About Labels And Coming Out

Funny1616

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Just tell me something guys... Why do we need all that terminology to specify what gender we prefer. Couldn't you just say "I like/prefer men/women". There are too much words - gay, bi, straight, pansexual, asexual, and I won't even start with these "curious" things...
Does it matter if you like men or women or no one at all?????

Do you even have to come out as gay/bi or whatever to other people? Isn't it your buisness only? It's like a ceremony nowadays... It's even harder to come out than to say I killed a man or something... Didn't it come to your mind that it's so stupid?.. How stupid world got over some years?..
 
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spaj8987

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If we lived in a perfect world i would agree with you that labels are stupid. Even if we lived in a more logical world. In which people understood the differences between things better i'd agree with you that labels are stupid.

Problem is. The illogical people. The stupid people. The harmful people. And so on make what would naturally be considered stupid....extremely intelligent and helpful.

Imagine if religion never existed. Odds are very good that if it hadn't. No one would care who a person slept with or was romantically entangled with.

Imagine if religion hadn't seeped into politics and into politicians in positions of influence. Then no one would care who a person slept with or was romantically entangled with.

Long story short. If it weren't for the people who attack others for being members of the lgbtq community. There would be much less of a need to refer to people in the lgbtq community as the lgbtq community.

It's also the same reason you label yourself as 50% straight and 50% gay. To further push back against those who say there's something inherently wrong with being any percentage gay.

Other than that it makes paper work and dating easier to degrees.

Heterosexual guy: Hey baby, how you doin.

Lesbian: I'm a lesbian.

Heterosexual guy: Oh, my bad.

Instead of..

Guy who is primarily interested in sex and romantic relationships with women: Hey baby, how you doin.

Woman who is only sexually and romantically interested in other women: I'm a woman who is only sexually interested in romantic and sexual relationships with other women.

Guy who is primarily interested in sex and romantic relationships with women: Oh, my bad.

More on both fronts it makes things easier in the realm of court cases. Since there's also bisexuality and bicurious (which allows for people to experiment without defining themselves as something and gets rid of the negative stigma around that). Labels make it easier to fight against things like transpanic. Where a person gets less sentencing after having done something horrible by playing the...i didn't know the trans person was trans and that made me panic so you should be lenient on me for some illogical reason card.

Same goes for civil rights cases. Without labels. Defending the lgbtq community as a whole becomes much much more difficult.
 

OKCLane

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Does it matter? Nope, not to me and apparently not to you. However, did you see the Iowa caucus lady who went over to Mayor Pete’s side and then was “shocked” to find out he was gay and wanted to change her vote.
Bigotry and racism are alive and thriving in these United States.
Coming out is still a big and traumatic experience for some young people. Imagine Iowa lady as your mom or grandmother. When I came out I was an independent adult. The four paternal aunts/uncles and my brother shunned me. My brother claimed as judge and jury I was found guilty (of who knows what) and was dead to him. My best friends (I was legal guardian to their boys) said it was sad I would think like this and I was no longer welcome.
My parents were supportive. My dad actually asked why I waited so long to come out! Ironic given his family’s reaction.
This was decades ago but I’m certain the same story could be told by some gay men coming out in these enlightened times.
Perhaps someday labels won’t be necessary and orientation won’t matter. Sadly, I’m afraid that is a day beyond my imagination.
 

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...Do you even have to come out as gay/bi or whatever to other people? Isn't it your buisness only? It's like a ceremony nowadays...

You don't have to come out if you don't find any purpose of advantage in it. This has come up as topic previously and the impression I got is that the further people are towards the gay end of the scale the more benefit they see in coming and and the further they are to the straight end the less benefit they see.

Part of what makes this area so muddy is that people have varying degress of arraction to each sex, as described by the Kinsey Scale, but there are only two sexes so a relationship can only be either with a woman or with another man, at least at any one time.

