About that $700B...

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Notaguru2, Sep 24, 2008.

  1. Notaguru2

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    It's good to see Dems challenging this loss-leader administration.... Particularly, I like what the treasury spokeswoman told Forbes:

    Bad News For The Bailout - Forbes.com

     
    #1 Notaguru2, Sep 24, 2008
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2008
  2. transformer_99

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    After hearing/seeing Bush tonight, I've never been more against a bailout. The Government should've investigated this long before it got to this level of crisis. Maybe if they had a few heads on the chopping block already with guaranteed sentences. But to release $ 700+ billion with only a hope of finding anything like Enron going on. Sorry, name the names of the guilty and put the wheels of justice in motion and grind them. Then we'll entertain a bailout. If I'm going to pay for another bad show, I want to see someone hanging from a rope like we saw Saddam Hussein.
     
  3. Notaguru2

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    Republicans, Democrats, and/or Independents... make them all famous! Then send them to jail. Did you see the legalese in Paulson's 3 page analysis to congress? Paraphrasing; he laid out that his actions or anyone associated with this bailout could NOT be reviewed by congress or any court of law. Now, I'm no lawyer, but why do you need that type of protection if you don't already know what is about to be told?

    Edited: I found the quote.

    http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/2008/09/20/text_of_paulson.html

    I just can't believe we're about to give ONE man sole discretion and authority to spend $700B ... with no oversight. Guys, that link is the WHOLE plan... just simply amazing.

    And did you catch... he's asking that US CODE be amended to allow our national debt outstanding to rise to $11,315,000,000,000! (from $8,184,000,000,000). He's asking for us to allow him to raise our national debt $3T. This cannot stand....
     
    #3 Notaguru2, Sep 24, 2008
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2008
  4. catman

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    All I can think of is all the rhetoric Bush used to 'justify the money' for the bombs about to strike us....

    what bombs? what war?


    The day after 9/11 Bush told the country not to 'come together' (wouldn't that have been amazing) but to..

    SPEND MONEY.


    Where did that lead us?

    It takes congress 2 years to raise minimum wage 1$/ hour yet we can write a bill spending....700 billion in 2 days??

    No.
     
  5. faceking

    faceking Active Member

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    any shock... why the Democrat-led congressional approval rating has been lower than Bush's for months and months....
     
  6. Notaguru2

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    Dems don't have enough votes silly wabbit. This still hangs on the GOP. Nice try.
     
  7. transformer_99

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    Faceking, this isn't about style points or popularity ratings, it's about trillions of dollars where this first wave of $ 700+ billion is a bandaid for the problems, that'll get us where ?, Another year or so down the road ?

    Bush in his address actually thinks the foundation of this bailout is actually going to be worth something again down the road. The foundation of it is the inflated mortgage crisis. And the real underlying issue is that the salary and wages of workers hads not kept pace with that inflation. People aren't buying these houses for a reason today and they are certainly losing them for a reason today. The paycheck doesn't cover the mortgage and every other price gouge the last 7+ years of Bush has thrown at us.

    Back to that foundation though, Bush thinks that if the US governement buys all the bad debt up from these companies, that somewhere over the rainbow, another will come along and buy that back from the US Government some fine day. Well, it won't ever get written off, as the US Govt. loves to accumulate trillions in debt already. This bailout simply gets a significant amount of the write offs and write downs of bad debt off the balance sheets of companies that rang debt up for themselves at every turn. I definitely want the heads of those responsible, because they cleaned up financially and made fabulous money and this loop of fraud needs to be rectified and closed, unlike Enron.

