About that $700B...

[VeeP]

The fatalistic choice we've been given is bunk and the other factors you cited are precisely why I remain dubious. They've yet to prove to me that it will do anything but prop things up for a few days, weeks, or even months. Kicking the can down the road is what got us into this mess and thus far I see this as just more of the same.

 

[vortex22222]

I was very upset by Pelosi's comment about the weekend negotiations.

“All of this was done in a way to insulate Main Street and everyday Americans from the crisis on Wall Street,” Ms. Pelosi said at the news conference. “

Do you feel like you have bee insulated?

 

[B_New End]

Well, just when I was about to praise the bipartisan support for this "deal"... breaking news: House republicans have come out this afternoon in opposition once again. Its pretty clear the GOP is playing politics with our livelihood at this point. They are determined to force Pelosi to bring this to a vote without GOP full support. They have the votes to pass this. However, the GOP wants to be able to say that the Dems raised our national debt by $2T over 2 weeks....

I see where this is going. I was hoping it wouldn't. Pelosi should call their bluff and not bring it to a vote and force Bush to get asshat clowns in line.

Yes YES YES!!!

Block that fucking Field Goal.


How is it, in a democracy, where the tide of public opinion is obviously against the bailout.... how is it that they dare ignore us? Has Washington ever known what is best for us?

GOP... let them hang. Make them stand out alone!!!

MAKE THEM TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR BETRAYAL!!

This is a winning situation for the GOP. All they have to do is make the Dems stand alone on this, and act opposed to it, (although, I know they really are not), and they can seriously regain footing in the congressional races. It is in their best interest to make the dems lives and attempts to pass this miserable.

Today, an enemy of my enemy is my friend.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

Seriously?

You honestly think we can let the financial sector fall without a bailout and not have it devastate the general economy?

I suggest you look carefully into the crash of 29.

Unlike people suppose- the Depression did not start the next day...

It took nearly a year before the banking system started to fail nationwide.

In 29- free market idiocy reigned and nothing was done... the dominoes fell, one after another, till they were all down.


The Americans who oppose the bailout are as deluded about free markets as the idiots who created this fiasco.
20 years of Republican propaganda has convinced many Americans that these ideas have some basis in reality.

They do not.

We have two choices- Bite the bullet now, while most folks still have jobs and the economy still has some forward momentum......

Or wait... until unemployment reaches 15% or more and the government can try and get things going from a dead stop with far less revenue.



Has ANYONE seen a cogent analysis of how this sector can be allowed to just fail and the rest of us blithely sail along unaffected?

If so- please post it because I sure as hell can't see anyway out....

 

[Phil Ayesho]

Well, just when I was about to praise the bipartisan support for this "deal"... breaking news: House republicans have come out this afternoon in opposition once again. Its pretty clear the GOP is playing politics with our livelihood at this point. They are determined to force Pelosi to bring this to a vote without GOP full support. They have the votes to pass this. However, the GOP wants to be able to say that the Dems raised our national debt by $2T over 2 weeks....

I see where this is going. I was hoping it wouldn't. Pelosi should call their bluff and not bring it to a vote and force Bush to get asshat clowns in line.

this is just hard line "Free Market" fucks playing to their base.

Pelosi can't pass shit without Bush's signature, or major support from Republicans.

Either way- NO ONE with a brain can hold republican's faultless in this bailout.

Let's not forget that it was REPUBLICANS who Invented the idea of a bailout.
Republican appointees who pitched it ( demanding zero accountability to congress )


In the final analysis, I think BOTH parties have to eat this shit....

But I absolutely do not want ANY free market dipshits of either stripe in the Whitehouse nor in control of congress.

Even moreso than republicans.... the culprit in this disaster has been the Idea of de-regulation and the Free Market Fallacy.

 

[D_Chocho_Lippz]

6

I don't know Veep. It seems to me that the public is in way over its head on this one.

Laying blame is easy, but unfortunately we're all in the same boat. Even absent the bailout, you may have noticed that the latest economic indicators are going way south (dismal August housing data and auto industry on the verge of collapse too, and now getting its own $25bn bailout).