When you look around at society you see that the two sexes available for a relationship correspond to two paths - the one where you pursue, date and maybe eventually marry, a woman which is considered mainstream and doesn't require us to give any explanation and the one where you pursue, date and maybe eventually marry another man which is the minority path, the one that takes people by surprise even if they are actually fine with it. Even in the latter case you could avoid a formal announcement and just say people can think what they like but I suspect most people would prefer to forewarn.

Then, even before you get to that point, there is the question of knowing what you're looking for, sometimes called coming out to yourself. For someone who is attracted only to men but always imagined a wife and children there is clearly a point in resetting his own expectations. For a bisexual man with a strong attraction to women and less of an attraction to men, while it can be good to acknowledge, and be comfortable with, the attraction to men it's less dramatic for him because the wife and children he might have imagined from young is still a strong possibility.

The last time I respnded to this, another poster also said there was a point in standing up to be counted. I am not quite so sure about that. How much of an attraction to men does one need to adopt the label bisexual and consider oneself part of the LBGTQ community? A Kinsey 1? Or a 2?

Should people become accpeting of non-straight sexuality because it is more common than previously thought? Does consideration of a minority's right to not be harassed or discriminated against depend on how big a minority it is? Or should it just be part of the principle of "live and let live"? On the other hand it becomes much harder to cling to any prejudice about straight being right and gay being wrong once you accept that there's a whole scale in between and that there are plenty of people who are outwardly straight but certainly not 100% so and a YouGov poll found about 50% are not completely straight: 1 in 2 young people say they are not 100% heterosexual | YouGov

The other issue of whether to be part of a LBGTQ community is about whether you want support from such a community. Again I suspect the closer to the gay end of the scale you are, the more likely you are to want that kind of support but just like whether to give yourself a label, it has to be your choice.
 

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In an ideal world we wouldn't care about the romantic or sexual interests of people we weren't close with. And would only care that those we are close with are happy and satisfied with their relationships. So we wouldn't need labels to describe them.

Sadly that isn't the world we're in.
 

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If we lived in a perfect world i would agree with you that labels are stupid. Even if we lived in a more logical world. In which people understood the differences between things better i'd agree with you that labels are stupid.

Problem is. The illogical people. The stupid people. The harmful people. And so on make what would naturally be considered stupid....extremely intelligent and helpful.

Imagine if religion never existed. Odds are very good that if it hadn't. No one would care who a person slept with or was romantically entangled with.

Imagine if religion hadn't seeped into politics and into politicians in positions of influence. Then no one would care who a person slept with or was romantically entangled with.

Long story short. If it weren't for the people who attack others for being members of the lgbtq community. There would be much less of a need to refer to people in the lgbtq community as the lgbtq community.

It's also the same reason you label yourself as 50% straight and 50% gay. To further push back against those who say there's something inherently wrong with being any percentage gay.

Other than that it makes paper work and dating easier to degrees.

Heterosexual guy: Hey baby, how you doin.

Lesbian: I'm a lesbian.

Heterosexual guy: Oh, my bad.

Instead of..

Guy who is primarily interested in sex and romantic relationships with women: Hey baby, how you doin.

Woman who is only sexually and romantically interested in other women: I'm a woman who is only sexually interested in romantic and sexual relationships with other women.

Guy who is primarily interested in sex and romantic relationships with women: Oh, my bad.

More on both fronts it makes things easier in the realm of court cases. Since there's also bisexuality and bicurious (which allows for people to experiment without defining themselves as something and gets rid of the negative stigma around that). Labels make it easier to fight against things like transpanic. Where a person gets less sentencing after having done something horrible by playing the...i didn't know the trans person was trans and that made me panic so you should be lenient on me for some illogical reason card.

Same goes for civil rights cases. Without labels. Defending the lgbtq community as a whole becomes much much more difficult.

To be fair, I think if religion didn't exist there would still be people that would be against it. But that's just how things go
 

spaj8987

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To be fair, I think if religion didn't exist there would still be people that would be against it. But that's just how things go

I'm not so sure about that. The only thing i've seen that comes up naturally when it comes to people being against gay or bisexual people is public displays of affection. The kinds of people who don't like seeing other people kissing and holding hands. Problem is, that's universal. The people who don't like seeing that don't care what the sexuality of the couple is who do it. They just have issues with public displays of affection across the board.

