Abortion doctor George Tiller is killed during Sunday-morning church services

Discussion in 'Politics' started by D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse, May 31, 2009.

  1. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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    In a recent Gallup poll, 51% of americans now identify as "pro-life". 42% as "pro-choice". Yet 74% also feel abortion is ok under "some", "many" or all circumstances.

    George Tiller is a late-term abortionist. A late-term abortion refers to an induced abortion procedure that occurs after the 20th week of gestation. Although I am pro-choice, I have considerable reservations about third-term abortions (I'm pro-morning-after pill, which prevents fertilization -- and, in any case, do not necessarily feel a sperm-penetrated egg is immediately a "baby").

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    Here's how Time Magazine put it:

    In the highly charged debate over abortion, nothing so stirs the moral ambiguities as the question of late abortion. As a pregnancy progresses closer and closer to viability -- the point at which a fetus could survive outside the womb, generally thought to be around 24 weeks -- even those who consider themselves pro-choice begin to have their qualms. "As much as I would prefer to avert my moral gaze, a late abortion forces me to confront the reality of abortion and my own incompletely suppressed doubts," wrote ethicist Daniel Callahan, co-founder of the Hastings Center, a medical-ethics research institute in New York. "I suspect that for all but a small minority of those who, like myself, count themselves on the pro-choice side in the abortion debate, the matter of late abortions cannot help triggering distress. It stretches our commitment to the breaking point."

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    George Tiller is a famous abortionist. He specializes in late-term abortions at his medical clinic in Wichita, Kansas, Women's Health Care Services. This clinic has been severely damaged in a bomb blast in the past. In 1991, the clinic was blockaded for six weeks by anti-abortion protesters. Yet, Tiller appears to be a moral, principled man from all indications. He was gunned down this morning during Sunday-morning church services.


    From the Chicago Sun-Times:

    "An attorney for Tiller, Dan Monnat, says the doctor was shot Sunday as he served as an usher during morning services at Reformation Lutheran Church. Monnat said Tiller's wife, Jeanne, was in the choir at the time of the shooting."


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    Anti-abortionist activist Randall Terry of "Operation Rescue" made the following statement after the shooting:

    "George Tiller was a mass-murderer. We grieve for him that he did not have time to properly prepare his soul to face God. I am more concerned that the Obama Administration will use Tiller's killing to intimidate pro-lifers into surrendering our most effective rhetoric and actions. Abortion is still murder. And we still must call abortion by its proper name, murder."


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    More from Time:

    George Tiller had been a target like no other for the anti-abortion movement. Protesters were a constant fixture outside his clinic and his home. In 1993, he had been shot in both arms, but he recovered and continued to practice; more recently, abortion foes had tried--and failed--to shut him down through legal means. In March, he was acquitted on 19 misdemeanor charges of failing to follow state law in getting a second opinion. Within moments of that verdict, Kansas' medical board announced it was investigating allegations viritually identical to the ones the jury had rejected.

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    From the Los Angeles Times:

    But Warren Hern, a Colorado physician and close friend of Tiller's who said he is now "the only doctor in the world" who performs late-term abortions, said Tiller's death was predictable.

    "I think it's the inevitable consequence of more than 35 years of constant anti-abortion terrorism, harassment and violence. George is the fifth American doctor to be assassinated. I get messages from these people saying, 'Don't bother wearing a bulletproof vest, we're going for a head shot.' "

    When President Obama was elected last fall, Hern predicted that anti-abortion violence would increase, he said. Because Obama supports legalized abortion, said Hern, its foes "have lost ground. . . . They want the doctors dead, and they invite people to assassinate us. No wonder that this happens. . . . I am next on the list."




    A suspect is in custody.
     
  2. Industrialsize

    Staff Member Moderator Gold Member

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    Does anyone think that a woman makes the difficult choice to have a late term abortion lightly and without much thought and a good reason?
     
  3. thadjock

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    I"m pro choice because i dont' think gov't should be telling us how to live our lives,

    but personally, i could never consider that an option, no matter what the circumstances.

    that said, bombing abortion clinics, and shooting abortion doctors is TERRORISM. it's no different than flying a plane into a building.
     