    And as sure as God made green apples, this will go down like the S&L bailout, Enron, Iraq War & 9/11/2001. Congress and whoever else will produce a wonderful nice & tidy little report for us and the one's that perpetrated all this will come up with testimony that it was unforeseeable, there weren't any silver bullets, no connecting of dots and whatever other bullshit we had to accept for those other man-made, self-inflicted disasters. The whole debacle was foreseeable. And it was more than foreseeable. It doesn't work for individuals because an individual you can manage on a case by case basis, but for a society it's a big mess where it still doesn't work, but a major ordeal to punish those that profited grossly. This was yelling "fire" in a crowded movie theatre and then watching the resultant stampede and those that created the stampede remain to plunder and pillage, loot in the aftermath..
     
    #7 transformer_99, Sep 25, 2008
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2008
  8. D_Bob_Crotchitch

    D_Bob_Crotchitch New Member

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    Get real. It's because the Congress as a whole is an incompetent mess. If you aren't on our team, we won't play. It's been going on since the '90s.

    I am afraid this financial nightmare is just the beginning. In recent years, the largest source of investment capital has been from foreign shores. If they decide to invest elsewhere, the US is sunk. US citizens on the whole don't save money outside of their 401ks. Many are not saving enough in their 401ks to fund retirement. Decades of personal financial irresponsibility is coming home to roost. The thing I hate about it is the responsible people are going to be sucked down by the others. There is an enormous concern that if they don't bail out Lehman, it will start a dominoe effect that will cause a total crash in the US, and a worldwide crash in financial markets.
     
  9. D_Chocho_Lippz

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    QFT! QFT! QFT!

    I have been working hard for the last two years to pay off my debt. My credit cards are done. My car is paid off. And my $30k student loan is down to $8k. With all these bailouts (institutions and homes), I've seriously asked myself why the hell I'm doing what I'm doing.

    I mean seriously, why am I sacrificing things in my life (and I have had to so that I could be $8k away from debt-free all the way frommmm like $100k?) when everyone else is getting bailed out?? :angryfire2:
     
  10. swordfishME

    swordfishME Member

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    Very good point, Hootie

    The United States of America being the most powerful nation on the planet (in the economic sense) is a myth and has been so since the mid eighties. Even if a third of the foriegn investors in the US decided to withdraw their money, the US economy would collapse in a matter of days. The US may be the world's largest economy and downturns cause panic in the world markets but a day will come when foriegn investors will decide to shore up the world economy by pumping money into their own national markets instead of ensuring the health of the world economy by investing in the US. THAT WILL BE THE DAY THAT WE WILL BE FUCKED IN THE MOST LITERAL SENSE OF THE WORD.
     
  11. Grande7

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    Looking at it from the outside (Canada), and listening to all sides. It sure seems like the greed and fraud of some have caused this whole mess. No way you can give out loans to people that you KNOW cannot pay them back ! History continues to repeat itself. . . the ONLY sure way to clear up this mess is to let the firms that handed out these bad loans, go bankrupt, and put thier management in jail - for fraud and whatever else they have concocted.

    Joe taxpayer will be on the hook if the plan goes thru, and it won't clear the mess up, just prolong the drop. Take the medicine now (big drop in economy), clear the mess and start fresh . . . course, anytime you have an entity like the Federal Reserve (which is NOT and has NEVER been part of the government) which can print money with no regard for consequences, then there will always be trouble - that is why it was formed, to make $$$$$ for the Fed. Reserve members (the big bank families from way back ) - GO BACK TO THE GOLD STANDARD !!!

    For good review/history lessons, etc. . . . read "The Creature From Jeckyll Island" - or youtube it to find out WHY the GOLD STANDARD should never have been allowed to be removed. . . Fiat money (paper money backed by the government) always seems to blow up at some point . . .
     
  12. B_starinvestor

    B_starinvestor New Member

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    Partisanship aside, here is the deal: The liquidy of those credit markets is like our water supply. If its dried up, the ecosystem dies a quick death. There are several places to point blame in this mess; but the point is that unless we decontaminate our 'water supply' we are not looking at a 'slowdown', we are looking at the D word. Like Warren Buffett says, this will be like a financial Pearl Harbor.