That's about it. If that were to exist instead of homophobia and transphobia i highly doubt it would reach the level homophobia and transphobia has without the help of thousands of years of propaganda, flat out lies and people wanting to stay in the closet as a means to exploit the lgbtq community at their will.

So yeah, i don't know about that.

You don't have to come out if you don't find any purpose of advantage in it. This has come up as topic previously and the impression I got is that the further people are towards the gay end of the scale the more benefit they see in coming and and the further they are to the straight end the less benefit they see.

Part of what makes this area so muddy is that people have varying degress of arraction to each sex, as described by the Kinsey Scale, but there are only two sexes so a relationship can only be either with a woman or with another man, at least at any one time.

When you look around at society you see that the two sexes available for a relationship correspond to two paths - the one where you pursue, date and maybe eventually marry, a woman which is considered mainstream and doesn't require us to give any explanation and the one where you pursue, date and maybe eventually marry another man which is the minority path, the one that takes people by surprise even if they are actually fine with it. Even in the latter case you could avoid a formal announcement and just say people can think what they like but I suspect most people would prefer to forewarn.

Then, even before you get to that point, there is the question of knowing what you're looking for, sometimes called coming out to yourself. For someone who is attracted only to men but always imagined a wife and children there is clearly a point in resetting his own expectations. For a bisexual man with a strong attraction to women and less of an attraction to men, while it can be good to acknowledge, and be comfortable with, the attraction to men it's less dramatic for him because the wife and children he might have imagined from young is still a strong possibility.

The last time I respnded to this, another poster also said there was a point in standing up to be counted. I am not quite so sure about that. How much of an attraction to men does one need to adopt the label bisexual and consider oneself part of the LBGTQ community? A Kinsey 1? Or a 2?

Should people become accpeting of non-straight sexuality because it is more common than previously thought? Does consideration of a minority's right to not be harassed or discriminated against depend on how big a minority it is? Or should it just be part of the principle of "live and let live"? On the other hand it becomes much harder to cling to any prejudice about straight being right and gay being wrong once you accept that there's a whole scale in between and that there are plenty of people who are outwardly straight but certainly not 100% so and a YouGov poll found about 50% are not completely straight: 1 in 2 young people say they are not 100% heterosexual | YouGov

The other issue of whether to be part of a LBGTQ community is about whether you want support from such a community. Again I suspect the closer to the gay end of the scale you are, the more likely you are to want that kind of support but just like whether to give yourself a label, it has to be your choice.

You kind of forgot about a few things. There are more than just the two genders. Trans people not only do exist but have existed exactly as long as men and women. And in every spectrum trans people can exist. Be it those who feel they were born as another gender and those who were born with both.

I mean people don't have to come out if they don't want to (yeah i know i can only talk about this so much being a heterosexual guy) but it really does help if they do.

One of the ways homophobia and transphobia has been able to wreck so much pure havoc on humanity is isolation. The more people can treat members of the lgbtq community as if they are rare isolated incidents to others the less people can and do defend members of the lgbtq community as also being worthy of human treatment.

Meaning the more people come out, the less likely others can or will adopt the ideology that members of the lgbtq community are less than human or can be less than human.

One of the biggest hits to homophobic and transphobic ideology has been science finding and stating the gay and bisexual behavior is also found in nature naturally. Which threw a massive monkey wrench in the...not born that way attempt at an argument by homophobic and transphobic people.

And while that isn't exactly coming out. It had the same effect. Pointing to how natural being gay and bisexual is evolutionary speaking.

It's sad to say but coming out had to happen before there was ever a chance of live and let live could be possible. And to a certain degree still is.

The lgbtq community didn't throw the first stone. And still aren't. Meanwhile those against the lgbtq community are still do this day attempting to throw boulders.

Most people sadly don't engage with certain topics until it harms them directly. They are more than happen with accepting that the people around them are it for the world. That that's all there is to human beings.

People who come out. Shatter that view. And force that view from being re-adopted. Just by their own existence.

