Abu Ghraib

[jay_too]

Originally posted by Javierdude22@May 8 2004, 07:48 PM
Ive learned from this that these rights do not count for non-Americans.

I have been apalled by the way American citizens have been treated. Some have been denied access to a lawyer for months. At some point I predict that the pictures of the nude American Taliban will become available on the internet. Softening up the prisoners has been repeatedly mentioned in regard to Afghanistan and Gitmo. I hope that the promises by the administration to end prisoner abuse include prisoners held in Afghanistan and Gitmo. The only reason that I still have concern is that NOW cameras and cam corders are forbidden in military prisons. I hope that it is to protect the dignity and privacy of the detainees and NOT to prevent the graphic recording of incidents of abuse.

Bush, Rumsfeld, and Ashcroft have made us all less safe: less safe domestically in the guarantee of civil and individual rights; less safe when on travel [for some of the 2 billion muslims, it is pay-back time for America]; and less safe in foreign courts of law.

jay

 

[KinkGuy]

Originally posted by jay_too+May 8 2004, 08:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (jay_too @ May 8 2004, 08:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Javierdude22@May 8 2004, 07:48 PM
Ive learned from this that these rights do not count for non-Americans.

Bush, Rumsfeld, and Ashcroft have made us all less safe: less safe domestically in the guarantee of civil and individual rights; less safe when on travel [for some of the 2 billion muslims, it is pay-back time for America]; and less safe in foreign courts of law.

jay [/b][/quote]
Excellent view, Javierdude. This morally reprehensible action on the part of the US, of which I am totally ashamed, has only managed to excalate the world wide hatred, disdain and mistrust of America. And as you said, put us ALL in harms way. Who is going to be able to support us now knowing that any country supporting the US is in extreme danger. :angry:

 

[lacsap1]

Originally posted by KinkGuy@May 8 2004, 09:53 PM
This morally reprehensible action on the part of the US, of which I am totally ashamed, has only managed to excalate the world wide hatred, disdain and mistrust of America. And as you said, put us ALL in harms way. Who is going to be able to support us now knowing that any country supporting the US is in extreme danger.

If it is indeed stability and democratic peace that Americans and their administration want, then they should slow down and follow the model laid out by their European counterparts who have already achieved it. The contradictions in American political thought and rhetoric are so well defined from across the Atlantic that it really seems quite strange and a little scary that such a conservative and fundamentalist US nation should dominate the world system. This is the reason why the world is so wurried of American power, and the reason why they often dismiss our unique proceedings as simply "typical American".

That&#39;s just typical American politics, we say in Europe. When you look over the political events that unfolded in the United States over the past month and, much like many other Europeans, I find myself quite surprised by many of the political aberrations that I have observed; the election of Ah-nold Schwarzenegger to the California governorship, the return of the US to the UN Security Council to appeal for help in Iraq, Washington&#39;s arbitrary and aggressive Middle East policy, the continued presence of the Bush administration in power in the White House, and ten candidates fighting for power from a single party in a primary election????

The most perplexing aspect of American political happenings is the fact that they are tolerated by the American public despite contrasting sharply with the general notions of ethical and beneficial behavior in the realm of world politics. Rather than promoting a profitable regime of international cooperation and political reconciliation like the rest of the world&#39;s other developed nations, the United States instead moves to push the international system into a single line of thought. The natural conclusion associated with this phenomenon is that either the American public is extremely politically active but misaligned in its perception of world affairs, or that it is so politically apathetic that it allows its leaders to use national institutions and resources to pursue their own personal goals. Regardless of which of these two deductions is closer to the truth, it is indeed quite startling, and admittedly even a bit laughable, to follow American politics from Europe.

A perfect example of backward American thinking is the recently passed ban on partial abortions by the U.S. Congress. Most Europeans wonder why the nation that claims to be the vanguard of tolerance and societal advancement would be taking such drastic steps backward in terms of human rights and liberal thought?
An issue of greater European concern is that of the U.S. policy in the Middle East. European nations and citizens were overwhelmingly in opposition of the U.S. invasion of Iraq. Take, for example, the seemingly arbitrary anti-Syria campaign occurring right now both in the White House and Senate, it would entail severe sanctions against Syria including freezing of their US assets, a stop on investment in Syria, and a ban on Syrian airlines in the US. The peculiar detail is that Syria has done nothing wrong. The only thing that has changed is the attitude of the Bush junta and their need for answers to an increasingly discontented world.

