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Abortion rights

Discussion in 'Politics' started by JP0724, Oct 28, 2008.

  1. JP0724

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    I posed this question in another thread, and I felt it was more appropriate to start a new thread since it's a different topic.

    Please keep your liberal panties one, and don't fly off the deep end. I genuinely am looking for your side of the story and your justifications for legislation that state that you can legally abort a baby at 16 weeks.

    Below are the facts that I stated regarding a baby at 16 weeks.

    Week Sixteen: Facial expressions are possible


    You are 16 weeks pregnant. (fetal age 14 weeks)
    The fetus measures nearly 5 inches (12cm) from head to buttocks.
    The fetus weighs about 3.5 ounces (100 grams).
    The fetus is covered with a protective soft down to regulate its temperature.
    Fat begins to form underneath skin.
    Baby hears external voices, sleeps and dreams.
    Your baby has learned to breathe. This is apparent from the regular movements of his chest, inhaling and exhaling small amounts of amniotic fluid. These actions help the lungs to develop and grow. More developed facial muscles may lead to various expressions, such as squinting and frowning. Your baby nows weighs more than their afterbirth. The baby can grasp with his hands, kick, or even somersault.

    You are showing more now and have an obvious swelling in your lower abdomen. The rest of your body is still changing. A total of 5 to 10 pound (2.25 to 4.5 kg) weight gain by this point in your pregnancy is normal.

    The crown to rump length of your baby is 4.4 to 4.8 inches (11 to 12 cm). Fetal weight has doubled in 2 weeks and is about 3.5 ounces (100g).

    Lets be clear.. I am not looking for it's her choice, it's her body, or any of that. I want to hear justifications for killing something that is breathing inside of you. I mean I really do want to know, because maybe I am just being too hard on the subject, I don't know. It's just that every time that I hear the argument, all people say is it's her body and it should be her choice, but if the baby were breathing outside the mothers body, that is murder?? It all just seems very selfish to me.

    I understand instances of Rape and Incest, and I can understand taking the morning after pill. I get that whole idea. You are doing it immediately and it is causing the fetus the least amount of harm. What I don't get is the mother waiting months, and then saying, nope I changed my mind, I'm not going to take the responsibility.

    I eagerly await your response.
     
  2. B_JasonDawgxxx

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    Oh this should be intresting. :1244:
     
  3. Charles Finn

    Charles Finn Expert Member

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    what about just not getting with child in the first place?
    or is that just me?
     
  4. ManlyBanisters

    ManlyBanisters Sexy Member

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    Stupid statement. Either way the foetus dies - least amount of harm, indeed.

    Look, I'm not your audience - I'm anti-abortion at all stages - but the argument is about defining life. You define 16 weeks as alive, I define conception as alive. The current US law and the people you are asking do not define a 16 week foetus as an independently living human being.

    There is no point arguing for your emotion based stance there in the OP. You need to argue this point in terms of science. Breathing the amniotic fluid of the womb is not the same thing as breathing air, for a start.

    I can't make that argument because my beliefs are taken from my religion and not from science. I admit that - I make no pretension to have a scientific basis for my belief that life starts at conception. But if you want to argue the definition of when life becomes life with people and laws who see it from a uniquely scientific view point then you have to drop this emotive stance. It doesn't work.
     
  5. JP0724

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    as much as I would love to say lets teach abstinence... it doesn't work. If your kids want to go out and fuck, no matter how you raise them, what you tell them, it doesn't matter.. If they want to fuck, then they are going to find a way to do it.

    but I agree, people need to take responsibility. If you don't want a baby, then take precautions.
     
  6. Amber1

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    I agree with a womans right to abortion but not after 16 weeks as you say.

    What you are decribing there is a little person and that person should have a right to life surely???

    And yes I do think a mother should have been able to make up her mind by then.

    I had a friend when I was younger that I met up with after not seeing her for quite some time and she told me she had a termination at 5 months and well... I just don't know how she could do it!?!?

    But yeh, for the reasons I've stated plus the facts the JP lists above I am very much in agreement with JP.


    Amber
     
  7. JP0724

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    I mean please don't get me wrong. I know horrible things happen, and people get raped or whatever, but why support legislation that allows a tiny person to murdered because the mother didn't want to take responsibility. Maybe if we invested in adoption reform, and provided mothers in a bad situation with more options, it would curb this atrocity.
     
  8. Principessa

    Principessa Expert Member

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    Troll alert!

    Things that make you go hmm . . .
    Has anybody else noticed that although JP0724 has been a member since February 2008, he just started posting a week ago; mostly in the Politics Forum?

    Isn't it interesting that he is one of the rare Gay Republicans on this site?



    Sits down next to JasonDawgXXX and shares her popcorn :popcorn: both wait for fireworks.
     
    #8 Principessa, Oct 28, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2008
  9. Principessa

    Principessa Expert Member

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    That's quite naive and not what the topic is about anyway.:mad:


    What's this 16 weeks nonsense about? :confused: :irked: Every place I have ever lived (NJ, DC, MA, GA) the cut off was 12 weeks. Sixteen weeks puts you firmly into the second trimester. I don't like the sound of that at all.
     
  10. Industrialsize

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    If you don't believe in abortion...DON'T HAVE ONE!
     
  11. No_Strings

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    Sentimental value does not equate to worth.
     
  12. JP0724

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    Your absolutely right, I had posted on a couple of other topics, but for the most part never found anything that I really felt like required my opinion. I found great joy in reading what others posted and 90% of the time the point of view that I would have expressed had already been posted by someone else. Politics is really the only place that I tend to disagree and would have a difference of opinion. I agree with most other things in the other forums. However, instead of being a negative nelly, why don't you embrace that I have decided to be more active and participate. We should all be glad when someone comes out of the shadows and starts participating, it makes for a better site, or we could follow your example and ostracize them and make it seem that there is something wrong with being more involved.