Don't get me wrong. I fully understand why people don't. They could very well be murdered. Odds are good that in certain places they will be. I would never ask a person to do that. At the same time, if they were to decide to. It would kick homophobes and transphobes square in the ball sack.

How much of an attraction doesn't really matter when it comes to that. Or at least i don't think so. Because we aren't talking the lgbtq community already having been considered normal.

Things are still so bad that even a full on 100% heterosexual guy publicly stating that they can see why other would want to bang or be banged by a 100% homosexual man is enough to stir the pot. Which considering how far we think we've come as human beings is insane.

So yeah. The fight (or if you want to be entirely accurate..defense) isn't over yet. And i don't think it ever will be.
 

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I'm not so sure about that. The only thing i've seen that comes up naturally when it comes to people being against gay or bisexual people is public displays of affection. The kinds of people who don't like seeing other people kissing and holding hands. Problem is, that's universal. The people who don't like seeing that don't care what the sexuality of the couple is who do it. They just have issues with public displays of affection across the board.

That's about it. If that were to exist instead of homophobia and transphobia i highly doubt it would reach the level homophobia and transphobia has without the help of thousands of years of propaganda, flat out lies and people wanting to stay in the closet as a means to exploit the lgbtq community at their will.

So yeah, i don't know about that.



You kind of forgot about a few things. There are more than just the two genders. Trans people not only do exist but have existed exactly as long as men and women. And in every spectrum trans people can exist. Be it those who feel they were born as another gender and those who were born with both.

I mean people don't have to come out if they don't want to (yeah i know i can only talk about this so much being a heterosexual guy) but it really does help if they do.

One of the ways homophobia and transphobia has been able to wreck so much pure havoc on humanity is isolation. The more people can treat members of the lgbtq community as if they are rare isolated incidents to others the less people can and do defend members of the lgbtq community as also being worthy of human treatment.

Meaning the more people come out, the less likely others can or will adopt the ideology that members of the lgbtq community are less than human or can be less than human.

One of the biggest hits to homophobic and transphobic ideology has been science finding and stating the gay and bisexual behavior is also found in nature naturally. Which threw a massive monkey wrench in the...not born that way attempt at an argument by homophobic and transphobic people.

And while that isn't exactly coming out. It had the same effect. Pointing to how natural being gay and bisexual is evolutionary speaking.

It's sad to say but coming out had to happen before there was ever a chance of live and let live could be possible. And to a certain degree still is.

The lgbtq community didn't throw the first stone. And still aren't. Meanwhile those against the lgbtq community are still do this day attempting to throw boulders.

Most people sadly don't engage with certain topics until it harms them directly. They are more than happen with accepting that the people around them are it for the world. That that's all there is to human beings.

People who come out. Shatter that view. And force that view from being re-adopted. Just by their own existence.

Don't get me wrong. I fully understand why people don't. They could very well be murdered. Odds are good that in certain places they will be. I would never ask a person to do that. At the same time, if they were to decide to. It would kick homophobes and transphobes square in the ball sack.

How much of an attraction doesn't really matter when it comes to that. Or at least i don't think so. Because we aren't talking the lgbtq community already having been considered normal.

Things are still so bad that even a full on 100% heterosexual guy publicly stating that they can see why other would want to bang or be banged by a 100% homosexual man is enough to stir the pot. Which considering how far we think we've come as human beings is insane.

So yeah. The fight (or if you want to be entirely accurate..defense) isn't over yet. And i don't think it ever will be.

I'm not saying religion hasn't had an impact on the views of sexuality or anything. But it's one of those things that you can never know how much of an impact because it all ready exists and has existed as long as people have been able to form sentences. I could say I've met homophobic and transphobic people that haven't had a religious upbring, but you could easily say that the world is run by religious messages and propaganda, yada yada yada. My point is that some religion is corrupt (not saying the idea of God is corrupt), but it isn't the only corruption
 
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spaj8987

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I'm not saying religion hasn't had an impact on the views of sexuality or anything. But it's one of those things that you can never know how much of an impact because it all ready exists and has existed as long as people have been able to form sentences. I could say I've met homophobic and transphobic people that haven't had a religious upbring, but you could easily say that the world is run by religious messages and propaganda, yada yada yada. My point is that some religion is corrupt (not saying the idea of God is corrupt), but it isn't the only corruption

Of course. It isn't the only corruption. I 100% can agree with that. No question.