Domi,
Didn't you know that it is no longer being called "the bailout"? It sounds too negative, so they changed it to "the rescue."

Please quit being so negative.

The Americans who oppose the bailout are as deluded about free markets as the idiots who created this fiasco.
20 years of Republican propaganda has convinced many Americans that these ideas have some basis in reality.

If 24% of people support this "rescue" then you are implying that 76% of the people are idiots, Republicans, and free-marketers?

Well Phil, I can always count on you to shower me with compliments!

 

[D_Chocho_Lippz]

Seriously?
Has ANYONE seen a cogent analysis of how this sector can be allowed to just fail and the rest of us blithely sail along unaffected?

If so- please post it because I sure as hell can't see anyway out....

I'm sure you will love this idea.... but I like it...

Looking at it from the outside (Canada), and listening to all sides. It sure seems like the greed and fraud of some have caused this whole mess. No way you can give out loans to people that you KNOW cannot pay them back ! History continues to repeat itself. . . the ONLY sure way to clear up this mess is to let the firms that handed out these bad loans, go bankrupt, and put thier management in jail - for fraud and whatever else they have concocted.

(emphasis mine)

Then....

course, anytime you have an entity like the Federal Reserve (which is NOT and has NEVER been part of the government) which can print money with no regard for consequences, then there will always be trouble - that is why it was formed, to make $$$$$ for the Fed. Reserve members (the big bank families from way back ) - GO BACK TO THE GOLD STANDARD !!!

(emphasis mine)

Also, abolish the Federal Reserve.

And then school everyone on Title 26 of the law, which states that you really don't pay taxes by what the law says - you pay taxes because you are scared of the IRS (If you think I am wrong in that you don't owe taxes, I invite you to prove me wrong).

It is not time to band-aid everything, it is time to change it all.

And BTW, I <3 Plutocracies! They are so hawt!

 

[faceking]

Let's take a breather for blaming Bush and calling for jail time and so forth.

The (liberal) pressure and Acts to provide "affordable housing" for all is what got us into this mess in the first place. That is the seed that planted all this. Let's be clear, real and honest about that.

Banks were penalized and brought to public ridicule if they didn't loan to low-income, minority, inner city applicants. They would pat themselves on the back and publicly market how they've "invested in the community". In fact, Barack Obama helped sued Citi on not giving enough loans to African-American applicants. Democrats pushing, no forcing, that an individual's welfare income... let me say that again, their welfare income should be counted towards their income to qualify for a loan.

Bush proposed an agency in 2003 to provide oversight on Fannie Mae, and saw this coming. Democrats blocked it. Vehemently blocked it. Barney Frank said he was fear-mongering. Democrats said this was a Republican tactic to eliminate affordable housing.

The worse of it all, was when Pelosi said the Democrat party had nothing to do with this.

 

[D_Chocho_Lippz]

Let's take a breather for blaming Bush and calling for jail time and so forth.

The (liberal) pressure and Acts to provide "affordable housing" for all is what got us into this mess in the first place. That is the seed that planted all this. Let's be clear, real and honest about that.

Banks were penalized and brought to public ridicule if they didn't loan to low-income, minority, inner city applicants. They would pat themselves on the back and publicly market how they've "invested in the community". In fact, Barack Obama helped sued Citi on not giving enough loans to African-American applicants. Democrats pushing, no forcing, that an individual's welfare income... let me say that again, their welfare income should be counted towards their income to qualify for a loan.

Bush proposed an agency in 2003 to provide oversight on Fannie Mae, and saw this coming. Democrats blocked it. Vehemently blocked it. Barney Frank said he was fear-mongering. Democrats said this was a Republican tactic to eliminate affordable housing.

The worse of it all, was when Pelosi said the Democrat party had nothing to do with this.

Thank you for preaching to my choir....

I'm sure Phil will be here in 0.843 seconds to refute you though...

 

[transformer_99]

Let's take a breather for blaming Bush and calling for jail time and so forth.

The (liberal) pressure and Acts to provide "affordable housing" for all is what got us into this mess in the first place. That is the seed that planted all this. Let's be clear, real and honest about that.

