Abortion arguments

Dr. Dilznick

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Originally posted by GottaBigOne

What do you mean by value? WHen you ask what is of value you must first ask of value to whom? The ultimate value of man is his life, life is his ultimate value. If we must value our lives, then we ought to try to attain those things which are conducive to life. If we don't then we are pursuing death, yes "anti-life".

In order to illustrate this point: I'm not that good at it I will repost something found on another forum I frequent. (Yes, there not my words, but that does not mean i am appealing to authority, it means that it better explains my point than I can do for myself, it seems)


"
So let's start with values. In the broadest sense, a value is something an entity acts to gain or keep. A value isn't a primary -- it's not given directly in perception. There aren't entities called "values." To grasp that something is a value, we have to see it as a value to something for something. This is what Rand means when she says that the concept 'Value' " "presupposes an answer to the question: of value to whom and for what?" (VOS 16). She is saying that for us to see something as a value, we have to see it as something an entity is acting to achieve, and moreover, we have to see the achievement of that thing as making a difference to the entity.

You can validate this point rather easily. Think of anything it makes sense to call a value: money, food, sex, whatever. The reason you can understand those things as values is because you can see that whether or not the entity acting to gain them actually gains them makes some difference to that entity. This is what Ayn Rand means when she says the concept 'Value' "presupposes an entity capable of acting to achieve a goal in the face of an alternative" (VOS 16). An "alternative" means "a difference."

So what does it mean to say that the achievement of some goal (or failure to achieve that goal) makes a difference to the acting entity? Let's take the value "money." What difference does it make to a man if he gets money? Well, if he doesn't get money, he can't buy food. So what? What does it matter to him whether or not he gets food? What difference does it make to him?

Do you see the pattern that's developing? To grasp that something is a value, we have to see it as the means to obtaining some higher value. But there's a problem: if something is a value only if it is the means to obtaining some higher value, then don't we have an infinite regress (or, more precisely, an ultimate progress?)? Doesn't there have to be some ultimate value to which all other values are a means, and which is not itself a means to any higher value? The answer, of course, is yes.

"Without an ultimate goal or end, there can be no lesser goals or means: a series of means going off into an infinite progression toward a nonexistent end is a metaphysical and epistemological impossbility. It is only an ultimate goal, an end in itself, that makes the existence of values possible" (VOS 17-18).

To sum up, then, in order for there to be such things as values, there must be some ultimate value: a value to which all lesser values are a means, and which itself is not a means to any higher value. Is there such a thing?

Let's go back to our previous example. We can see that money is a value because, among other things, if I don't have money, I can't buy food. So what? What difference does it make to me whether or not I get food? Well, if I don't food, I will no longer be alive. So what? What difference does it make to me whether or not I'm alive?

Obviously, it makes every difference to me whether or not I'm alive. If I'm not alive, there is no me. Or, to put it another way, for any other value, whether or not I achieve it determines what state I'm in...but whether or not I'm alive determines whether I'm in any state at all. "Alive or dead" is different from every other alternative: it is a fundamental alternative. It is the only fundamental alternative. All other alternatives exist only in light of the basic alternative of life or death.

Life, therefore, meets the criteria of an ultimate value. All lesser values are a means to it, and it is not a means to any higher value. "It is only the concept 'Life' that makes the concept of 'Value' possible. It is only to a living entity that things can be good or evil" (VOS 16)."



Some Problems with Ayn Rand's Derivation of Ought from Is

[I posted this to humanities.philosophy.objectivism about November of 1996.]



For the past month or two, I have been arguing that Rand's drivation of oughts, if consistently applied, leads to conclusions that few Objectivists would accept, and that Objectivists should therefor reexamine its logic with a more critical eye. That discussion seems to have died down at this point. The purpose of this post is to attack Rand's argument from the other end--by going back to the beginning and seeing what is wrong with it. My source is the version of the argument provided in Galt's speech.



