Abu Gharib returns....
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madame_zora
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Dr. Bubbles, you spoke much more solemnly than I could have.
I think it is important to have these discussions from time to time, but I think that having them as a matter of a steady diet here is pointless. It's important for the voices of racists to be heard, so that they can let the world know just how ugly they are. It is to my great satisfaction that this one person who trolls the entire board has not drawn an ounce of support from anyone. We have a membership of over 9000, though most do not post, our readership here is large enough to be somewhat influential.
The fact that several of us have engaged him in conversation has allowed him the opportunity to expound on his position at great length. I never saw him say one thing that made me care about his thoughts or think he had any valid reasoning at all. Being that I am more interested in psychology, he was never able to answer the question, "why?". When a person of a certain ethnic category proclaims their own superiority, sane thinking people everywhere grab their stomachs and laugh. I think I must remember this, engaging the preposterous with serious conversation is like casting pearls before swine.
There is no way for a racist to lay out his argument in a non-insulting way, because the very premise is so completely insulting. Therefore, it doesn't matter what verbage is used, how delicately the issue unfolds, the slap in the face remains what it is, and the giver must then be prepared to receive. In usual fashion, this one does not. He points out the angry responses he draws as if it is unwarranted, as if negating a person's worth is a fair topic for calm conversation. This is MY big beef (well, one of them), if it's okay for someone to tell ME that they are better than me because they were born with melanin-deficient skin, then it's okay for me to tell them how completely insane they are. If they don't want to hear that, they shouldn't open their mouth to spout out words of hatred and non-acceptance. Despite whatever tone they use, their message is far more incindiary than my rebuttal.
And now I think it's time to end The Chimera Show. It's easy to forget that what we're dealing with is one unhappy 15 year old child against the whole board. Come on folks, he got us pretty good. I support free speech as vehemently as anyone, so if he insists of speaking about nothing but racism for the next hundred years, that's okay with me because obviously he has failed to notice that no one is agreeing. I will add no more than sarcastic remarks, because this schlock is not worth any more effort than that.
I think it is important to have these discussions from time to time, but I think that having them as a matter of a steady diet here is pointless. It's important for the voices of racists to be heard, so that they can let the world know just how ugly they are. It is to my great satisfaction that this one person who trolls the entire board has not drawn an ounce of support from anyone. We have a membership of over 9000, though most do not post, our readership here is large enough to be somewhat influential.
The fact that several of us have engaged him in conversation has allowed him the opportunity to expound on his position at great length. I never saw him say one thing that made me care about his thoughts or think he had any valid reasoning at all. Being that I am more interested in psychology, he was never able to answer the question, "why?". When a person of a certain ethnic category proclaims their own superiority, sane thinking people everywhere grab their stomachs and laugh. I think I must remember this, engaging the preposterous with serious conversation is like casting pearls before swine.
There is no way for a racist to lay out his argument in a non-insulting way, because the very premise is so completely insulting. Therefore, it doesn't matter what verbage is used, how delicately the issue unfolds, the slap in the face remains what it is, and the giver must then be prepared to receive. In usual fashion, this one does not. He points out the angry responses he draws as if it is unwarranted, as if negating a person's worth is a fair topic for calm conversation. This is MY big beef (well, one of them), if it's okay for someone to tell ME that they are better than me because they were born with melanin-deficient skin, then it's okay for me to tell them how completely insane they are. If they don't want to hear that, they shouldn't open their mouth to spout out words of hatred and non-acceptance. Despite whatever tone they use, their message is far more incindiary than my rebuttal.
And now I think it's time to end The Chimera Show. It's easy to forget that what we're dealing with is one unhappy 15 year old child against the whole board. Come on folks, he got us pretty good. I support free speech as vehemently as anyone, so if he insists of speaking about nothing but racism for the next hundred years, that's okay with me because obviously he has failed to notice that no one is agreeing. I will add no more than sarcastic remarks, because this schlock is not worth any more effort than that.
I just read that Senate Majority Leader Frist [R, TN] pulled the Defense Authorization Bill because Sens. Graham, McCain, and Warner's amendments regarding the treatment of prisoners and the conduct of interrogations were not defeated and remain attached to the bill. Therefore, they would be expected to be passed and become either the law of the land or perhaps, face Presidential veto.
The Senate will take up the reauthorization bill again in September after some serious arm twisting.