    I don't know if 'bailout' is the appropriate term for this proposal. It's more of an investment by the government. If it doesn't go through, we'll have a helluva lot worse problems than paying down student loans and credit cards.
     
  13. Hockeytiger

    Hockeytiger Active Member

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    Overall, I agree with this sentiment. However, I'm not a fan of the plan as proposed. I like many of the provisions proposed by Congressional Democrats, but I am furious over Sen. Obama's positions and they very well may cause me not to vote for him.

    1) There simply must be oversight over this. I need transparency. Yes Congress will naturally engage in pathetic political posturing in the oversight, but it is the only way I can be reasonably sure the money is being spent semi-responsibly and, sorry, I am simply not going to take the Bush administration's and Wall Street's word for it.

    2) Just like the Chrysler bailout the government needs to take an equity position in the companies disposing of their debt to the government.

    3) There must be changes in compensation packages for executives. Incentives need to be aligned properly so that executives are encouraged to look beyond the next quarter's financial results. Bonuses ought to be based on 3-5 year financial results. The same goes for investors. Capital gains tax rates ought to be much higher for equities sold within 1 or 2 years of purchase, and capital gains ought to be near non-existant for stock held for more than 5 years. This aligns incentives so that both investors and executives are thinking about long term profitability and not short term risky, but highly profitable, ventures.

    4) There must be clawback provisions for executive bonuses. It is simply insane that this isn't already a requirement. Both political parties are to blame for not legislating this much earlier. These financial firms donated a ton of money to both parties to prevent these changes and thus both parties ought to be bitch slapped for thinking about winning elections more than the nation's financial stability.

    5) Absolutely no golden parachutes for executives of these companies.

    6) Change bankruptcy so that it better protects the value of the home, much like corporate bankruptcy works.

    7) And here is where I disagree with Sen. Obama, personal responsibility for this ultimately needs to stay with the borrowers and lenders and not transferred to the taxpayer. I have no problem in creating a system to look over these loans on a case by case basis to determine if fraud occurred by borrower and/or lender and legal accountability ought to brought based on those findings. Remember this was all started by a bunch of "ordinary Americans" who willfully bought more than they could afford, and lenders who assisted them in doing so, and responsibility needs to stay with those parties. Unfortunately, their irresponibilty has impacted the economy as a whole and it needs to be addressed, but I am NOT going to pay someone else mortgage payments because they bought too expensive a house. That is their problem. I'm happy to help them out in bankruptcy, but that's about it. And I'd be more than happy to see the worst offenders (both homeowners and lenders) see some criminal sanctions for their fraudulent actions.
     
  14. Phil Ayesho

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    I agree with most- including Star...

    However.. due to the lack any likely economic prospects in the near future, recovery is going to ve slow even with a bail out.

    IT is essential that the value of the mortgage assets be written DOWN prior to the government paying for them.
    Thee government needs to aggressively HAGGLE these banking assholes DOWN on their claimed value for the assets.

    THis is the only way the government is gonna have a chance at selling them off without a loss.



    And on bankruptcy, Anyone REMEMBER that the republicans had previously practically ELIMINATED citizen access to bankruptcy protection?

    THis administration has fucked us royal and particularly those who bought artificially high priced houses under their "free market" ponsi scam.

    Those folks who lost their homes- 1 in 35 home "owners" across the entire country and the additional 5 in 35 who are teetering on the brink do not even have the option of bankruptcy.

    We need to ERASE every law put on the books by the republican Congress under Bush.

    Those folks need to be given the right to declare bankruptcy, since they had ever reason to accept Secretary Paulson's FREQUENT assurances that the housing sector was "strong".

    Under the circumstances of clear fraud and government de-regulation- hell government led BOOSTERISM encouraging folks to buy ridiculously inflated houses... those families who accepted the deals they had no way of knowing were so shady should be left off the hook...
    And those in peril of losing their homes need to have their loans re-written at zero expense-
    re-written to a DISCOUNTED price.

