Actually, "The Rich" Don't Create Jobs

Discussion in 'Politics' started by sargon20, May 16, 2011.

  1. sargon20

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    Since the financial collapse and the resulting loss of millions of jobs the top-down message has been 'the rich create jobs' so we better give them what they want( zero regulations, zero taxes, etc) if we, the non-rich, want our jobs back.

    Fox & Friends Still Pushing Myth That Tax Cuts For Rich Create Jobs


    • Hume: "When's the last time one of these poor people offered you a job?"
    • Thompson: "I've never been hired by a poor person."
    Alas it's just not true:

    Actually, "The Rich" Don't "Create Jobs," We Do.
     
  2. Jason

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    Jobs can be created:
    a) by the state as public sector jobs
    b) by entrepreneurs

    In theory 100% of jobs can be state jobs, as the old USSR tried (not with complete success) or today's North Korea. But the reverse isn't true - any civilised society must have some public sector jobs.

    In almost every society today - certainly the UK and USA - the majority of employment is created by entrepreneurs. And if we want jobs we have to have policies which allow the entrepreneurs to do their stuff.

    There is of course a debate around the level of tax on entrepreneurs that is appropriate. But this is separate from the article's thesis that "we" create jobs. Unfortunately the majority of people don't - rather the entrepreneurs do.
     
  3. Domisoldo

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    I admit the people in your quoted source do an outstanding job revealing as little information as possible about where their funding comes from...but the "bipartisan" label cracked me up.
     
  4. FuzzyKen

    FuzzyKen New Member

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    Jobs are created when a business starts and becomes successful or when an already successful business expands requiring more employees to serve or create as is needed.

    The "Ultra Rich" are best described as creating jobs accidentally or unwillingly because they are forced by necessity. They have placed great wealth in the few pockets at the top by working existing labor forces to death, denial or reduction of employee benefits and by spending incredible sums of money to prevent any protection of the workers they employ. Many of the "Ultra Rich" are also the ones exporting the jobs overseas and firing well paid Americans to send their jobs to China or India where the employees have no benefits provided by the employers at all. They do create jobs, but they create them in foreign countries.

    The middle class guy working his rear end off for years to find and develop something that is different to make money by thought and originality is the guy who creates the job in the United States. Successful business start ups and expansions of small business provide the greatest percentage of jobs in this country. The tax brakes and Government Corporate Welfare has protected the largest and created an atmosphere where the little guy has a reduced chance of success or ever competing against the big guy.

    In this country the prized thing is the "free enterprise system". The problem is that the "free enterprise system" is a total failure if the playing field is not even and fair for all competing on it.

    In the United States right now we are facing far more collapse if we do not repair the infrastructure of this country. State Highway Systems are in many States in a bad state of disrepair. We have railroad and shipping avenues in disrepair which hampers the newer technologies in transportation.

    We badly need alternate human transportation systems not depending on the internal combustion engine to allow choices. Yes, electric power is needed for alternative methods and this has it's problems too, but, we can begin a change now.

    The United States was once a world leader in innovation and technology, and it is now far down the list and slipping more each and every year.

    Unfortunately, we need to bring the U.S. troops back home, look at foreign aid where we are "buying" the friendship of other countries, and take all of this money and plow it back in to the United States and the people that make this country great.



     
  5. sargon20

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    So entrepreneurs just can conjure up jobs with a wave of their jobs 'scepter'? That's a wonderful device. Why don't they just wave it and get rid of unemployment? Millions are waiting.


    Exactly though it is the 'demand' that 'creates' a job. No one just conjures up a job absent consumer demand.
     
    #5 sargon20, May 16, 2011
    Last edited: May 16, 2011
  6. vince

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    Most jobs are created by small and mid-sized companies, and most of us who own said companies are not rich. Maybe doing well, maybe well-off even. But rarely "rich". I have created 55 direct jobs in the past three years and support who knows how many others indirectly. Suppliers, caterers, delivery guys, wood cutters, foundries, designers, the list goes on and on.

    Most "rich" people only create jobs by buying useless shit they don't really need that people like us produce for them.
     
  7. Jason

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    Yes this is pretty much how it works. Entrepreneurs create jobs and create wealth (that pays for public services). But most entrepreneurs are in small and medium sized businesses so individually they can only create a few jobs and a little wealth. If we want jobs and wealth we need:
    a) to produce more entrepreneurs
    b) give them an environment in which they can work well.

    There are of course philanthropic entrepreneurs who do not use their skills to fund a lavish lifestyle. But in general we have to accept that many entrepreneurs are motivated by getting rich (money which they spend creating more jobs and wealth) and if we tax them too much we're not going to get their services. We also have to accept that entrepreneurs want an environment which is safe and pleasant for them. If we make them into social outcasts or legislate them into a corner they will stop being entrepreneurs.
     
  8. joyboytoy79

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    Just so it's out there: Rich Person ≠ Entrepreneur.

    Entrepreneurs, in fact, often need seed money from the BIG BAD GOVERNMENT in order to reach success.

    Rich people, with their already accumulated wealth, seldom go out looking for new things to make/do. In fact, when they have extra money, they tend to sequester it. Poor people, on the other hand, do not have the luxury of sequestering funds. They must spend what they have. Middle income people will spend more than they save. Therefor, giving money to lower and middle income people will do more to drive the economy, and therefor create jobs, than giving money to rich people.

