Abortion, choice or wrong?

[Qua]

This may come as a real surprise but not everyone marches to the same drummer you do.

Of this I am well aware. I was saying EXACTLY that, in the most reasonable way possible. And you refused to listen to someone marching to a different drummer.

The best part? I'm not anti-abortion . At all. I was simply playing devil's advocate, and rather than listen to an opposing viewpoint with a undeniably "agree to disagree" crucial definition on which this entire issue hangs you dismissed it. You tell me not everyone marches to the same drummer as I do....and you flat out did the same thing.

That argument can have NOTHING to do with religion. Why must one be religious to think that an unborn child is deserving of the constitutional protections and rights we have? That doesn't have anything to do with religion at all. Just because religion is often invoked by abortion opponents doesn't make it the only reason people oppose it.

Debate, do not dismiss.

 

[Not_Punny]

Problem is, as Qua was saying, it isn't just "her body" -- there are two distinct bodies involved. One gets to live (the mother's), and one gets to die (the baby's). Sad.

That being said, I am neither pro nor con abortion.

HOWEVER, I am grateful that my parents didn't believe in abortion, or I wouldn't be here.

Then again, if my parents quit having sex after their second child, then I wouldn't be here either.

So maybe pro-lifer's should rail against people who are NOT having sex. Imagine all the unborn people who never were...

- - - - - -

The real solution would be 100% reversible sterilization for men AND women. That way, people who plan on having uncommitted or unfruitful sex can honestly say that "they were responsible."

This is a little harder to achieve for the female physiology, but I don't understand why they haven't figured this out for men already.

 

[SCsoccerMom]

I admittedly haven't read every post here....but has anyone brought up the "rights" of the unborn child? It would seem to me to say flatly that a woman has a right to chose ignores the fact that her choice directly impacts the life or death of another human life. To say that this human life is something other than a human life until some arbitrary date that we determine is ridiculously illogical....what...it's a beach ball until X date then it becomes a human....and btw...I know it's an emotional issue....but to terminate a human life because it is inconvenient for the mother or father is a horrible thing to do. Abortion as a form of remedial contraception is inhuman.

 

[voidout]

Abortion videos...

I have a question.

Many people have a passionate view on the subject of abortion... but do they actually understand what is actually involved in the process?

Now, I'm not going to post a video link, nor describe in detail the actual process as it will offend someone in measure that I can not repair.

I had to take a friend of mine to the clinic when I was younger, but was only a driver, I never stopped to think what was about to happen. I wasn't until much later I watch a video of what was actually happening. You can find then on YouTube if you care to look.

I have always taken the view that it's a woman's body and her choice. If both parents agree or are simply unable to care for the child, the child has a deep incurable sickness, then I have no objections to abortion.

What's your views and why?

Do you think it should be necessary to watch a demonstration video before young men and women can form their opinion?

Do we view abortion as a last stop contraceptive?

Do women have the right to choose to abort if the father wants to keep the child or vice versa?

I find myself incredibly confused on this issue, constantly.

The only thing I will contribute is this, since I can't offer my own decisive answer...

Every single one of my girl friends who have gotten an abortion went through a lot of trauma afterwards. It's effected their lives significantly. What's worse is that before the abortions, they were mainly AGAINST abortion. On top of the guilt, shame, hurt, pain, they now felt like hypocrites.

My best friend, Kim, deals with it every day of her life. I didn't see her for six months after the abortion. She couldn't even tell me, her best friend who she shares EVERY detail of her life with, for six months because she was so fucked up from it. She didn't go out. She barely ate. She constantly felt nauseous, and to this day on the anniversary she gets incredibly depressed, and sometimes even physical pains and sickness.

I'm not saying that this happens to all women...I'm just saying that I think a lot of times girls aren't educated enough on sex, and then when they're rushed into these situation they resort to abortion without thinking of the consequences.

 

[col1974]

In UK Law at least the unborn child has no rights until born alive which could include prematurely (and probably not earlier than point of viability = 24w).

This could be a sticking point where an argument in Law would fail because of this rule. It was recently considered for a reduction to 22w I believe. This new timescale wouldn't have reasonably allowed women do be fully informed before being able to make a competent and informed decision. This is down very much to the timing of screening tests and further investigations e.g amnioscentesis (with an approx 1 in 100 to 1 in 300 miscarriage risk).

 

[B_dxjnorto]

My best friend, Kim, deals with it every day of her life. I didn't see her for six months after the abortion. She couldn't even tell me, her best friend who she shares EVERY detail of her life with, for six months because she was so fucked up from it. She didn't go out. She barely ate. She constantly felt nauseous, and to this day on the anniversary she gets incredibly depressed, and sometimes even physical pains and sickness.

Yes, it will depend on the person, but most people can't do this without consequence. It is kind of absurd to believe there will be no consequences.

I know a girl who had two or three abortions. Now she is older and childless and I think it weighs on her very heavily.