Banks were penalized and brought to public ridicule if they didn't loan to low-income, minority, inner city applicants. They would pat themselves on the back and publicly market how they've "invested in the community". In fact, Barack Obama helped sued Citi on not giving enough loans to African-American applicants. Democrats pushing, no forcing, that an individual's welfare income... let me say that again, their welfare income should be counted towards their income to qualify for a loan.

Bush proposed an agency in 2003 to provide oversight on Fannie Mae, and saw this coming. Democrats blocked it. Vehemently blocked it. Barney Frank said he was fear-mongering. Democrats said this was a Republican tactic to eliminate affordable housing.

The worse of it all, was when Pelosi said the Democrat party had nothing to do with this.

Nothing wrong with "affordable housing" per se, but that isn't what happened. It's the property flipping too and inflated prices on homes that were never worth that in terms of what Americans earn is a bigger problem in my estimation. American wages and salaries didn't pace inflation for this item (homes) and this is what people bought. Incomes paced things like fuel price increases and food as a percentage of what they earned, not the big ticket items as a mortgage is. $ 1/gallon increase on gasoline isn't nearly as dramatic an influence as several hundred on rent or a mortgage. The latter should be 25-30 % of you monthly expenditures.

When you look at it thru a mortgage calculator, when interest rates dropped, housing was no more affordable because there home prices soared for monthly payments to stay the same. Which is what happens when most people go to buy a car, the dealership is after a monthly payment out of the buyers. There's only so much that the sales price can go up and interest rate drops. In a lot of markets prices of homes triples and quadrupled, there wasn't that big an interest rate drop, so housing became less affordable. Greed is the problem, property flippers that did the Carlton Sheets program are to blame for this, the common American thought each were Donald Trump wanna-be. Those infomercials sold real estate as financial freedom from a day to day job as an employee, everyone was an entrepreneur. Tune in to late night back then and tv was broadcasting that crap until sunrise on as many channels that would sell their slots, today there's only one worm out there selling that and the strategy is to do it with foreclosures as a way to become filthy rich. Today, the others are now trying to sell you Extenzes to increase the size of your penix, or Cindy Crawford is trying to sell you something that'll make you younger. What a "fountain of youth" frauds these people are and the damn networks won't even regulate this kind of nonsense. And we wonder why America needs a $ 700 Billion bailout ?

 

[Notaguru2]

Let's take a breather for blaming Bush and calling for jail time and so forth.

The (liberal) pressure and Acts to provide "affordable housing" for all is what got us into this mess in the first place. That is the seed that planted all this. Let's be clear, real and honest about that.

Banks were penalized and brought to public ridicule if they didn't loan to low-income, minority, inner city applicants. They would pat themselves on the back and publicly market how they've "invested in the community". In fact, Barack Obama helped sued Citi on not giving enough loans to African-American applicants. Democrats pushing, no forcing, that an individual's welfare income... let me say that again, their welfare income should be counted towards their income to qualify for a loan.

Bush proposed an agency in 2003 to provide oversight on Fannie Mae, and saw this coming. Democrats blocked it. Vehemently blocked it. Barney Frank said he was fear-mongering. Democrats said this was a Republican tactic to eliminate affordable housing.

The worse of it all, was when Pelosi said the Democrat party had nothing to do with this.

You can't summarize what lead to this bailout in 2 paragraphs... I don't care who you are or how smart you think you are. Puking conservative talking points doesn't make you an authority on the subject.

The truth will come out and you'll be surprised by the findings.

 

[Drifterwood]

You can't summarize what lead to this bailout in 2 paragraphs....

Capitalism is not based upon capital as such, it is based upon debt, which is the mechanism through which desire attempts to be come reality. Debt is a political tool employed by the US system and backed by the notional value and strength of the US$. For the system to work, amongst other things, debt must be serviced, funds flow and the banking system keeps taking a cut. For debts to be serviced, the debtor must have enough slack in the pie chart of their financial obligations and the debt issuer must be able to maintain the notional value of the instrument, i.e. the US$.