    And yes it IS interesting that I am a gay republican... far too many homosexual feel that there is only one party for them. Most gay men say that they can't be republican because republicans are not gay friendly, and I say what's more important putting your country first, or getting married? I live in a red state with a republican governor and we have domestic partnerships, so I don't what everyone is always bitching about.
     
  13. B_JasonDawgxxx

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    Dieses Weibchen hat ihr Gemüt verloren :biggrin1:
     
  14. JP0724

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    My mind is completely in tact. Thank you for your concern.
     
  15. D_Fiona_Farvel

    D_Fiona_Farvel Account Disabled

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    +1
    Why the abortion question? Legal or not, it has always been available and in use, even during periods of strong anti-abortion legislation. Personally, I would not put limits on gestation--let the woman and her practitioner decide the best remedy for her situation--it is none of my business.
     
  16. Gillette

    Gillette Sexy Member

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    You're arguing that at 16 weeks the fetus is a fully formed person. It isn't.

    Source

    Not able to produce it's own blood cells until week 21. (FYI, without blood to transport the oxygen breathing is a pointless exercise.)
    Lungs barely developed enough to perform the gas exchange vital to respiration at weeks 25-28. (Without the gas exchange you can suck in as much air as you like to no beneficial purpose.)

    Factualy void, emotive statements in italics.

    -Breathing isn't learned.
    -The only actions that helps the lungs develop and grow are those at the cellular level.
    - Aspirating fluid is not breathing.

    The facts in your question aren't correct making the question itself invalid.
    Your post is emotionally manipuative horseshit.
     
  17. D_Marazion Analdouche

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    From a personal standpoint I am completely against Abortion that is not from some horrible act, rape, incest etc.

    Again, I emphasize, personal standpoint, meaning if I was in a situation with someone and this came up, I would do everything I could to protect the life I helped create.

    At the end of the day I cannot tell someone else what they can or cannot do with their bodies. I think there should be some form regulation to protect children under 18. But if your an adult, I don't think it's my right to tell you what you can and cannot do.
     
  18. 1BiGG1

    1BiGG1 Experimental Member

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    At 12 weeks a baby has measurable brain function.
     
  19. 1BiGG1

    1BiGG1 Experimental Member

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    We have laws preventing people from hurting themselves and laws preventing people from hurting others including some that protect unborn babies. Expanding upon the latter would be a good idea imo.
     
  20. Principessa

    Principessa Expert Member

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    :aargh4: Just because you have everything you think you need doesn't mean everyone else does. Talk about having your head in the sand! :irked:
     
  21. mindseye

    mindseye Experimental Member

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    So does a chicken.
     
  22. 1BiGG1

    1BiGG1 Experimental Member

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    Gee, how far down the leftwing shill road does on need too be to equate a chicken with a baby?
     
  23. B_JasonDawgxxx

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    Why is EVERY subject on here either left or right to you? Give it a rest PLEASE.
     
  24. ripsrips

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    "I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born"...
     
  25. ManlyBanisters

    ManlyBanisters Sexy Member

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    In terms of the science as we understand it mindseye is correct - in fact you would be more factually correct stating that at twelve weeks a foetus has a complex nervous system including basic brain function.

    But one thing I really don't understand from everyone here. Why is nearly everyone OK with terminating a foetus that was conceived in violent rape but not a foetus that was conceived in a drunken haze? If one bundle of cells classes as life and the mother's (and father's) wishes are secondary to protecting that life (my stance) why does the other bundle of cells not have the same rights?

    I can just about get my head around the medical situation of something like an ectopic pregnancy where both parties will die if the abortion is not performed - even then the strictest law of my church says that taking one life to save another is not on - in principle I agree, in practice... well, that's my own problem and not a part of this thread.

    I go back to what I was saying earlier - you can't argue that a 12 / 16 week old foetus is a viable independent entity because, scientifically it isn't. You can argue back and forth about when life begins but the abortion debate is, essentially, one of belief and morality relating to that belief. The fact that I believe life starts at conception is not a valid argument as to why someone else, who does not believe that, should be against abortion.

    Face it - we are in the minority. I don't like the fact that abortion is so common, but no one can force me to have one. I don't like it but in a secular democracy that's about the best I can do.
     
  26. mindseye

    mindseye Experimental Member

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    No "baby" has ever emerged after twelve weeks.

    Nor was I equating the two; I was pointing out how silly it is to use "brain function" as an indicator of anything.
     
  27. B_Nick4444

    B_Nick4444 Banned

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    questioning his Republican Party adherence because he is gay is analogous to questioning a German's non-affiliation with the Nazi Party in the 1930s

    clearly the German who refused to participate recognized that Party's platform was not in Germany's best interest, regardless of its claims as being the destiny for all of Aryan blood

    likewise, these Gay Republicans can probably see through the fallacies and recognize the falsities of the Lib Dems
     
  28. bobabooey69

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    I love conservatives, they scream: "Save the baby! Life is precious!"
    But the moment that baby turns 18 they shove a gun in his hand and watch him get his head blown off in a war.

    Silly coos.
     
  29. Industrialsize

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    Someone explain this one for me:
    Why are those on the right who are "Pro-Life" and everything is about the sanctity of Life, also VERY likely to be pro Death Penalty?
     
  30. curious n str8

    curious n str8 Experimental Member

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    I for one don't wanna support a violent criminal for his time in prison only to be paroled in 10 years to go out and commit same violent crimes again. And for your info its the sanctity for life of a innocent. Pehaps you would feel better had your friends Mother aborted him.
     
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