar disorder, major depression, borderline personality disorder, and schizophrenia.
People who have previously attempted suicide.
Victims of childhood sexual abuse.

Employment | Other UN Sites | Search | Suggestions | RSS | Privacy
© World Health Organization 2005. All rights reserved
[/b][/quote]
This does not contradict anything I said.

Reading comprehension. Try it.
 

Lex

Expert Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2004
Posts
8,253
Media
0
Likes
118
Points
268
Location
In Your Darkest Thoughts and Dreams
Sexuality
99% Gay, 1% Straight
Gender
Male
Abortion is one of those issues where rarely does anyone&#39;s opinion change, so what results is a non-stop game of one-upmanship where we try to tear each other&#39;s arguments down. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. The very nature of some of the statements here (cursing, judgemental generlaizations)and pro-/anti-arguments in general make it impossible to reach consensus (even if that means agreeing to disagree).

The problem, as stated over and over again, is choice. Limiting choices is almost always a bad idea--but I guess some men still get off on subjugating women and some women still accept it (whether grounded in religion or not). We (IMO) should consequent choices, but not eliminate them. This country was founde don the idea that choices shoulf be left to individuals--what God to workship (or none at all), whether to own a gun, who stays at my house, what I can say, read, print, write. I don&#39;t get what&#39;s so hard to understand about that.
 

Dr. Dilznick

Experimental Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Posts
1,640
Media
0
Likes
4
Points
183
Age
46
Sexuality
No Response
Originally posted by Lex
This country was founde don the idea that choices shoulf be left to individuals--what God to workship (or none at all), whether to own a gun, who stays at my house, what I can say, read, print, write. I don&#39;t get what&#39;s so hard to understand about that.
Our government was founded by a bunch of racist, crusty, cross-dressing Caucasians who had their personal best interests in mind in a time where slavery was humane and the world being round was only a "popular opinion." I could give a fuck less about what the government was founded on.


I don&#39;t get what&#39;s so hard to understand about that.
The "right" to have sex for pleasure and not accept responsibility for the possible consequences is a "right" that infringes upon the rights of others. I don&#39;t get what&#39;s so hard to understand about that. Even left-wing voices such as Dennis Kucinich have found Abortion one of the most difficult issues they&#39;ve ever had to wrestle with.

But yeah, let&#39;s agree to disagree.
 

D_Barbi_Queue

Account Disabled
Joined
Jul 15, 2004
Posts
2,102
Media
0
Likes
4
Points
258
Sexuality
No Response
Originally posted by GottaBigOne@Nov 2 2005, 01:15 AM
Texass, the point is that people don&#39;t have to deal with the natural consequences of a lot of things. Should people not take medicine, since they are then not dealing with the natural consequences of coming into contact with germs??? Should people not wear seat belkts since they are then not dealing with the natural consequences of traveling 65 mph and then smacking into a wall???

[post=357537]Quoted post[/post]​

But even by your own logic, people that don&#39;t take medicine or wear their seatbelts DO suffer the consequences of those choices so one can argue that you shouldn&#39;t have sex if you don&#39;t want to suffer the consequence of getting pregnant. Unless I&#39;m misunderstanding the point that you are trying to make.

I&#39;m for abortion on certain situations: incest, rape, endangering of the mother&#39;s life. I&#39;m also for the "morning-after" pill b/c it takes effect before the fetus even begins to develope. I&#39;m aware that birth control sometimes fails...believe me, I know. I once had a condom break on me, luckily I didn&#39;t get pregant. Even in those situations where the people attempt to prevent the pregnancy, I&#39;m a bit more forgiving. But even so, I can&#39;t help but still feel a little angered since it&#39;s so easy to "double up" on contraception (ie, the pill AND the condom, or spermicide, or foam, etc.). But it&#39;s mainly the people that take no precaution at all and get pregnant and therefor use the abortion as their sole means of contraception that I&#39;m not a fan of.
 

Freddie53

Superior Member
Gold
Joined
Nov 19, 2004
Posts
5,842
Media
0
Likes
2,611
Points
333
Location
Memphis (Tennessee, United States)
Gender
Male
Dr. Dilznick:

Our government was founded by a bunch of racist, crusty, cross-dressing Caucasians who had their personal best interests in mind in a time where slavery was humane and the world being round was only a "popular opinion." I could give a fuck less about what the government was founded on.

Freddie&#39;s comment:

Many in the norhern colonies wanted to outlaw slavery when the Constitutoin was written.

George Washington did inherit slaves. He didn&#39;t like slavery. He freed his slaves and provided for their care in their old age. The Washington Estate provided "social security" for each and every slave George Washington owned until the last one passed away. George Washington was in favor or outlawing slavery, which was an unusual postion for a man in the South in the 1780&#39;s.

Some of the big slave owners in south Louisiana were black. And they supported the Confederacy during the Civil War. Racism knows no color.

The government was founded upon FREEDOM for everyone. We were at the door of finaly achieving that after 200 years of progressing toward that goal. Then Bush was elected President. And you know the rest of the story.
 