Problem is. What else did religion help to create?

Oh keep in mind. We aren't just talking christianity. We're talking islam. Judism. Satanic cults. Any and everything that took cues from religion.

Meaning...racism, sexism, elitism, nepotism, ageism, a whole mess of things against the disabled, pedophilia would take a massive hit, rape, there would have been much much much much much much much much much much MUCH less murder over the span of human history,

Without religion..narcissism would have had one hell (ha ha) of a difficult time grasping the eye of humanity. People would have lived that were murdered. Women who were some of the pioneers of science would never have been burned at the stake or stoned to death. Africans who were the pioneers of medicine would never have been enslaved and had their heritage ripped from them. Science in general could have advanced naturally instead of having to do their business in back alleys like drug dealers. Barter systems wouldn't have been shelved in favor of the church's coin.

So on and so forth.

Religion has been so important to the continued destruction and harm of humanity that even climate change denial has roots in it.

Yeah, i agree. Human beings would have found other ways to be corrupt. Though without religion having given them all of the gold rings and power up mushrooms. That corruption wouldn't have been able to take hold nearly as much as it had and has.

My guess. If religion hadn't taken hold of humanity. We could have already beat the dog shit out of all current science fiction and could right now be sipping margaritas on a space ship while watching black holes dance the night away. :p
 
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Acratopotes

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To be fair, I think if religion didn't exist there would still be people that would be against it. But that's just how things go

When you look at all the narrow minded views of sex what they have is common is they focus on procreation. Why would virginity in a woman be valued? Because it means when a man marries her she is not already pregnant with another man's baby. Why no sex outside of marriage? To make sure a woman bears only her husband's children. etc.

So I am sure our ancestors would have worked out that the main purpose of sex organs and sexual behaviour was breeding but, without religion, would they have seen sexual behaviour for other purposes as wrong?

I have heard the argument that gay sex is unatural: "Men fancy, and try to have sex with, women - that's how the species continues. Anything else is weird". Except, of course, that it is not limited to humans and clearly is part of normal variation.

So possibly there could have been some homophobia without religion but it does seem that religion has played a big part in reinforcing the "sex for procreation" message with, depending on exactly which religion, various departures from that seen as wrong and, of course, homosexuality is bound up with that.
 

Acratopotes

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You kind of forgot about a few things. There are more than just the two genders. Trans people not only do exist but have existed exactly as long as men and women. And in every spectrum trans people can exist. Be it those who feel they were born as another gender and those who were born with both.

At the risk of seeming pedantic, I didn't say gender, I said sex and there are usually only two of them though in a very few individuals the genotype and phenotype can differ. I said that because I believe most people are attracted to sex, not gender. "Tit or bum man?" These are physical characteristics of women. Also, facially, (straight) men are attracted to rounder faces, a generally female characteristic, and women are attracted to longer, squarer faces, a typically male characteristic.

But, yes of of course people whose gender does not match their sex is not going to be a new thing, just something we have now given a name to and for which, like sexual orientation, we have ackowledged that it is part of normal variation.

And yes, being in a relationship with someone whose gender is obviously not the opposite of one's own is going to get noticed.

One of the ways homophobia and transphobia has been able to wreck so much pure havoc on humanity is isolation. The more people can treat members of the lgbtq community as if they are rare isolated incidents to others the less people can and do defend members of the lgbtq community as also being worthy of human treatment.

I think there are two different issues here. When it comes to feeling like you belong, yes of course anyone in a minority who feels like he doesn't fit in with those around him will feel much better to find others like him - support groups are valuable in all sorts of situations.

On promoting the whole spectrum of sexual orientation as being normal, as I said before, I am not sure the size of the LBGTQ community is the issue but the number of people who are prepared to treat LBGTQ people as normal human beings, as friends, as work collegues etc. and confirm that they are happy to do so.