However, one may notice that during the Clinton years even the US began to exist in harmony with the global system of economic prosperity and multilateral diplomacy. What a bizarre place the States must really be, these things would never be allowed to happen anywhere else in the world....

 

[MisterMark]

I think a lot of us feel helpless about American politics. I truly believe that the two-party system is a failed model, or at least outdated.

I have grown to feel out of place in the U.S., even though I&#39;ve lived my entire life here. I can&#39;t imagine continuing to live here if George Bush wins again this November.

 

[KinkGuy]

lacsap1, very eloquent, very insightful. Many, many of us look upon what has ocurred here over the last three years with fear, horror and shock. Can we come live with you? :unsure: (As a gay man, I may have to if the bush regime gains another four years). :angry:

 

[jay_too]

Today in the NY Times is the story of the frustration that ended in a family member of a soldier facing disciplinary action going public on 60 Minutes. It is not a pretty story, but perhaps, it shows the quality of leaders that America elects. With leaders like these, who needs enemies?

This quote summarizes one of the points:

The photographs have now turned soldiers like Mr. Lawson&#39;s nephew, Staff Sgt. Ivan Frederick, and Pfc. Lynndie R. England into graphic symbols of military abuse. But for Mr. Lawson, they are evidence of a complete breakdown in training and authority in the Iraqi prison system.
He shared his frustration in his March 23 e-mail message to Mr. Hackworth&#39;s Web site, writing: "We have contacted the Red Cross, Congress both parties, Bill O&#39;Reilly and many others. Nobody wants to touch this."

jay

 

[lacsap1]

Originally posted by KinkGuy@May 9 2004, 04:54 AM
Can we come live with you? (As a gay man, I may have to if the bush regime gains another four years).

Unfortunately, you can&#39;t because your are not an holder of an European passport.

What can do;

Try to apply for a "werkverguning" (green card) and a Dutch international company, like Heineken/Amstel, Philips
or try to find a marriageable Dutchman

Unfortunately, you can&#39;t because your are not a bearer of Dutch nor any European passport.

What can you do;

Try to apply for a "werkverguning" (green card) via Dutch international companies, like Heineken/Amstel, Philips or Shell or try to find a marriageable Dutch(man). As you probably know, gay marriage is fully integrated in our liberal democracy.

But why move and run away, like Mark or in another post in this Et Cetera page,
I think it&#39;s time to change your 2-party system.....so you should be on the barricades.....

 

[D_Humper E Bogart]

Kinkguy, I&#39;m not aiming to cause offence, I&#39;m saying that "nothing happens until you are caught". There&#39;s no point moaning about what I believe is inevitable.

 

[mindseye]

White House press secretary Scott McLellan issued a statement today that the execution of Nick Berg showed "the true nature of the enemies of freedom".

So, when they do it, it&#39;s their "true nature", and when we do it, it&#39;s "just a few bad apples".

 

[Pecker]

I must have slept through the last time the US sawed off a prisoner&#39;s head on the internet.

Pecker

 

[jonb]

Oh, I heard them suggest that to explain it to kids, we associate it with things in their own lives. Are these the kids from Lord of the Flies?

 

[13788]

Javierdude22: Pecker,

-True Nature- isnt defined by the severity of the crime, but by the crime itsself. I think that makes the American acts and the be-heading of Nicholas Berg equally wrong in itsself, whatever the level of cruelty.

America should be careful of the double standard it is applying in this war, and in foreign politics. Itll come back to bite them in the ass.

 

[13788]

Javierdude22: Just quickly,

I just saw the entire video of Nick Berg...it is the most awful and disgusting thing Ive ever seen.

 

[jay_too]

Originally posted by bilbobagginsx@May 12 2004, 11:08 PM
I must have slept through the last time the US sawed off a prisoner&#39;s head on the internet.

Of course in most cultures, death is preferable to dishonor. One of the Iraqi abused apparently begged them "to shoot me between the eyes; don&#39;t do this to me."

One American Senator [McCain] was agitated by the pictures and reports of prisoner abuse and pointed out that in Vietnam he was tortured but not humiliated.

I think you should re-think your position.

jay

 

[13788]

Javierdude22: I am seriously interested in the new article by the New Yorker claiming the practices were policy made by Rumsfeld.