---
1. Existence as the value sought by living things:

"There is only one fundamental alternative in the universe: existence or non-existence--and it pertains to a single class of entities: to living organisms. ... But a plant has no choice of action; ... : it acts automatically to further its life, it cannot act for its own destruction.

An animal ... . But so long as it lives, ... it is unable to ignore its own good, unable to decide to choose the evil and act as its own destroyer."

The claim here, quite clearly, is that living things other than human beings automatically act for their own survival. That claim is false. A male mantis, for example, mates, even though the final step of the process consists of being eaten by the female. Female mammals get pregnant, even though (especially in species where the male does not help support female and offspring) doing so substantially reduces their chances of survival. If one is going to ascribe values to non-human living things, the purpose of those values, on both empirical and theoretical grounds, is not survival but reproductive success.

Of course, survival is usually a means to reproductive success, so most living things most of the time are trying to survive. But a living being that put survival above everything else would not reproduce, so its descendants wouldn't be around for Rand to use as evidence in deriving oughts.

Some philosophies, I suppose, could dismiss all of this as irrelevant to metaphysical argument. But Objectivism claims to base its conclusions on the facts of reality--and the "fact" with which Rand starts her argument is false.


2. Life or death as the fundamental value choice:

"Since life requires a specific course of action, any other course will destroy it. A being who does not hold his own life as the motive and goal of his actions, is acting on the motive and standard of death."

Consider someone following a value other than Rand's--a utilitarian, say, or a nationalist. His life is not the motive and goal of his actions, but it is usually a means to the achievement of his goal. If he isn't alive, he can't have utility himself, nor can he act to increase the utility of others--and similarly if his goal is the triumph of his nation. So such people usually take the actions required by their own survival. But their life is not their goal, as becomes apparent when they have an opportunity to achieve their goal at the cost of their life--assassinate Hitler, say, with the knowledge that they will die in the process.

The first sentence quoted above is false. It is not true that there is a specific course of action required for life and any other course will destroy it. There are a great many different courses of action which preserve life with varying degrees of success. Rand's statement, taken literally, is contradicted by the facts of reality. If such people were acting on the motive and standard of death they would commit suicide at the first convenient opportunity, and there would be nobody but Objectivists left. That hasn't happened.

A more charitable interpretation is that Rand means that if you do not take your life as your goal, you are choosing a little death--a slightly higher probability of death, a somewhat shorter life expectancy. That is a true statement, but the equivalent is equally true for any value one might propose. The utilitarian could argue that a non-utilitarian, by not acting in the way that maximizes human happiness, is choosing a little misery. A utilitarian Galt could go on to assert that "A being who does not hold the happiness of all men as the motive and goal of his actions, is acting on the motive and standard of human misery." His argument would be as good--which is to say as bad--as Rand's.


3. The shift from life to life as man qua man:

"Man's life is the standard of morality, but your life is its purpose. If existence on earth is your goal, you must choose your actions and values by the standard of that which is proper to man--for the purpose of preserving, fulfilling and enjoying the irreplaceable value which is your life."

(this passage actually precedes the one I quoted just above, but is relevant to the next point I want to make)



This seems fairly clear. My life is the purpose of my morality, and the reason that I must choose a certain sort of morality is that that sort of morality is the best way of preserving, fulfilling and enjoying my life. The only puzzle is where "fulfilling and enjoying" come from, given that the previous step hinged on the choice of existence or non-existence. By the logic so far, "fulfilling and enjoying" belong in the argument only as means to the goal of preserving.

This is the point where the argument I introduced a month or so back takes off from. "Your life" means what it says, so if I can show that your physical survival is enhanced by an act then, according to the argument up to this point, you should do it. A means cannot trump the end it is a means to.

"No, you do not have to live as a man ... . But you cannot live as anything else--and the alternative is ... the state of a thing unfit for existence, no longer human and less than animal, a thing that knows nothing but pain and drags itself through its span of years in the agony of unthinking self-destruction."