One of the biggest hits to homophobic and transphobic ideology has been science finding and stating the gay and bisexual behavior is also found in nature naturally. Which threw a massive monkey wrench in the...not born that way attempt at an argument by homophobic and transphobic people.

I am sure that has had a very positive effect but it also seems to me that treating LBGTQ people as normal humans should not depend on a proof of "born this way". What if a lesbian could choose to become straight? Does that mean she should? Why? It comes back to the idea that women are there to have children so if she could choose to do that she should. I was going to say that we don't treat straight couple who choose to remain childless the same grief but actually they do get some negative attention. With infant mortality at a low level, at least in the developed world, and the population of the world at a level high enough to negatively affect the environment it's time we got rid of the silly idea that just because people's bodies are physicallty capable of breeding that they have a moral obligation to do so. By and large the romantic and sexual behaviour of people doesn't affect other people so it really is time we let people get on with it.
 
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spaj8987

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@Acratopotes I actually mostly agree with you on all points. At the same time...i think there's value in being pedantic sometimes. Not all the time mind you but sometimes.

Yes. Heterosexual people who don't have children do face a certain amount of backlash for not having done so. At the same time...

Supreme Court to Hear Case on Gay Rights and Foster Care

[ The Supreme Court on Monday agreed to decide whether Philadelphia may exclude a Catholic agency that does not work with same-sex couples from the city’s foster-care system.

The city stopped placements with the agency, Catholic Social Services, after a 2018 article in The Philadelphia Inquirer described its policy against placing children with same-sex couples. The agency and several foster parents sued the city, saying the decision violated their First Amendment rights to religious freedom and free speech. ]

..we're talking large groups of people putting much more effort toward keeping members of the lgbtq community from even fostering kids. Which to me is worse than someone bingoing a heterosexual person about not already having kids.

I also agree that by and large people's sexual and romantic relationships doesn't affect other people. At the same time...

Colorado Democrats block effort to ban transgender girls from participating in female sports

[ A host of anti-LGBTQ legislation is set to be blocked by Democrats at the Colorado state Capitol.

Among the pieces of legislation include efforts to define marriage as between a man and woman, block same-sex couples from adopting, allow businesses to deny LGBTQ services over religious beliefs, criminalize doctors for performing transgender surgeries on youth, and prohibit transgender girls from participating in female sports teams. ]

..we're talking large groups of people putting much more effort toward jamming themselves and their beliefs down people's throats than those who aren't. And in both situations (there are more) massive lobbying campaigns are involved. Big money. Along with flat out hate groups. Who if given the chance, would murder those people on the spot.

(I am sure that has had a very positive effect but it also seems to me that treating LBGTQ people as normal humans should not depend on a proof of "born this way".)

I agree. It shouldn't. Sad part is..a fraction of it does. Not because i or anyone else wants it to but it just does.

When we're talking homophobic, transphobic and so on people. We aren't talking consistently logical people. If anything, since all of those things are inherently illogical, we're talking the least logical people. The kinds of people who react emotionally first, middle and mostly the end. People who brute force stupidity into every last corner of humanity's psyche.

(On promoting the whole spectrum of sexual orientation as being normal, as I said before, I am not sure the size of the LBGTQ community is the issue but the number of people who are prepared to treat LBGTQ people as normal human beings, as friends, as work collegues etc. and confirm that they are happy to do so.)

This is where we get to a difficult part of the conversation. Or at least i think it's the difficult part. Without people seeing the lgbtq community as human there would never have been a chance for people to see them as friends, work colleagues and so on. The humanity comes first. Then everything else follows behind.

Now i can understand your point if you're saying you don't know if we STILL need for members of the lgbtq community to be seen as human beings. Enough time has passed and enough civil rights leaders have given their all towards where we are as a human race.

Making it possible to think we no longer need to make the case that members of the lgbtq community are human. And to that i'd say...

Westboro Baptist Church attempts a homophobic protest and it backfires spectacularly

[ The notoriously homophobic Westboro Baptist Church attempted to pick a fight with an LGBT-inclusive university, but the students were having none of it.