I hope it&#39;s credible though...

 

[D_Humper E Bogart]

Blah.

If you seriously believe that in war "we play by the rules" then we need to play more violent computer games.

Nothing is done by accident, everything has a reason and a purpose, have you ever considered the emotional state of people ordered to torture, the emotional state of people who have to kill?

I read a newspaper article where a so-called psychiatrist was asking "could we all be torturers?" I was so offended I was tempted to write in to complain. Because the suffering of others is NOT human nature. How many people would randomly pick a person they didn&#39;t hate and torture them with sexual gratification and humiliation till the victim cracked? It&#39;s not something you do for fun, unless you already believe that it is. Even with the knifing, it&#39;s easier to kill than it is to torture, I mean, how many people could shoot a cow, compared to the numbers who would bleed it to death with a kitchen knife and laugh while it gores itself slowly?

My point?

Shit happens.

 

[13788]

Javierdude22:

Originally posted by ORCABOMBER@May 17 2004, 08:06 AM
My point?

Shit happens.

Sure that is true, and if it were indeed something done against the rules by a few soldiers, than that&#39;s what I would say as well, shit happens, they shouldn&#39;t have done it, but it&#39;s a war.

However, if a government systematically ordered torture as a tool to get the information you need (according to todays New Yorker) and systematically ignores the Geneva Conventions on &#39;terrorists&#39; (according to Newsweek) than I think things are a little different. Why? Because Rumsfeld isnt the one contstantly in the field, nor is any other Pentagon official, and by sending out these messages, and pictures, you endanger the lives of American soldiers, as well as the ones of my country, Italy, Poland etc. It is the last thing you want a people you are trying to convince your good nature to, to see. Seeing it, means more revolt, more willingness to fight the çoalition&#39; forces, more willingness to use suicide attacks. My God, those pictures are an indirect job application procedure &#39;looking for new Jihad recruits&#39;. Believe me, those pictures made sure enough people applied.

The penpushers without any sense of culture, social behavioral patterns, and psychology sicken me. All they see is oil interests, political interests, and God knows what else. But it&#39;s not them having to deal with any of the consequences. Protected by a conservative government with ostridge like tendencies to stick their heads in the ground, and the unwillingness to take responsibility for their actions (Rumsie) means they will never have to deal with the consequences either.

And then they think it&#39;s weird they still encounter so much opposition from Iraqi people. 82% of the Iraqi people highly distrust American motives of being in Iraq, 60 something percent wants them out. The security forces are a joke, well, at least you would think they would actually provide security.

But no, Berg somhow slips away from their &#39;security&#39; and the governing council they appointed is now booking flights back to the asylum countries they resided in before after the killing of the head of the council.

Stop Bush, think before you take another action, and remember the media are watching. So maybe you wanna stick to the rules this time, forge ACTUAL alliances based on mutual respect and listening, and think your next steps through militarily, and then the social, pshycological, and cultural consequences they may have.

O well..

 

[D_Humper E Bogart]

It&#39;s quite worrying that soldiers are most likely under increased risk. But lets put it this way, they&#39;re not torturing POWs, they&#39;re torturing Civvies and Terrorists/illegal combatants/whatever they&#39;ll be called next, any other country who did that would immediately be declared war apon.

With all the ho-hawing about how we&#39;re going to save the universe from Islam, what did people expect? The "Coalition of the mighty&#39;s" greatest flaw is that they took the moral high ground, when war is bloody, filthy and wretched.

The US and UK do not have the reputation for being "whiter than white" and the intelligant Iraqi population probably understand (and in the sour cases) take advantage of that.

 

[jonb]

Well, there&#39;s always the Milgram effect. Do what the guy with the stripes tells you . . .

 

[jay_too]

This is pretty sick.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4999734/site/n.../site/newsweek/

The article quotes memos that capture what the Bush administration did to try to lessen the possibility that they would be charged for war crimes. And yes, Bush knew and approved.

I was wrong in believing that Bush, Rumsfeld and Ashcroft unknowingly created a system that allowed prisoner abuse to occur by immature soldiers trying to do a good job as they percieved it.

Oh yeah, the administration have tried to shield CACI [the intelligence contractor linked to abuse] from being designated as guilty of war crimes like I.G. Farben was a half century or so ago. I thought war crimes were thought to be so heinous that there could be no shield from prosecution.

jay