Dr. Dilznick

Experimental Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Posts
1,640
Media
0
Likes
4
Points
183
Age
46
Sexuality
No Response
Originally posted by Freddie53
Many in the norhern colonies wanted to outlaw slavery when the Constitutoin was written.

George Washington did inherit slaves. He didn&#39;t like slavery. He freed his slaves and provided for their care in their old age. The Washington Estate provided "social security" for each and every slave George Washington owned until the last one passed away. George Washington was in favor or outlawing slavery, which was an unusual postion for a man in the South in the 1780&#39;s.

Some of the big slave owners in south Louisiana were black. And they supported the Confederacy during the Civil War. Racism knows no color.

The government was founded upon FREEDOM for everyone. We were at the door of finaly achieving that after 200 years of progressing toward that goal. Then Bush was elected President. And you know the rest of the story.
Believe what you will.

I just thought Lex using what our government was "founded on" as justification was weak. Just about every government is founded for *gasp* "noble" reasons. That doesn&#39;t justify everything that happens as a result. "Founded on" holds no weight. Manifest Destiny was another gem that this country was "founded on."
 

Lex

Expert Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2004
Posts
8,253
Media
0
Likes
118
Points
268
Location
In Your Darkest Thoughts and Dreams
Sexuality
99% Gay, 1% Straight
Gender
Male
I should clarify and say that one of the things that has withstood the tests of time is the that America is a nation where people have the freedom of individual choice. I franky don&#39;t support any legal measures that restrict choice as I see them as wastes of time and resources. Why legislate things you can&#39;t control. Again--legally limiting choices does not stop certain choices from being chosen. It just makes and creates an underground market for those choices.

Dilznick--I like the idea of agreeing to disagree.
 

KidBrown

Experimental Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2005
Posts
237
Media
0
Likes
3
Points
163
Age
34
Location
P.G.C Maryland
Sexuality
99% Straight, 1% Gay
Gender
Male
It&#39;s very hard for someone like me to chime in on this issue because I&#39;m never going to become pregnant. Plus, I won&#39;t have to go through the emotional and physical stress associated with carrying a baby. However, I find the rate of abortion to be disgusting in this country. There is no way this many women should be getting pregnant by accident if they used proper protection. The odds of an unplanned pregnancy when a man properly uses a condom and a woman is on birth control are virtually nil. I use condoms with spermicide, my girlfriend is on birth control and uses spermicidal foam as well. Explain to me a possible scenario where she will become pregnant, I don&#39;t see how it&#39;s really possible. Gee, the time it takes to make sure that our sex life is safe might take two minutes tops.

It makes me sick to my stomach when I have friends that have abortions. The most common scenarios I&#39;ve heard is "I was drunk" or "the condom broke". Great excuses for killing a baby.......

I simply love it when women say "I have a right to do whatever I want with my body". Oh yeah? Umm, you can&#39;t prostitute yourself in most of the U.S. so that&#39;s one area where you can&#39;t choose. You can&#39;t inject drugs into your body either, so there&#39;s another example of women not being able to choose. A woman can&#39;t fight in the front lines of a war, example number three. Trying to kill yourself? Sorry, that&#39;s illegal too.

I cannot say that in cases of rape or incest that abortion should be illegal. But most cases of abortion must be caused by simple negligence. People should have to live with their mistakes, why should a potential life be snuffed out because it&#39;s not easy for a woman to carry a baby for nine months? That&#39;s what you deal with when you don&#39;t take the two fucking minutes to protect yourself. The main issue that bothers me is the adoption system in this country. I feel that many more women would put their kids up for adoption if the process weren&#39;t so screwed up.
 

Lex

Expert Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2004
Posts
8,253
Media
0
Likes
118
Points
268
Location
In Your Darkest Thoughts and Dreams
Sexuality
99% Gay, 1% Straight
Gender
Male
The craziness of it is that making them illegal kills MORE poeple. I know no one wants to (or cares to) hear it--but you have to give choices to people. During his Presidency, former President Carter found that the majority of women who had abortions did so becasue they could not afford more children, so his alternative (to abortion) was the creation of WIC. If you are against it (which Carter is/was) then give people alternates.

Statistics old that the number of deaths per 100,000 legal abortion procedures declined five-fold between 1973 and 1991. No because abortions became more prevalent, but because people who formerly had to get illegal, unsafe medical procedures had legal and safe recourse.
 

KidBrown

Experimental Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2005
Posts
237
Media
0
Likes
3
Points
163
Age
34
Location
P.G.C Maryland
Sexuality
99% Straight, 1% Gay
Gender
Male
I understand what you&#39;re saying Lex, and yes....I agree that it wouldn&#39;t be sensible to outlaw abortions outright. However, the vast majority of abortions could be avoided if people just practiced safe sex. That&#39;s what bothers me to no end.

I think there should also be some record of when a woman has an abortion. Two of my friends have had more than one abortion already, and they aren&#39;t even 25 yet. I&#39;m not trying to judge them, but at what point do people realize that abortion isn&#39;t birth control? Do you think there should be some sort of legal limit to the amount of abortions a woman can have?