At this point, Rand is using passionate oratory to obscure a shift in the argument. She is claiming that someone who lives a full lifespan "in the agony of unthinking self-destruction" isn't really acting for his life. But the fact that he lives a full span of life is evidence that he is not in fact destroying himself. Somehow, something extra has been slipped into the argument, to convert "life" into "the kind of life Rand thinks you should live," where the latter is not deducible from the former.


4. The shift from surviving by reason to Objectivist ethics:

"Honesty is the recognition of the fact that the unreal is unreal and can have no value, that neither love nor fame nor cash is a value if obtained by fraud--that an attempt to gain a value by deceiving the mind of others is an act of raising your victims to a position higher than reality, where you become a pawn of their blindness, a slave of their non-thinking and their evasions, while their intelligence, their rationality, become the enemies you have to dread and flee ... ."

According to Rand, values are things you act to get and keep; in that sense cash obtained by fraud is obviously a value for some people. If we interpret "value" in this passage as meaning "value for your life," hence "value of the sort Rand is arguing you should seek," it is still puzzling. Money obtained by fraud will pay for just as much food or medical service as money obtained honestly.

The rest of the quoted passage is a highly colored exposition of a true point--that if you defraud people, you have to worry about being detected. The problem is that Rand is drawing an absolute conclusion that her argument does not justify. Different opportunities to defraud people have different risks of detection, and victims vary in their ability to retaliate against fraud if they detect it. So the implication of the argument is not that one should always be honest, but that one should be prudent in one's dishonesty--which is not, of course, the result Rand wants.

"To interpose the threat of physical destruction between a man and his perception of reality, is to negate and paralyze his means of survival; to force him to act against his own judgement, is like forcing him to act against his own sight. Whoever, to whatever purpose or extent, initiates the use of force, is a killer acting on the premise of death ... .

To force a man to drop his own mind and to accept your will as a substitute, with a gun ... is to attempt to exist in defiance of reality."

Using force against someone reduces his ability to use his reason to preserve his life. Reality implies that the victim is less likely to have a long and healthy life. But the coercer is not trying to defy that reality--his objective is not his victim's life but his own.

---



I have pointed out what appear to me to be gaping holes in the chain of reasoning by which Rand starts with the facts of reality and ends with a specific set of ethical prescriptions banning force or fraud. I await responses from those who believe that Rand's argument is correct. I am not, for the moment, interested in the broader question of whether there is some other way of accomplishing what she claims to accomplish--deriving oughts from the nature of reality.



David Friedman

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Libertarian/...ht_From_Is.html
 

GottaBigOne

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Dude, I'm not going to argue objectivism with you. If one can not grasp the concepts of objectivism without totally misunderstanding it then thats not my problem to walk you one through it. A lot of what that quote is about is actually false assumption about rand's meaning which she actually adresses while making her arguments because she knows how they might be misinterpreted. If the author o f said article had actually given much thought and attention to them then he would know this. I suspect that you havent read about objectivism yourself and simply take this guys word for it that it is flawed, and accpet his straw man as an accurate representation of objectivism. If you have actually read it, then I'm sorry for assuming you didn't, but it really seems that way. This thread was not opened with the intention of discussing the entirity of objectivism, only its aplication in the case of abortion and specifically the arguments posed in the attached article.

By the way, out of curiosity, what is your philosophy??
 

Freddie53

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GottaBigOne &#064; Nov 7 2005, 05&#58;10 AM) [post=358844]Quoted post[/post]</div><div class='quotemain'>
yes freddie, that last part was directed at Dr. Dilnick, not you bro. I thought you&#39;d have more faith in me as well then to automatically assume i would do that to you. You&#39;re one of the people i most respect on this board, and I get nothing but enjoyment from our discussions. I&#39;m sorry about the typo, as you have probably noticed most of my posts are fraught with them as I have gotten a new keyboard and am still getting used it, i type without looking at the screen, and my fingers sometimes move quicker than my train of thought. I&#39;m actually pretty offended that you think i would do that to you. You are not below dilznick in my book, don&#39;t ever think you are.