    IF the fucks making money hand over fist get rescued... then the people they DUPED get rescued.

    You want the taxpayers to save your bacon? The TAXPAYERS get preferential treatment.


    oh- and that Paulson fuck...

    This is a man who on MArch 13th of this year sat on television and told the country that the home and home lending markets were perfomring better than ever and that he foresaw NO problems whatsoever...

    THis is the same fuck who, day before yesterday, sat in front of congress and said that this disaster was the fault of administrations past AND FUTURE!!???

    THis dumb fuck tried to pin the blame on the NEXT administration.

    You absolutely do not give THIS asshole the keys to the vault.


    IF he was too stupid to SEE it happening, too stupid to realize the consequences of relaxed regulation on risky mortgage speculation,
    And too stupid to STOP it....

    AND, the shitforbrains jackass can not even understand the TIME component of causation....

    what the fuck makes Congress think this jagoff is gonna be able to FIX anything?


    The bailout should ONLY happen if this asshole agrees to a permanent proctoscopic implant and film crew recording his every fucking move live on CSPAN, 24-7

    I say the very IDEA that Bush and this criminally ignorant twerp would "demand" absolute unreviewablity by any court or government body is AMPLE reason to not let either on of them anywhere NEAR this problem.

    I say whoever gets the job of fixing this mess get TRUMAN showed-
    I am sick to death of the repiblican "secret" meetings and Opaque government.
     
    #14 Phil Ayesho, Sep 25, 2008
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2008
  15. tripod

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    I want some mutherfuckers to go to goddamn prison for this fiasco!!! :mad:
     
  16. transformer_99

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    You're the perfect example of how it's supposed to work on the individual (micro) economic level vs the macro economic level. Don't know how long it took you to reduce your debt from that roughly $ 100K figure. But to reduce $ 100K of debt in a few years in my estimation would take a decent salary to be able to do that, not many people have that luxury, perhaps even continuity in the workforce with a weaker payscale to accomplish that. And in those cases, those workers should've have realized their employment situations and income level and managed their finances accordingly.

    BTW, you pay off your personal debts, because bankruptcy doesn't work as a solution for the individual. You have to do it at the personal level. The level of this bailout, that's just one big anonymous default. This is like everyone on the highway speeding @ varying speeds over the limit, it's wrong, everyone deserves a ticket for it, but if there's only 1 highway patrolman, how many can he/does he catch, which one's does he choose to catch ?
     
  17. Phil Ayesho

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    Me too!

    Start with Bush and Cheney and ANY sonfabitch who EVER used the term "free market" every again.
     
  18. D_Chocho_Lippz

    D_Chocho_Lippz Account Disabled

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    I graduated college in 2004 and then up until 2006 I racked up about $100k. Then I got out of the military with that much, plus a pending divorce. So, essentially I've paid off all that I have in 2 years. Point being, I didn't go buying what I didn't need. The bulk of my debt was college loans, which I am now using my education to pay for my debt. Hell, I don't even have a TV.... don't need it so I didn't buy it. I'd love to be driving that BMW M3/5 that I can afford, but I don't need it so I don't buy it. I guess my parents taught me to buy withing my means, unlike a lot of these people who bought their McMansions.

    With that said, if this bailout is going to happen, I sure would like to see some people's heads on a platter. Furthermore, I'd like to see the FBI (or whoever) go in and see who is also cooking the books.

    Can't believe I just said that because I am a big advocate of less, less, less government.... I agree with the poster below...

    qtf
     
  19. D_Chocho_Lippz

    D_Chocho_Lippz Account Disabled

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    I can't believe I am going to get into this with you.... but I totally disagree.

    This isn't a failure of the evil "free-market" as you allude... This is the greed of a few bastards doing illegal things to fulfill their greed.
     
  20. Notaguru2

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    Yes, lets do it and make everyone they catch (R's or D's), FAMOUS! Then send them to jail...
     
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