I plan to write my Senators and Congressman and urge them to support Legislation that perhaps would prevent the torture, ridicule, and degradation of prisoners and those being interrogated. I urge you to do the same.
Only the intellectually and ethically impaired would argue that this is not needed.
jay
The Senate will take up the reauthorization bill again in September after some serious arm twisting.
I plan to write my Senators and Congressman and urge them to support Legislation that perhaps would prevent the torture, ridicule, and degradation of prisoners and those being interrogated. I urge you to do the same.
Only the intellectually and ethically impaired would argue that this is not needed.
jay
In the year 1942 a German sub placed 8 Nazis on beaches in New York and Florida. Roosevelt ordered a secret military tribunal and, after about 60 days from when it began, 6 of the 8 were executed. They had not killed anyone, bombed anything, or done squat, just landed in this country. Just being a Nazi and being here in our country was enough to execute them.
We didn't worry then about reaction in Germany to our treatment of German soldiers...we were at war with them.
Does that mean we should now execute every terrorist or supposed terrorist we come across? No, of course not. There is a more humane way of dealing with those that need to be separated from the battlefield. Is it fair to lock someone up permanently inside a cell? Well, life ain't always fair. Perhaps they should have turned a deaf ear towards hatred and they'd not be in a situation to be locked up for life. The United States is not to blame for all the world's problems. Maybe some of these should direct a small degree of this hatred they feel for us at their own governments and effect change but that would be too difficult...easier to blame the US for everything bad in the world.
A reasonable debate can be had if the subject is what is fair treatment of detainees. The military should not have a blank check to torture, harass, or defile at will anyone they see fit. Guidelines should exist. Investigations have been done in Baghdad and at Gitmo and corrective behavior is being implemented. Many senators and reps that intially knee-jerked and said we should close gitmo now have backed off that assertion. What many of you lament is that the findings of the investigations didn't result in President Bush being led around naked on a leash like some of the stupid personnel in the military did to detainees at Abu Ghraib.
Interrogation tactics...should there be interrogation tactics used that the rest of us are unaware of, unless we're personally involved inside the US government? I'd say, emphatically, YES. Remember, these people are not being detained simply because of their skin color, as some here love to recount like a fable from childhood. They're not being detained because they're from a foreign country. They were not taken prisoner because of unpaid traffic tickets.
They are followers of radical Islam and have committed themselves to doing anything they can to destroy our way of life. If that isn't cause for alarm, to put it mildly, then excuse me and many others for thinking so. There is adequate space for a debate of how to fairly treat captured terrorists, so long as the words "captured terrorists" don't get lost in that debate.
We didn't worry then about reaction in Germany to our treatment of German soldiers...we were at war with them.
Does that mean we should now execute every terrorist or supposed terrorist we come across? No, of course not. There is a more humane way of dealing with those that need to be separated from the battlefield. Is it fair to lock someone up permanently inside a cell? Well, life ain't always fair. Perhaps they should have turned a deaf ear towards hatred and they'd not be in a situation to be locked up for life. The United States is not to blame for all the world's problems. Maybe some of these should direct a small degree of this hatred they feel for us at their own governments and effect change but that would be too difficult...easier to blame the US for everything bad in the world.
A reasonable debate can be had if the subject is what is fair treatment of detainees. The military should not have a blank check to torture, harass, or defile at will anyone they see fit. Guidelines should exist. Investigations have been done in Baghdad and at Gitmo and corrective behavior is being implemented. Many senators and reps that intially knee-jerked and said we should close gitmo now have backed off that assertion. What many of you lament is that the findings of the investigations didn't result in President Bush being led around naked on a leash like some of the stupid personnel in the military did to detainees at Abu Ghraib.
Interrogation tactics...should there be interrogation tactics used that the rest of us are unaware of, unless we're personally involved inside the US government? I'd say, emphatically, YES. Remember, these people are not being detained simply because of their skin color, as some here love to recount like a fable from childhood. They're not being detained because they're from a foreign country. They were not taken prisoner because of unpaid traffic tickets.
They are followers of radical Islam and have committed themselves to doing anything they can to destroy our way of life. If that isn't cause for alarm, to put it mildly, then excuse me and many others for thinking so. There is adequate space for a debate of how to fairly treat captured terrorists, so long as the words "captured terrorists" don't get lost in that debate.
priceless.