The golden egglaying goose is the US consumer, that is you lot. The banks, your banks, have made the mistake of using the debt tool against the goose, perhaps because the system was in need of debt carriers that just were no longer out there, somewhere else for one reason or another. The very silly thing was to attach the debt to property and people who are vulnerable in their ability to service it because of many external factors, ironically created by your own government. Seems you really can't have your cake and eat it.

 

[Flashy]

Yes YES YES!!!

Block that fucking Field Goal.


How is it, in a democracy, where the tide of public opinion is obviously against the bailout.... how is it that they dare ignore us? Has Washington ever known what is best for us?

GOP... let them hang. Make them stand out alone!!!

MAKE THEM TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR BETRAYAL!!

This is a winning situation for the GOP. All they have to do is make the Dems stand alone on this, and act opposed to it, (although, I know they really are not), and they can seriously regain footing in the congressional races. It is in their best interest to make the dems lives and attempts to pass this miserable.

Today, an enemy of my enemy is my friend.

you sir, are a moron.


I take issue with Phil on many things, but his view on this is correct.

without this bailout, the economy will collapse. period.

you and your hat, should stick to keeping your own counsel quiet, since you have zero clue about the financial system or the further ramifications of a failure to bailout this sector.

 

[B_New End]

Seriously?

You honestly think we can let the financial sector fall without a bailout and not have it devastate the general economy?

1. it aint 1929
2. the bailout may make things worse, much worse, and the chances of this are high
3. the depression was not ended by a big bank bail out, it was ended by the new deal, and ultimately WW II

 

[dreamer20]

Bush proposed an agency in 2003 to provide oversight on Fannie Mae, "and saw this coming".

New Agency Proposed to Oversee Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae - New York Times


G.W.Bush, who engaged the U.S. in two wars, increased government spending, increased the size of the government via borrowed funds and consistently claimed the economy was strong until this September saw this present crisis coming circa 2003? His words show that he did not:

YouTube - McCain: Out of Touch

If he had known of this crisis from that time he'd have been lying to the public for many years. Also a new regulatory agency would have been redundant as The Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight, an agency within HUD, already existed to regulate Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. Note that The United States Department of Housing, aka HUD, is a Cabinet department of the United States federal government. In 2003 this body failed to detect the irregularities which were going on for several years at Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. They were discovered by outside investigators in the same year. Then and now the lax attitude of the Bush Administration towards oversight and correcting mismanagement allowed the toxic debts of these agencies to spiral unchecked and cause this dreadful economic crisis.

Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[D_Chocho_Lippz]

Can't argue with video...
Post anything to the contrary....

YouTube - Shocking Video Unearthed Democrats in their own words Covering up the Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac Scam that caused our Economic Crisis

 

[Notaguru2]

Can't argue with video...
Post anything to the contrary....

YouTube - Shocking Video Unearthed Democrats in their own words Covering up the Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac Scam that caused our Economic Crisis

I'll take a stab. A video comprised of spliced 10 second sound bites doesn't constitute the "record". If you believe this, then you'd think the GOP doesn't have anything to do with whats going on, but its quite the contrary.

Nice try.. not biting. But, if it helps you sleep better at night and justify voting for Retardicans, then go for it.

 

[Flashy]

I'll take a stab. A video comprised of spliced 10 second sound bites doesn't constitute the "record". If you believe this, then you'd think the GOP doesn't have anything to do with whats going on, but its quite the contrary.

Nice try.. not biting. But, if it helps you sleep better at night and justify voting for Retardicans, then go for it.

well, i do not think the video is attempting to justify a vote for a republicans, so much as it is showing the fact that the Democrats have no right to attempt to weasel out of the equal blame for this mess, and they must take their medicine, especially when they are on record...

when even Clinton says it at the end, the facts are undeniable.

 

[B_New End]

Anybody trying to pin this crisis on anything but the entire lot of bankers and politicians is just a partisan hack.

 

[VeeP]

Anybody trying to pin this crisis on anything but the entire lot of bankers and politicians is just a partisan hack.

You forgot special interest groups and lobbyists.