I&#39;m sorry for the misunderstanding, i will try to be more lcear about who i am addressing in future posts.
[/b][/quote]

Gotabigone,

I look at misunderstandings such as this as opportunities to make relationships stronger or cause them to fade away as they really weren&#39;t that strong to start with.

And I apologize that my response might hurt you feelings as well. But in the end, it worked out perfectly. We both needed to affirm our mutual respect. We don&#39;t do this in this life enough. I won&#39;t remember the typo. I accept it for what it was. I should have read it closely and would have known. It is history. But your statement that I am one of the most respected people on this board, I will remember as long as I live. And I respect you greatly. You are one of the best thinkers here as well as writers.

So it worked out great in the end. How things are resolved are what really matter.

It is about time that I call you what you are. BROTHER&#33;

I am an emotional person and very affectionate. I recognize that.

Love you brother,
Please accept this big internet hug from me.

Freddie
 

Dr. Dilznick

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Originally posted by GottaBigOne

Dude, I&#39;m not going to argue objectivism with you. If one can not grasp the concepts of objectivism without totally misunderstanding it then thats not my problem to walk you one through it. A lot of what that quote is about is actually false assumption about rand&#39;s meaning which she actually adresses while making her arguments because she knows how they might be misinterpreted.
She doesn&#39;t address any of it. That&#39;s the point. There are hardly any philosophers who take Rand seriously. Rational people know that we do judge the morality of actions based on "facts" even if being strict with logic, it is impossible to derive an ethical imperative from purely factual statements. Einstein got it, Hume got it, Rand did *not* get it. What is, what&#39;s known, and what&#39;s factual does not explicitly imply what should, what shouldn&#39;t, or what ought to be.
 

Matthew

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I don&#39;t relate to objectivism as an ideology (or capitalism as a system, for that matter). Also, I think that ethical systems are always based on more than logic. My support for women&#39;s right to abortion comes from 1) my belief in individual rights, 2) my belief that fetuses are not the same as babies, and 3) the fact that women are still overwhelmingly responsible for the care of children. Thus, women can&#39;t fully participate in society if they can&#39;t have control over if and when they are going to have children. I can support all of those points with logic, but the first two especially have to do with personal values which, the final analysis, extend outside the realm of logic.
 

JustAsking

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Gotta,
That was a very interesting article. I started to write on each point, but realized that it would be easier to test these assertions about abortion with an extreme test case. So...

A married woman has sex with her husband as they both plan to have a child. She gets pregnant and carries the baby to the point where her contractions begin. During her labor she decides that she really doesn't want to raise a child after all. According to the principles on that Capitalism piece on abortion, she is perfectly in her rights to have the unborn child killed and then aborted.

Question 1: Do you see anyplace in those principles where her actions are not supported?

Question 2: Are you ok with her carrying out her decision?

JustAsking
 

D_Barbi_Queue

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That's a point that I made early on too (page 2), but it got completely overlooked. Hopefully yours will get recognized b/c I'm still interested in the answer.
 

Paul Vincent

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My view/s:

If the circumstances (financial, relationship, health-wise) aren't right then the girl should, in my opinion have an abortion. Of course it should be her choice. The impregnator (male) should have some input also.

I would hope the girl decides whether or not she wants the baby prior to the contractions, ideally between 1-20 weeks...

Forcing a girl to have a baby she doesn't want is good for no one. The girl will probably resent her child, and have all sorts of psychological problems stemming from it, since having a baby isn't like squeezing a shit out.
 

JustAsking

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Tex,
Sorry, I didnt read all the posts after I read the article. I was compelled to just start firing away. So yes, I see you made this point quite clearly. Lets see if we get an answer. In the meantime, I should probably catch up with the rest of the replies.