  4. MalakingTiti

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    Fucking fanatics.
     
  5. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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    There are only a couple late-term abortion doctors. The reason they are rare is because these abortions are so few -- almost nobody is having an abortion in their third trimester without damned good reason (this "abortion on demand" nonsense from the right tries to make women out to be "whimsical" or casual when making these decisions).

    Late term abortions are rarely performed without damned good medical reason. The child was going to die, and perhaps take the mother with it... No woman goes through 6 months of pregnancy and then NOT has the baby on a lark.
     
  6. B_Mademoiselle Rouge

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    based on documented data and facts about dr. tiller's clinic, what you said makes sense to us, but he did these late term abortions on mostly 16-20 year old women who had nothing wrong with their babies. George Tiller: a Case Study the information on this page is sited.

    he has also been in trouble for not having an independent physician recommend a 2nd opinion. he has a physician from his own clicnic verify its the proper assement for the patient. i also would like to add that most reasons for the late term abortions given by dr. tiller were for "mental" reasons for the patient, not things wrong physically with the baby or the mother. pretty much, if she wanted it, she got it.

    in a vaccuum abortion is rare and only in cases of health of the mother, best interest for the deformed baby or from incest and rape. but the truth is, its a very very common thing and mostly done because the woman is scared and doesnt want to be pregnant.
     
    #6 B_Mademoiselle Rouge, May 31, 2009
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  7. thadjock

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    so why is there such a demand for late term abortions in kansas, a staunchly conservative state? could it be that the girls hide their condition or wait until later because of societal enforced shame and degradation?
     
  8. B_Mademoiselle Rouge

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    wichita has planned parenthood services just the same as every other state in the nation which offers first trimester abortions. so, no i wouldnt agree with your statement.

    so we go from believing all late term abortions are obviously made in a responsible manner from women who have a life threatening pregnancy or deformed fetus- to- the conservative state of kansas must encourage this practice because they are forced to stay pregnant longer by societal pressures?

    might i also add that he has a practice in kansas because his father who was also an abortion performing physician died and george tiller took over his family practice in the 70's., its not because he was necessarily needed there more than anywhere else to perform such medical procedures.

    i live in a conservative state and if i wanted an abortion tomorrow i could walk into any planned parenthood clinic in my city and have it done discretely in 24 hours. so the conservative argument isnt valid in my opinion, the proof is in the availablity of first trimester abortions everywhere.
     
    #8 B_Mademoiselle Rouge, May 31, 2009
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  9. HazelGod

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    Whatever your moral beliefs or position on the issue, there's no denying the truth of this statement.
     
  10. B_Nick8

    B_Nick8 New Member

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    Anti-abortionist activist Randall Terry of "Operation Rescue" made the following statement after the shooting:

    "George Tiller was a mass-murderer. We grieve for him that he did not have time to properly prepare his soul to face God. I am more concerned that the Obama Administration will use Tiller's killing to intimidate pro-lifers into surrendering our most effective rhetoric and actions. Abortion is still murder. And we still must call abortion by its proper name, murder."

    This statement is reprehensible. Terry is virtually condoning the murder of a man who has trespassed against his own personal morals and religious beliefs and is, by default, encouraging others to set themselves up as jury, judge and executioner in situations where he believes the state has failed to do so. He ought to be brought up on charges of trying to incite.
     
  11. B_Morning_Glory

    B_Morning_Glory New Member

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    I agree here two wrongs don't make a right.
     
  12. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    I have no sympathy. I believe late term abortions are murder. The gunman is a murderer and so is the doctor. I chalk it-up as even in this case though I do not condone the shooter's actions in the slightest.
     
  13. SpeedoGuy

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    Translation: "Operation Rescue" zealots will make a thinly veiled pretense of outwardly shedding a few crocodile tears over the killing while inwardly cheering and striving to make the most of the fleeting opportunity to further their agenda.
     