<!--QuoteBegin-brainzz_n_dong@Jul 27 2005, 11:54 PM
Does that mean we should now execute every terrorist or supposed terrorist we come across? No, of course not. There is a more humane way of dealing with those that need to be separated from the battlefield. Is it fair to lock someone up permanently inside a cell? Well, life ain't always fair. Perhaps they should have turned a deaf ear towards hatred and they'd not be in a situation to be locked up for life. The United States is not to blame for all the world's problems.[/quote]
... however, the US and UK are almost entirely to blame for fucking up the middle east and creating this situation in the first place. personally I think the only effective solution will be to nuke everything between the mediterranean and the himalayas, but let's at least learn from our mistakes instead of repeating them.
IMHO there is a huge, big, fat, f'n difference between WWII and the unwarranted invasion and occupation of a sovereign nation. ALL the intelligence, both ours and the rest of the worlds absolutely was convincing that Iraq posed no threat after being completely contained for over 10 years. I just don't think there is much to compare. September 11 certainly provided NO JUSTIFICATION for the questionable, if not completely illegal and immoral invasion of Iraq. I'm not saying he wasn't evil to the core, he was and he needed to be deposed. But this?
Ossama who???????????????????????
Ossama who???????????????????????
he did? looking at the state of iraq now, that's not a very convincing argument. apart from the economic considerations, we're now finding out the hard way (despite being warned for over a decade) that the only thing keeping the lid on islamic fundamentalist extremism in iraq was - you guessed it - the hussein government. in terms of terrorist threats to the US, we would have been SAFER leaving saddam in power than removing him.
and if you want to take the moral standpoint, well ... I can point at you at several dozen despots and theocrats across the world who've already racked up far more, and far worse, human rights abuses than saddam could ever have managed (and without even counting the american and british governments!
he did? looking at the state of iraq now, that's not a very convincing argument. apart from the economic considerations, we're now finding out the hard way (despite being warned for over a decade) that the only thing keeping the lid on islamic fundamentalist extremism in iraq was - you guessed it - the hussein government. in terms of terrorist threats to the US, we would have been SAFER leaving saddam in power than removing him.
and if you want to take the moral standpoint, well ... I can point at you at several dozen despots and theocrats across the world who've already racked up far more, and far worse, human rights abuses than saddam could ever have managed (and without even counting the american and british governments!
[post=332299]Quoted post[/post]
[/b][/quote]So, dear Dr., what are we in disagreement about? Other than our slight differing opinion on Saddam (who did murder a million or so people) we have nothing to argue about. We were much safer 4 1/2 years ago. Now they are ALL focused on us, working in concert instead of spending the bulk of their resources killing each other. The "extremists" or "evildoers" (dontcha' just love that), for the most part are based in, financed by and working out of countries we support.
And Ossama? Hell, he's a member of the Bush family! (BinLaden, Bush, Saudi's, oil, money, control of Iraq. Get it everybody?)
Rikter8
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Couldnt have stated it better.
The Bush's are too obsessed with Oil and trying to live up to the Kennedy Legacy.
Its just an excuse for him to rip off the american public.
We can only pray that nobody will be dumb enough to Vote for Jeb Bush.
I guess this thread is really touchy, on racism, and hatred etc etc etc....
Ok Guys and girls....Hold back the flame throwers...Just listen to my opinion:
Honestly, the older I get, the more racially fired I get.
I dont have a problem with Blacks, and hispanics, its when they abuse the system fully to get what they want, which gets me fired.
Currently our organization was forced to hire "Minority services students".
We hired 2, and it was a huge mistake we need to live with daily, until they quit.
If they worked, or wanted to put forth effort, it would be different. But they are there because they are Black - and they make that clearly known.
Blacks say they are at a dissadvantage from whites.
If College Cost the same for Everybody... its EQUAL OPPORTUNITY for an education. So why have Minority Services?
Why the right to lessened cost for education and housing?
Why the right not to carry auto insurance because of your skin color?
Why the right to shout "Racism", and everyone bows to your feet?
If a well educated hispanic or black man/woman has the criteria, and the tact, they'll get the job.
If you come in talking like a Yubangee, wearing droopy drawrs and talk like "Wut up DAWG"... sorry...your not business material.
News flash...its NOT because of your skin..its because your a BUM!
With the american work force as hot as a texas griddle, you need to come prepared to be the BEST fit for the job. No employer lean on resources can afford someone that is a soggy fit for the position.