Paul,
Naturally there are better situations than the one I mentioned. My scenario was chosen as an extreme case that was still allowed by the principles in the article. By doing this, its easier to see if one thinks the principles are sufficient guidance to make a decision about abortion.

Also, I dont find your reasons sufficient to murder a child. Any of the bad conditions (except the childbirth itself) you mention could arise when the child is already born, too. Would you advocate kiling the child then? At what age would you stop advocating that?

JustAsking
 

curious n str8

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TexAssgirl said:
Personally, I'm against abortions to an extent (I won't go into all the details) but I'm also against them being outlawed. Basically I loath the use of abortion for purposes of birthcontrol. Contraception is easy to get and easy to use.

On the otherhand, I'm one of those freaks that is for capital punishment, but only if the person has also taken someone else's life. My thoughts are that the killer made the decision on his/her own when they killed their victim. Stupid logic perhaps, but that's my take on the difference between abortion and capital punishment.
I pretty much agree with TAG here and like to add captial punishment should also pertain to someone who has thoughly damaged many ppl's lives due to there wanton greed for self gratfactions such as rape and phyical abuse.
 

GottaBigOne

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I believe based on the assertions in the article that if the baby would be a viable living being outside the womb, i.e. if it could survive if taken out of the womb would qualify it as a right bearing human being and thus killing it would be immoral.
 

JustAsking

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GBO,
I sympathize with your sentiments, but Capitalism.com is pretty clear about this. It asserts that a fetus has absolutely no rights, therefore it can be aborted at anytime at the whim of the mother. To wit:

"A fetus has no rights, as it does not need freedom to take any actions, but survives on the sustenance of its host."

and:

"A new born child, unlike a fetus, is a physically separate entity."

As defense counsel in the Case of the Aborting Mother, I maintain that my client was well within the law of Capitalism.com to have the fetus killed at the beginning of labor having concluded that raising it would be inconvenient. As stipulated by law, her reasons were sufficient once she declared, "I am not a breeding pig."

If it pleases the Court, we maintain that the organic material in question fulfilled the following Capitialism.com definition of a fetus at the moment of death:

- The fetus did not need freedom to take any actions.
- The fetus was surviving solely on the sustenance of the host.
- The fetus was "waiting for itself to develop" using the sustenance of the host.(1)
- The fetus was not a physically separate entity.
- The fetus was "part of the woman."
- The fetus's conceptual ability was not fully developed.

We further argue that since the fetus falls under the Capitalism.com defining criteria it has no rights. Therefore the right of my client to terminate the life of the fetus was "inalienable" since it did not conflict with the rights of another human being.

In summation, we would like to say that any one who advocates that this was a criminal act is an enemy of individual rights, and thus of capitalism.

What say the prosecution?

JustAsking

(1) Prosecution has argued that at the beginning of labor the fetus is waiting to be delivered rather than waiting for itself to develop. We cite as prededent the case of the State vs K. Johnson where K. Johnson called for the termination of the fetus and its subsequent abortion because she felt that raising a child would interfere with her tennis lessons. It was ruled that regardless of the anticipation of birth, the fetus was still waiting for itself to develop and still under the sustenance of the host. Furthermore, at the start of labor it is not yet obvious if the labor is genuine or what is termed "false labor" after which the fetus continues to merely wait for itself to develop. The court ruled therefore, that the beginning of labor is not a signal moment that changes the status of the fetus to a human being.
 