  14. B_Mademoiselle Rouge

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    i believe both sides have an agenda. tiller would not have been cited on many occasions for not following the law, keeping proper records, getting a valid 2nd opinion for his patients, etc. a 19 year old girl died in his care while performing a several day late term abortion procedure as well.

    i dont believe all people against abortions would love to see him killed. but i hardly have sympathy for the man. i've seen pictures of dead babies that were full term- thrown in a trashcan and not even treated like medical waste. those are the images i see and on top of it all given that most of these late term abortions were on perfectly healthy babies and mothers. it churns my stomach.

    have we thought about why there are only a couple of late term abortionists out there we know of? because it disgusts most people liberal and conservative alike to think of late term abortions on perfectly healthy babies. all in all, its obviously something most humans arent able to think of doing because it takes being able to compartmentalize the whole process of what you are actually doing.

    i dont get involved as far as typical abortions go. i know my history and the history of other women has helped influence my personal decision on the matter. it is what it is, he was jumping through legal loopholes to induce late term abortions every chance he could. bragging about performing over 60,000 himself. this man wasnt a doctor, he was an abortion peddler.
     
  15. SpeedoGuy

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    Concur with all of the above, Mademoiselle Rouge. Late term abortion disgusts me.

    Its just that the self-righteousness of single minded types like Randall Terry strikes me as being only slightly removed from the actual doctor killers and clinic bombers themselves (who are terrorists, to use the modern parlance). Terry's too canny to advocate violence himself, but his rhetoric reeks encouragement to those who would.
     
  16. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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    Mademoiselle Rouge writes:

    based on documented data and facts about dr. tiller's clinic, what you said makes sense to us, but he did these late term abortions on mostly 16-20 year old women who had nothing wrong with their babies. George Tiller: a Case Study the information on this page is sited.

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    Ms. Rouge:

    I can't seem to ascertain who sponsors this website you've kindly linked us to, but I would like to warn others that this is a far-right harcore no-abortion-at any-cost evangelical website. And to stay away at all costs. This is not a rational, balanced view of anything.


    Here are some selected essays featured on the site:

    The pro-choice movement: Safe, legal, as often as possible
    Benjamin Shapiro on the irony of the pro-choice movement's claim for "safe, legal and rare" abortion.

    Terri's slow-motion torture death
    In this essay, Msgr. Brunner thinks the current debate about Terri Schiavo misses the heart of the issue, namely, the difference between letting someone die and making someone die.

    Is Speaking With Tongues the Initial Evidence of the Spirit Baptism?
    Especially relevant in the current culture is the question of religious phenomena. This essay explores speaking in tongues as one of the basic tenets of Pentecostalism



    Saving the Christmas Child
    Essay by Rebecca Hagelin, in which she describes the actions of Joseph and how the modern feminists prevent similar actions today.


    I'm Pro-Life and Oppose Embryonic Stem Cell Research
    Essay by J.C. Willke. In this essay, he cuts to the core of the embryonic stem cell debate.

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    This website tells me Dr. George Tiller has terminated over 60,000 pregnancies.

    This website tells me Dr. Dennis Christensen of Wisconsin has aborted between 80,000 and 100,000 fetuses.


    I would take no information offered here at face value before double-checking first from legitimate sources.


    On this site, under a section entitled "Pro-Life Music", there is a strange introductory paragraph:


    [SIZE=-1]"Through the ages, song has come from the hearts of men. David sung of his love and even despair, yet always turned to his Lord. Over two millennia later Hildegard von Bingen, a twelfth century Abbess, twined theology and music to compose canticles and antiphons that are as fresh and inspiring today as when she first braided them. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Music continues to reverberate in our hearts today. We believe that pro-life music can dig in far deeper into some hearts than words and syllogisms. We hope you appreciate and share the pro-life music we have collected."[/SIZE]​

    --------------------


    I wish I could hook up to this website's main body (this is obviously an "abortion section"). This is exactly the type of evangelical website that advocates for "curing" homosexuality with shock therapies - and is against even rudimentary contraception such as condoms and morning-after pills.