I recently spoke to a black student at my organization, and he was looking at the new 06 Caddy. He stated "This here be a lifetime achievement".
A Caddilac Deville???? A lifetime achievement???
Is this what the parents are teaching them? To own caddy's and live in the ghetto?
Shouldn't their priorities be Finishing School, and going to college to be a PRODUCTIVE citizen?
Yea...everybody's got Auto dreams...but a FWD caddy....good grief.
My opinion is, get rid of all these "Racism Laws", and put everyone on a LEVEL playing field. Everybody pays the same, treated the same, works the same amount.
I believe then, and only then will you start to diminish the hatred amongst blacks,whites, foreigners, because everyone would be EQUAL.
The Bush's are too obsessed with Oil and trying to live up to the Kennedy Legacy.
Its just an excuse for him to rip off the american public.
We can only pray that nobody will be dumb enough to Vote for Jeb Bush.
I guess this thread is really touchy, on racism, and hatred etc etc etc....
Ok Guys and girls....Hold back the flame throwers...Just listen to my opinion:
Honestly, the older I get, the more racially fired I get.
I dont have a problem with Blacks, and hispanics, its when they abuse the system fully to get what they want, which gets me fired.
Currently our organization was forced to hire "Minority services students".
We hired 2, and it was a huge mistake we need to live with daily, until they quit.
If they worked, or wanted to put forth effort, it would be different. But they are there because they are Black - and they make that clearly known.
Blacks say they are at a dissadvantage from whites.
If College Cost the same for Everybody... its EQUAL OPPORTUNITY for an education. So why have Minority Services?
Why the right to lessened cost for education and housing?
Why the right not to carry auto insurance because of your skin color?
Why the right to shout "Racism", and everyone bows to your feet?
If a well educated hispanic or black man/woman has the criteria, and the tact, they'll get the job.
If you come in talking like a Yubangee, wearing droopy drawrs and talk like "Wut up DAWG"... sorry...your not business material.
News flash...its NOT because of your skin..its because your a BUM!
With the american work force as hot as a texas griddle, you need to come prepared to be the BEST fit for the job. No employer lean on resources can afford someone that is a soggy fit for the position.
I recently spoke to a black student at my organization, and he was looking at the new 06 Caddy. He stated "This here be a lifetime achievement".
A Caddilac Deville???? A lifetime achievement???
Is this what the parents are teaching them? To own caddy's and live in the ghetto?
Shouldn't their priorities be Finishing School, and going to college to be a PRODUCTIVE citizen?
Yea...everybody's got Auto dreams...but a FWD caddy....good grief.
My opinion is, get rid of all these "Racism Laws", and put everyone on a LEVEL playing field. Everybody pays the same, treated the same, works the same amount.
I believe then, and only then will you start to diminish the hatred amongst blacks,whites, foreigners, because everyone would be EQUAL.
A naked Dubya on a lease? YECH!!
uke: Sorry to contradict but that is not one of my fantasies....or is it likely to be.If you doubt that people of color have been detained and prosecuted to "solve" unsolved crimes in this country, then you need to read some American history.
Jose Padilla is a natural-born citizen who has been held as a material witness for a couple of years. What for? Well, no one knows...not even the courts. Much if not all of this time is in solitary confinement. Prolonged solitary confinement is considered to be torture. Equally important is that his first amendment rights under due process, right to a speedy trial, and to confront his accusers in court have been violated. Are these acts necessary to protect our way of life? I think not.
jay
I don't think our society could practice equality.
Why? It's simple. You know I'm not white because I don't like. I have hair texture because my hair doesn't fall neatly past my collar. I don't know how the majority feels about most things because I've never been a part of it. And who is to say which dreams, ideals, and visions are valid? I wouldn't drive a Caddy; I don't do well in land yachts. But I wouldn't besiege my brutha man if that's his thang.
Equality doesn't have a lot of room or tolerance, ironically, for people of difference. Isn't difference one of the fundamental aspects of this so-called race stuff? The fact that people like me won't ever be confused for white because, side by side, I really stand out in contrast.
Is it because I learned how to get in touch with my ethnicity by going to a pretty lily-white university where I saw nothin' but a bunch of rich white preppy kids who didn't know how to be real, let alone humble or inquisitive or open? If anything, made me damn proud to grow up in a single parent, racially mixed, rub-two-nickels kinda home.