GottaBigOne

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I can see your point. I think the point is that in capitalisms view (and I have to think about it more) the fetus being fully developed in the womb still needs the mother's permission in order to be delivered, it doesn't have the right to demand being born as it is not yet nondependant on the wishes of the mother for her body. But children are also dependant on parents and should be taken care of, if the parents so choose. If a mother chooses to make the commitment of rearing a child and then later decides not to, she has no right to kill the child, but to give it up to someone else for care. The fact that other has made a choice, binds her to ensuring her child's wellbeing. I would say that if you havent made the choice of abortion before you start to deliver, then you have made the choice to carry the baby fully, and a change of mind at that point would be immoral, highly immoral, but nonetheless, legal. This point i am still iffy on, and have to do more thinking. Abortion in the early stages is more black and white with me. Its hard to think about late term abortion without getting emotional because we often think of infants as human beings. But what really is a human being? Infants are hardly conscious, if you count consciousness as being aware of entities in the world. Infants don't see objects when born, although there may be an innate sense of "faces". But then again, it may just be an innate sense of moving objects. Sense of objects doesn't mean indentification of such objects (ironically, an infants perception would probably be equal to that of terri schiavo). My point is not to say that infants should be killed, they need not be if the mother does not want to take care of it. Point in fact: me. I was adopted at birth, and i am glad that i was. My point about infants though is this: I was not me until i had developed the faculty of thought, conceptual thought. When i had developed a sense of the world, and my place in it, i had developed into "me",i.e. a human being. I was not me, before this stage of development, and I was definately not me in the womb. In those stages, the potential for me was present, but if i had been aborted, i would not have been killed, merely i would never have existed, which is fine with me. Its like having my corpse fucked in the ass after death. I am not going to be present so I don't care. I am not my body, i am my consciousness. My body belongs to my consciousness, thats why i refer to my mind as "me", and my body as "my" body. I type with my fingers, not me. I fuck with my cock, not me. (although fucking is an expression from me through my body, it is not just with my cock, i use that to make a point) I eat my my mouth, teeth, tongue, and stomach, not with me. All of these actions are myself using the faculties of my body. If you cut off my arm, you are not cutting a part of me off, you are cutting a part of my body off, you are essentially stealing from "me". If you cut my heart out, since it sustains my brain, which sustains my consciousness, then you are stealing "me" from "me", as my consciousness is a result of my physical brain, and if you damage my brain then you damage my consciousness. This is also why we see major presonality shifts in people who have labotomies, or other types of brain damage. But if my personality, or my consciousness hasn't yet developed, damaging my brain does not damage "me" as "I" have not yet developed.

I know there will be more discussion on these points, but I hope I have stately them clear enough, but I anticipate some misunderstanding. I will try to illuminate them better, when i get some questions and or arguments. Please remember to be civil.
 

madame_zora

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Some time ago, somewhere (in a land far far away) Dilznick posted a treatise on Jewish law and beliefs that stated that Jewish law didn't recognise a baby as a person until 30 days AFTER it's birth. It may have even been in this thread, I don't remember. If that's true, one of the largest world religions would not have a query about this issue at all.

Personally, I find late-term abortion to be morally repugnant and would never consider doing it, but GBO makes a good point that the infant/fetus would really have no knowledge of what was happening. Stillborn fetuses do not rue their own deaths, as far as we know. In fact, the concept of "rueing" is unknown to them. What we attribute to "human consciousness" is what we feel separates us from other living species, which is why we can kill animals and not feel guilty of murder, when in fact they are far more aware of being killed than a fetus is.

I won't defend or support Capitalism.org because I don't believe it accurately depicts Rand's views in every aspect and it certainly doesn't reveal my own. It is a good read to get a rudimentary grasp of Objectivism, but Rand would be the first one to encourage each person to do their own research before arriving at a conclusion. She would also tell you you were wrong if you arrived at one that differed from hers, but I do admire her tenacity.

GBO, what you are referring to as "consciousness", Christians would call their soul. Some would call it Karma or kismet, but it all amounts to the same thing- that which our body houses that is the sum of our essence. People who lose body parts are still the same person, because that personhood develops in the mind- emotional, intellectual and viable. Until a body can be said to have developed this aspect, "personhood" would be difficult to argue for in any arena other than fantasy. Some like to say and believe that we are "born with knowledge", but I disagree. We are born without physical control of even our bodily functioning and in fact require training even to learn to walk and use the toilet. We are also taught our conceptualisation of God and the world we live in, it is not innate.