    (in other words, this website is probably not the best source to cite for arguments at a pro-gay large penis site; although it may hold sway at your mega-church where the folks loudly condemn the sinner, faith-heal by laying on hands, and speak in tongues)
     
    #16 D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse, May 31, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2009
  17. B_Mademoiselle Rouge

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    the data statistics on that site is what i was linking you to. i hadnt looked at the rest of the site, but it doesnt change the statistics of the full term abortions he provided and that it does not match the "safe, rare and legal" abortion from dealthy pregnancies or fetal genetic abnormalies.

    dr. tillers clinic provided the state with these stats regarding the procedures he so proudly did. let me also mention that i am just as unlikely to listen to the naral and gloria steinem's of the planned parenthood abortion mills as you are to read things from the people who are pro-life. ever been into one of them with a pregnancy? i know many who have and i know their agenda from my own dealings with them.

    legal, safe and rare is a joke....especially the rare part. people tend to bring up extreme examples of pushing a pro-choice mindset. even i might consider it in those circumstances, but they do not reflect but just a small minority in the abortion pie chart.

    i've never liked the idea of what tiller was doing and i especially didnt like him making it all seem so non-chalant. we arent talking about blobs of cells here, we are looking at say viable infants of 25-40 weeks along. if a mother gave birth to her infant at 35 weeks pregnant and then 5 weeks later brutally murdered the infant at home- she would be charged with murder. so why is it not considered murder on a 40 week gestation?

    also, why do people automatically assume people who are pro-life are religious? i know a lot of not so religious people like myself that actually have had a baby in our womb, gave birth and actually had a very hard time getting to that point. i've lost a baby in the second trimester, so i believe i have a little more of an opinion than most on a "gay, bick dick" website.

    also, why the "megachurch" and "faith healing, laying on of hands" comment, where did you get that idea? because you are just as judgemental as the people you complain about. throwing me in a stereotypical category.
     
    #17 B_Mademoiselle Rouge, Jun 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 1, 2009
  18. D_Martin van Burden

    D_Martin van Burden Account Disabled

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    We don't know if the suspect will be sentenced to death, but the practitioner has no say in the middle. Shot in cold blood in a church of all places!

    I think we get too attached to the idea that a terrorist is some bearded Middle Eastern man who practices some form of non-Christianity and wears a turban, but we have American domestic terrorists committing atrocities in the name of the Lawd on our own soil! Yet no war is being waged here. And Michelle Malkin wants to spend all her time crying about how Homeland Security is concerned about right-wing extremism, then shit like this happens. I really want to see how Fox News and Rush Limbaugh and their ilk will spin this one.

    I don't know George Tiller's work personally; I never heard of the guy. I looked him up and saw that he's been dealing with crap like this for 35 years, yet I didn't read anything about what happened to the people involved in all the crimes against him. And I understand that late-term abortion is a very unpopular practice. As some posters have suggested earlier, one wonders if Tiller is in the occupation simply because no one else would do it. We're talking about Kansas. Why did I not even blink twice at the idea that young women are so scared of being disowned or abandoned that they hide their pregnancy up until the late term? I wouldn't be so quick to paint his entire career as evil.

    The Operation Rescue guy's response couldn't be any clearer. We should pity Tiller because he was murdered... ahem, I mean, because he didn't get to make nice with the Lawd. Too bad the man couldn't give me some context-ripped-from-its-ass Scripture to say why it's okay that this other guy takes justice in his own hand. The mother fucker ain't Batman.

    Be that as it may, these rabid extremists are the same ones who get too busy shouting down gays and feminists and atheists but can easily turn a blind eye to murder in the name of religion. It's too bad we can't easily jack up a pharmacist who refuses to give contraception.
     
  19. B_Mademoiselle Rouge

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    and scared of being abandoned and excommunicated for being pregnant? do you ever watch tv, everyone is pregnant and unmarried and mostly young. we arent in the 16th century.
     
  20. B_Nick4444

    B_Nick4444 New Member

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    let's not play fast and loose with the "terrorist" epithet

    what occurred was murder plain and simple -- the intentional slaughter of a single targeted individual, not terrorism
     
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