The Phelps family church, also known as “the most hated family in America”, held anti-LGBT+ protests at several locations throughout Los Angeles on Monday, having travelled all the way from Kansas to picket the Academy Awards. ]

Nah. It's still very much needed. Sadly. Especially considering...

Why NJ Needs a Law Banning the Gay-Trans 'Panic' Murder Defense | New Jersey Law Journal

[ On Jan. 21, 2020, Governor Phil Murphy signed “A1796/S2609 Prohibiting the Gay and Trans Panic Defense for Murder” into law. Effective immediately, the law made New Jersey the ninth state to ban this tactic, which the American Bar Association (ABA) defines as “a legal strategy which asks a jury to find that a victim’s sexual orientation or gender identity is to blame for the defendant’s violent reaction, including murder.” Governor Murphy declared: “Under this law, a defendant [is] prohibited from using a victim’s actual or perceived gender identity or expression or affectional or sexual orientation as a heat of passion defense to murder in New Jersey courts.” ]

..the ninth? We aren't talking acceptance here. We're talking life and death.

Support groups are awesome. When they are serious about supporting people. They can and do save lives. Here's the problem though. If alcohol isn't a large issue why have aa? If there's a support group. That means there's a need for it. If there's a need for it. Then that means there are people out there who target others. Others who have very little or zero defense against them overall.

Meaning. Those people use belonging as a weapon. Gatekeeping. Elitism. And so on. My guess is you weren't saying that it was ONLY about people wanting to belong somewhere but like i said..to me being a tad pedantic has it's positives.

When it comes to certain kinds of people. Certain kinds of groups. They use heterosexuality as a weapon. Something to harm members of the lgbtq community with knowingly or unknowingly. Considering how normal heterosexual seems to most people who either don't understand what science has said, refuse what science has said outright or both.

Which is why we need to keep saying it. Not just members of the lgbtq community but everyone (great..now i have that scene stuck in my head).

(there are usually only two of them though in a very few individuals the genotype and phenotype can differ.)

Usually yes. But there's a reason why there's a t in lgbtq. Groups of people who aren't included are usually the groups picked out and picked on the most. So again, being a bit pedantic is a good thing.

As far as gender rolls....(yummy) roles go. That's a whole nothing can of worms in my opinion.

And are a large reason why so many people are confused when it comes to both the lgbtq community and the people against them.

A woman can be and is masculine. A man can be and is feminine. Those words don't mean as much as i think most people think they mean. Woman have what is considered strong jaws. And men have badonkadonks. Yes. I expressly wanted to bring that word back because of how fun it is to both say and write. Sue me. :p

Every last characteristic humanity has deemed ONLY for men and ONLY for women is shared across everyone. We describe everything in terms of masculine and feminine. Even inanimate objects. Which should be more than enough proof that...we human beings mostly just make shit up as we go.

Attracted to boobs? Men have those. (Or at least i do) Attracted to rough or rougher skin? Women have that. Hairy asses? Women have that. Small soft fingers? Men have that.

And then there's trans people. Who basically explode every last notion we have regarding the differences between men and women.

Leaving only childbirth and that time of the month. And if science keeps continuing to kick as much ass as it has for the last few hundreds of years......well there'll be zero differences at all.

Which i think. Confuses the ever loving fuck out of a lot of people. Across the spectrum of humanity. And that's because..masculinity and femininity doesn't actually exist. They are constructs we've placed on everyone and everything with no real attachment to anything or anyone.

Sure. There are men. There are women. There are transpeople. But. That's about it.
 