I am a human being. I cannot separate my morality from my personhood, nor would I want to. For me, once a fetus is developed enough to sustain it's own life, the mother has had plenty of time to decide it's fate. If six months isn't enough time, she should have to deliver it, if the doctor feels is it viable to live on it's own, in my humble opinion. The only exception I could think of might be a young girl or mentally challenged girl who was molested or raped who doesn't really understand preganacy or perhaps finds out very late what is happening. I met such a girl once who was 12 years old and pregnant by her father. He had told her she was carrying the Lord's child and she honestly knew no different. She should be able to have an abortion on the deilvery table, once again IMHO.
 

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madame_zora said:
Some time ago, somewhere (in a land far far away) Dilznick posted a treatise on Jewish law and beliefs that stated that Jewish law didn't recognise a baby as a person until 30 days AFTER it's birth. It may have even been in this thread, I don't remember. If that's true, one of the largest world religions would not have a query about this issue at all.

What we attribute to "human consciousness" is what we feel separates us from other living species, which is why we can kill animals and not feel guilty of murder, when in fact they are far more aware of being killed than a fetus is.


GBO, what you are referring to as "consciousness", Christians would call their soul. Some would call it Karma or kismet, but it all amounts to the same thing- that which our body houses that is the sum of our essence. People who lose body parts are still the same person, because that personhood develops in the mind- emotional, intellectual and viable. Until a body can be said to have developed this aspect, "personhood" would be difficult to argue for in any arena other than fantasy. Some like to say and believe that we are "born with knowledge", but I disagree. We are born without physical control of even our bodily functioning and in fact require training even to learn to walk and use the toilet. We are also taught our conceptualisation of God and the world we live in, it is not innate.

IMHO.

Jana, you are right. I do remember that quote above. I don't know which thread. But this new system has all the posts ever posted by forum member. It can be found.

The New Testament does not refute the Jewish belief. And the New Testament doesnt condemn abortion and we know that ancient Jews practiced abortion and abortoin was routine until around 1900 when states started outlawing it. Abortoins were still being done illegally.

Therefore, there is no tradition, teaching, or reading from either the Old or New Testament that can be used by Christianity to cndemn abortions until the early 1900's. It is hard to make any case that abortions shold be banned on a legal or Jewish or Christian historical beliefs. A constitutional amendment would have to be added to legally ban abortions. That is, if you follow the letter and spirit of the Constitution and not the preaching of the religious right and their twisting of history.
 

Dr. Dilznick

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madame_zora said:
Some time ago, somewhere (in a land far far away) Dilznick posted a treatise on Jewish law and beliefs that stated that Jewish law didn't recognise a baby as a person until 30 days AFTER it's birth.
I didn't. You must have confused me with someone else.

And Capitalism.org has nothing to do with capitalism. Randroid.org would be a better name.
 

GottaBigOne

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Thanks madam, for understanding my points and elaborating. I was really getting nervous that I was getting bad at getting myself across.

And yes, Capitalism.org, is not an extensive overview of objectivism. I really think its an attempt to get those arguments across in the simplest way, which confuses the issue, because philosophy isn't easy for most people.
 

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No, I found it Dilznick, it was you.

edit- I KNOW that Capitalism.org has nothing to do with capitalism, which is why I said it was a good overview of Objectivism.


Dr. Dilznick said:
Myth: The Bible forbids abortion.

Fact: All Biblical arguments on abortion are indirect and open to debate



Summary

The Bible does not comment directly on abortion, even though abortion was practiced even then. All Biblical arguments on abortion are indirect and open to interpretation, and debate continues even among the world's most respected theologians. Even so, the Bible seems to suggest in several places that the unborn are not endowed with the qualities or rights of personhood. In fact, the Jews, who are famous for their preservation of tradition, have never considered abortion to be a sin.


Argument

Many Christians believe that their opposition to abortion is firmly supported by the Bible. This is untrue. The Bible is remarkably silent about abortion, and all arguments about the subject are indirect and highly questionable. Not even the world's most respected theologians have been able to draw a firm conclusion one way or the other, despite continuing debate.