 

[rob_just_rob]

If that's so, do men, fathers who do not wish to be fathers, have the choice to 'divorce' the unborn child so that a woman has no claim to expect support after the birth?

If an unborn child is 'her' body and a fathers wishes to terminate are ignored, what right do women have to demand support from men for a child they didn't want and a woman chose to keep?

This is a spurious line of reasoning. All men know, or ought to know, that when they have sex with a woman, there is a chance she could get pregnant. And all men know or ought to know that they could wind up paying child support if their partner winds up pregnant. It's pretty lame to cry foul when you knew there was a chance that could happen.

Don't like the rules? Don't play the game. There's always your hand.

 

[b.c.]

You are asleep at the wheel B.C. on this one. Many (the majority) pro-life organizations are connected heavily to pro-adoption groups that will take full accountablility and responsibility for unwanted newborns as well as their mothers. A group i was once affiliated with had a 100% adoption promise or financial assistance program for every mother who changed her mind. We paid all housing , medical, and infant needs for 2 years after the child was born or until the mother was "back on her feet". Many, many organizations do the same thing. You need to educate yourself on this before you think for a second that the pro-life movement stops at sign waiving.

When I reference this lack of concern on the part of those conservative elements, I'm speaking with regard to the issue of availability of healthcare to all.

However, with regard to your specific references I stand corrected. Keep up the good work.

 

[voidout]

I know a girl who had two or three abortions. Now she is older and childless and I think it weighs on her very heavily.

that really is such a shame. i, personally, am still very young and don't even know if i'll one day want children, but the idea of wanting a child, and not having one seems incredibly painful to me. i'm sorry to hear that your friend lives with that.

 

[invisibleman]

Hypothetically, if I had a one night stand with a woman, for no other reasons than mutual sex and we took precautions but they failed.

She ended up pregnant and wanted to keep the child for the sake of wanting a baby but I did not want to be a father and wanted a termination.

Where do you stand? Precautions were taken!

I have chosen and acted not to be a father, she has chosen to be a mother... why would she have any right to expect me to support her?

Hypothetically--It was your sperm still. You have to help take care in supporting that child regardless of what you wanted to.

 

[cdarro]

This is a spurious line of reasoning. All men know, or ought to know, that when they have sex with a woman, there is a chance she could get pregnant. And all men know or ought to know that they could wind up paying child support if their partner winds up pregnant. It's pretty lame to cry foul when you knew there was a chance that could happen.

Don't like the rules? Don't play the game. There's always your hand.

Why is it spurious? A woman cannot be forced to become a parent against her will, but a man apparently can be.

 

[rob_just_rob]

Why is it spurious? A woman cannot be forced to become a parent against her will, but a man apparently can be.

Only if she puts a gun to his head and forces him to have sex with her.

In other words, I think you either misread my previous post or are playing dumb.

 

[B_Stronzo]

That argument can have NOTHING to do with religion. Why must one be religious to think that an unborn child is deserving of the constitutional protections and rights we have?
Debate, do not dismiss.

Oh I'm not dismissing I'm observing and invariably (contradicting your assertion) those 'deserving the constitional protections and rights we have) have religion as their basis.

I've yet to see it otherwise.

 

[Bbucko]

Why is it spurious? A woman cannot be forced to become a parent against her will, but a man apparently can be.

I'm not sure how you reached the age of 51 with your sense of "fairness" intact, but that's for another discussion.

A three-minute Google search of "male contraceptives" turned up this site here, which would be my first stop were I to even contemplate having sex with another woman.

Anyone old enough to have sex is old enough to protect himself from the multitudinous risks associated with sex, pregnancy just being one.

 

[Rugbypup]

One more time with feeling THIS is "where I stand":

If you don't believe in abortion? Don't have one.

Missing the point here Stronzo.

 

[voidout]

Why is it spurious? A woman cannot be forced to become a parent against her will, but a man apparently can be.

supporting the idea of abandoning children, neglect, not taking responsibility for your own actions...

man, your phone must be RINGING off the hook. ahahaha.

 

[Bbucko]

Missing the point here Stronzo.

His point is that legislated morality is in itself immoral.

 

[Qua]

Oh I'm not dismissing I'm observing and invariably (contradicting your assertion) those 'deserving the constitional protections and rights we have) have religion as their basis.

I've yet to see it otherwise.

Fair enough, but the argument itself, while used predominantly by the religious, could be a philosophical one as well. Determining the onset of individuality and constitutional protection are legal definitions, separate from religious beliefs, though granted, they are invoked by the religious as a justification.

 

[dreamer20]

Do we view abortion as a last stop contraceptive?

No. Abortion is not a form of contraception.

Contraception means preventing conception from occuring.
Abortion means terminating pregnancy once it has occurred.

 

[nikebasketball18]

It's a right to make that decision, it just depends on how you would feel after it and if you wanna take the risks for not getting pregnant anymore after the procedure.

Once more, I agree with Pieterjoke. It's up to the individual parents to decide, not the government or others. If one parent (including the father) is against abortion and expresses that opinion, then natural childbirth shall occur.