Equality would only work in a society in which everybody essentially looked, talked, and felt the same -- a society of robots. A LEVEL playing field is a myth so long as we identify others in contrast to ourselves, so long as we devalue certain characteristics (black, poor, blue-collar) over others (white, rich, white-collar). Don't get me wrong. I'd love to live in a meritocracy, but I'm really skeptical about its existence...
You'll extinguish hatred when you extinguish vocabulary. Color-blind? Get RID of race.
Not that you can't be proud of who you are, but don't be so quick to tie hair or nails or skin tone or achievements or beauty or substance or inherent worth to just a small fragment of your DNA.
You can teach your children legacy... but even then... would our kids know better? It's sad, really. I think kids are pretty innocent about race and exemplify some of the very best of human conduct, sometimes -- sharing, honesty, acceptance.
Again... way too hard to fathom these things...
Why? It's simple. You know I'm not white because I don't like. I have hair texture because my hair doesn't fall neatly past my collar. I don't know how the majority feels about most things because I've never been a part of it. And who is to say which dreams, ideals, and visions are valid? I wouldn't drive a Caddy; I don't do well in land yachts. But I wouldn't besiege my brutha man if that's his thang.
Equality doesn't have a lot of room or tolerance, ironically, for people of difference. Isn't difference one of the fundamental aspects of this so-called race stuff? The fact that people like me won't ever be confused for white because, side by side, I really stand out in contrast.
Is it because I learned how to get in touch with my ethnicity by going to a pretty lily-white university where I saw nothin' but a bunch of rich white preppy kids who didn't know how to be real, let alone humble or inquisitive or open? If anything, made me damn proud to grow up in a single parent, racially mixed, rub-two-nickels kinda home.
Equality would only work in a society in which everybody essentially looked, talked, and felt the same -- a society of robots. A LEVEL playing field is a myth so long as we identify others in contrast to ourselves, so long as we devalue certain characteristics (black, poor, blue-collar) over others (white, rich, white-collar). Don't get me wrong. I'd love to live in a meritocracy, but I'm really skeptical about its existence...
You'll extinguish hatred when you extinguish vocabulary. Color-blind? Get RID of race.
Not that you can't be proud of who you are, but don't be so quick to tie hair or nails or skin tone or achievements or beauty or substance or inherent worth to just a small fragment of your DNA.
You can teach your children legacy... but even then... would our kids know better? It's sad, really. I think kids are pretty innocent about race and exemplify some of the very best of human conduct, sometimes -- sharing, honesty, acceptance.
Again... way too hard to fathom these things...
SpeedoGuy
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I'd say emphatically no. If our treatment of prisoners is too shameful to be discussed publicly, then we ought to re-think our methods.
How could we know just what they're being held for? With all the hush surrounding military tribunals (secret trials, secret evidence, indefinite detentions, etc) how does anyone know what the hell is going on?
Are you really saying you'd simply trust an administration already guilty of outrages like Abu Ghraib to do what's right without any transparency or accountability? If so, I don't share your faith in politicians, particularly those at the helm right now.
<!--QuoteBegin-brainzz_n_dong@Jul 27 2005, 11:54 PM
They are followers of radical Islam and have committed themselves to doing anything they can to destroy our way of life. If that isn't cause for alarm, to put it mildly, then excuse me and many others for thinking so.
[/quote]
I'm equally alarmed by the prospect of constitutional protections that are eroding as we speak. Secret trials, indefinite detentions, government serveillance, etc. Can any American not be alarmed by this trend?
SG
madame_zora
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madame_zora
Sexy Member
Not that I want it to happen this way but how likely are certain attitudes to change after somebody blows himself up in the Mall of America (or Six Flags or the Lincoln Memorial or a flea market) and takes out one of your loved ones.
Suddenly, rounding up his fellow conspirators will be paramount and not having to worry about an idiot judge granting them all bail or throwing out their detainment on some courthouse technicality will be a comfort.
Times are changing, folks. We either get bogged down in philosophical thumb twiddling or we roll up our sleeves and fight back.
Suddenly, rounding up his fellow conspirators will be paramount and not having to worry about an idiot judge granting them all bail or throwing out their detainment on some courthouse technicality will be a comfort.
Times are changing, folks. We either get bogged down in philosophical thumb twiddling or we roll up our sleeves and fight back.