Most Christians know only one Biblical reason to oppose abortion, and that is the obvious one, "Thou shalt not kill." This is one of the most critical laws a society can obey, and every pro-choice advocate agrees with it. However, it is impossible to break this commandment if there is no person on the receiving end of this action. The challenge to Christians is to find a text that declares at what point a fetus becomes ensouled, and hence a person.

Before we look at these texts, we should consider a quick attempt by Christians to sidestep this entire question. Personhood is irrelevant, they argue; even if the zygote were not yet a person, it is nonetheless human life, and killing it is wrong. But this argument falls easily. The Hebrew word for "kill" in the 6th Commandment is rasach, which more accurately means "murder," or illegal killing judged harmful by the community. It is itself a relative term! Many forms of killing were considered legal; indeed, God often gave Israel permission to kill. (In I Samuel 15:3, God ordered Saul to massacre the Amalekites: "Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants&#8230;") Generally, levitical law permits killing in times of war, the commission of justice and in self-defense. But recall that the levitical law we have in the Bible is incomplete, and comes to us in large gaps. If a law did exist on abortion, then we simply do not know what it was. Fortunately, we have an excellent idea on what the law on abortion might have been. As Rabbi Balfour Brickner, National Director of the Commission on Interfaith Activities, says:

"Jewish law is quite clear in its statement that an embryo is not reckoned a viable living thing (in Hebrew, bar kayama) until thirty days after its birth. One is not allowed to observe the Laws of Mourning for an expelled fetus. As a matter of fact, these Laws are not applicable for a child who does not survive until his thirtieth day."


Since the fetus is not considered a person under Jewish law, it would be impossible to consider its abortion a murder. Indeed, most Jewish scholars have agreed that abortion was legal under Jewish law. This fact alone should give serious pause to the pro-life movement.

The legality of abortion in Jewish law fits into a larger and perfectly coherent philosophy on personhood according to the Bible. The philosophy I am about to demonstrate is this: that physical creation of the body comes first, and ensoulment only comes much later.

Pro-choice Christians note that the creation of Adam was a two-step process: God first formed Adam from the dust of the ground, and only then did he give him the breath of life, turning man into a living soul. This closely resembles the scientific description of pregnancy, which notes that the first seven months are devoted to constructing the organs and body, and only by the 8th month does the fetus display a waking consciousness.

There is also a long Christian tradition of the body/soul dichotomy. The flesh has long been condemned as temporary, imperfect, sinful and weak, whereas the soul has long been revered as eternal, pure, holy and God-like. It would be perfectly consistent for Christians to believe that personhood resides in the soul, and that there is no sin in disposing of a physical entity before it is given the soul of a new person.

From here we turn to specific Biblical evidence for ensoulment and personhood. Pro-choice activists have a near-argument stopper in Exodus 21:22-23:

"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury [i.e., to the mother], the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury [i.e., to the mother], you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot&#8230;"

The traditional interpretation of this text, which even rabbinical scholars accepted for thousands of years, is this: if a man hurts a woman enough to cause a miscarriage, he reciprocates according to how much injury he caused her, i.e., an eye for an eye, etc. However, if the miscarriage resulted in no injury to the woman, then all the assailant had to pay was a monetary fine. The fact that the Bible does not equate the assailant's life with the stillborn's life is proof that the Bible does not count the fetus as a person.

This was the traditional interpretation -- until recently, that is, when pro-life Christians became alarmed by the pro-choice side's successful use of it in the debate on abortion. They took a close second look at the passage, and discovered a second possible interpretation. The text actually turns out to be ambiguous. It does not say who exactly suffers the "mischief" or harm; it could be the fetus as well as the mother. In that case, a miscarriage resulting in a live birth was punishable by a monetary fine, but a miscarriage resulting in fetal injury or death would call for the same from the assailant.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-bibleforbids.htm