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Sagittarius84

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Full disclosure: i understand why my hetero cis maleness probably suffers from far fewer consequences when it comes to labels of sexuality, but that becomes an affirmation to attack the stigma not the label itself. ..because i think we need to be honest in that it's really only the contextual weight of labels and how that weight disproportionately is borne by certain populations of non cis or non hetero individuals that continually spurs this conversation. Im not saying anyone is exempt, but this is about primarily the sexual fluidity of men, in that gay, bi and bicurious, and queer men(and by proxy transwomen and the men that engage with them sexually) and the societal cost they tend to face when their lifestyle and sexual preferences are specified.
Its not that I don't get it, being African American, often our community serves as a microcosm for bigger trends, and with our common cultures of social conservatism and a untenable preference for the hypermasculine(and somewhat patriarchal) that persists even amongst the most progressive of our women, men whom dont necessarily fulfill the masculine ideal, or have sexual and/or romantic feelings for other men or transwomen have quote the motivation to avoid the appropriate labels as they tend to tear him down, both societally and in the eyes of the women he may still be sexually or romantically interested in.
I think the generational gap provides quite a bit more insight...millenials like myself seem to be the middle ground behind these attitudes changing in that I noticed most of the people whom complain about the restrictive nature of labels tend to be millenials and older, wherein younger millenials and younger generations find themselves less socially(and sexually) encumbered by labels especially when it comes to cis women's increased acceptance of men whom themselves do not fulfill the masculine ideal or have sexual/romantic proclivities that deviate from the strictly heterosexual.
 

51arledge

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Wow!
What a great discussion here.
I just want to be succinct in saying that there are 3 great reasons to come out.

(And here I need to qualify myself: I grew up very fundamentalist and didn't come out until I got sober at age 33 and kicked religion out of my life. I'm now 68.)

3 reasons to come out:
1) So that you can live a life of integrity. Rooted in honesty within yourself but also with all of those around you.
2) To educate those who know you (family, friends, colleagues, etc.) so that they see a wider spectrum of what LGBTQ looks like not just some media caricature.
3) To set an example for other younger, shyer or more frightened people of what an out and honest gay life can be. (See Dan Savage's "It gets better" campaign to fight against the tide of gay suicides.)
 

headbang8

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I resisted coming out for years. I was kinda confused about how I was supposed to feel, and how I actually felt.

So when I labeled myself “gay” in my own head, it was actually very helpful. It brought peace of mind, and clarity. I understood myself a little better. Hey, there are others like me; I’m not a freak. I’m just gay, not odd.

The label wasn’t really for the world around me. I don’t particularly give a fuck who knows I’m gay or not; if it’s important that they know, they’ll find out soon enough.

That said, I think it’s good, in principle, for us to be out about who we are. The more of us who simply show up to life as gay or lesbian or trans or whatever, the more our lives are woven into the fabric of our families and communities. It makes us safer, able to live more satisfying lives both inside and outside the bedroom.
 
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fordonfire

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I totally agree that the concept of "coming out" is somewhat dated and anachronistic. It's leftover from a time when people couldn't even live their life "out of the closet" let alone talk about such matters without causing a stir. Nowadays, at least if you live in a place like California or Canada, no one gives a rats ass about whether you're this that or the other, and going further, most people I know (young and old) no longer think in such rigid, black-and-white terms when it comes to sexuality, sexual preference, etc. People might still use all the labels like gay and straight, but with the understanding that many different things over an entire lifetime are not that rigid and inflexible. But I still kind of love it when someone makes a bit of a show doing it, like the older British TV guy recently, since that seems to be the best way for them to move into the next part of their life, I guess. Myself though, I'm a very guarded person and if someone wants to know something about me, typically they have to just "come out" and ask me
 

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Just tell me something guys... Why do we need all that terminology to specify what gender we prefer. Couldn't you just say "I like/prefer men/women". There are too much words - gay, bi, straight, pansexual, asexual, and I won't even start with these "curious" things...
Does it matter if you like men or women or no one at all?????

Do you even have to come out as gay/bi or whatever to other people? Isn't it your buisness only? It's like a ceremony nowadays... It's even harder to come out than to say I killed a man or something... Didn't it come to your mind that it's so stupid?.. How stupid world got over some years?..
If you’re not comfortable with a label then don’t use it. It’s largely a heteronormative construct to have to label everything to know exactly what it is but sexuality is a scale rather than boxes to be fit in to. I like to think about sexuality as a colour chart instead of just black and white.
 
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