    Plus, I hardly think Entrepreneurs are out there saying "I wanna get rich so I won't have to pay taxes anymore." If I make $50,000/year, and pay 25% in taxes, I'm left with 37,500. If I make $100,000/year, and pay 50% in taxes, i'm left with $50,000. If I was a smart person, I'd strive to be making the higher amount, because even though I'd be paying more in taxes, I would still be taking a LOT more home. (btw, these tax rates are not based off of any real life tax system and are purely meant for comparison purposes)
     
  9. Domisoldo

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    ♪♫ C'est la lutte finale! ♯♪♫
     
  10. dandelion

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    Now this is the bit i do not understand. you are saying if we reduce taxes and therefore make it easier for entrepreneurs to get rich faster while doing less, they will suddenly rush around working harder and harder. Whereas you reckon that if we take some of their money away so they are perhaps feeling a bit short, they will fix themselves a drink and not bother going to work to maybe make a bit extra to make up. It just doesnt work like that for me.

    The reason bankers get such stunning bonuses (apart from the fact they set their own pay rates) is that they already have so much money there just isnt any point working harder unless its for a stunningly huge amount. If it wasnt for the fact they all work in a totally closed shop where they set their own pay, a real employer would by now have brought in some decent blackleg labour and got the job done for a fraction the cost while still paying decent rates. This corrosive closed shop mentality has spread through big industry and is in the long term enormously destructive. No industry has ever, in the end, survived becoming a closed shop which pays itself too much. Western big business management is all going that way...
     
    #10 dandelion, May 17, 2011
    Last edited: May 17, 2011
  11. Jason

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    Yes.
     
  12. sargon20

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    Nyet

    Demand Creates Jobs

    No one is going to 'create a job' absent demand.
     
  13. Bbucko

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    I spent ~25 years in the furniture industry: wholesale, retail, mid/low/high-end in jobs that at various times required me to be a salesperson, a team leader, an operations manager, a designer, an accountant and (sometimes) a marital therapist :cool::tongue:

    I spent my first five of those years working for a rather large corporation, the experience of which taught me that I am not cut out for corporate work and thereafter worked exclusively for entrepreneurs (except for a very brief, four month period in 1999 when I really shoulda known better). I will say, however, that I did learn real, practical skills in the corporation which opened doors and allowed me to pursue a career doing things I really loved.

    One of the things I learned is that people can coast and nest in larger corps, basically fly under the radar for years provided they make no waves. Working for entrepreneurs puts one in a much more vulnerable (or at least highly visible) position; your output is scanned and being measured constantly by the person who signs your paychecks. Success in such conditions inevitably boils down to chemistry with the boss: you either click or you don't, and you know it almost immediately.

    Working for about twenty years for entrepreneurs, I came to quickly divide them into categories of wealth (and none were in the "super-rich" category). Those who started with a base of inherited wealth were usually the most difficult to deal with, as they demanded not just deference but fealty; those who truly were "self-made" were much less fearsome; the worst was someone whose mother bankrolled his various schemes, none of which were quite realistic enough to catch on (though they were occasionally lyrical in conception).

    I enjoyed a very long leash, usually, in my creativity to solve problems. Entrepreneurs by definition are high-risk takers and they thrive on innovation. In all those years, I can only think of one who was resistant to new ideas, but he and his wife were elderly micro-managers who couldn't quite trust that their son (in his early 40s) was ready to "take the helm"; I'm sure that any frustration I felt paled in comparison to his :rolleyes:

    Another thing I found interesting was that they all had in common was a single extravagance. It could have been a car (German imports were popular) or a home or a wardrobe: occasionally two but never all three. One always had the feeling that they were in a constant scramble for cash, and it happened more than once when I was asked to wait til Monday a check given on a Friday. These were obviously not people with money to burn.

    Though the furniture industry has its own, unique sets of challenges (the costs of keeping inventory are ruinous, for instance, as is transportation), I don't believe that the entrepreneurs I met there were really anything beyond the norm, and small business owners make up the bulk of employers. Before each of the two times I've been laid off, the writing on the wall was quite apparent, and was always due to their own errors in forecasting trends or the market in general.
     
  14. Jason

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    Wealth creates demand, demand creates jobs, jobs creates wealth - the entrepreneurs are the catalyst. They are creating demand, jobs, wealth - if you want to get philosophical about it they are creating happiness.
     
  15. sargon20

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    demand:
    The amount of a particular economic good or service that a consumer or group of consumers will want to purchase at a given price. The demand curve is usually downward sloping, since consumers will want to buy more as price decreases. Demand for a good or service is determined by many different factors other than price, such as the price of substitute goods and complementary goods. In extreme cases, demand may be completely unrelated to price, or nearly infinite at a given price. Along with supply, demand is one of the two key determinants of the market price.

    Key here is 'will want to purchase'. Without that 'want' there is no demand and there is no 'job'.
     
    #15 sargon20, May 19, 2011
    Last edited: May 19, 2011
  16. B_crackoff

    B_crackoff New Member

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    Supply creates its own demand.

    Jobs have been created - Just not in the USA. That's globalization, the globalization of poverty.

    If you have a problem with it, don't vote for your government giving aid to foreign nations, technical, financial whatever, & don't allow your central bank to subsidize loans that go out to competitor nations, that then provide the products & services that ordinarily woul have been produced domestically.

    Or move.

    The lowering of international risk by American/European intervention, the coordinated aid agencies that facilitate multinational expansion & the expansion of credit FULLY underwritten by the domestic taxpayer sort of seals our own doom.

    The taxation issue is chicken feed in comparison.
     
  17. Jason

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    If people have money in their pocket they want to spend it. At least most people do, most of the time. In fact most people want to spend more than they have! As a rule of thumb if people have money they want to spend it!
     
  18. ColoradoGuy

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    You're right, Jason. If people didn't want to spend more money than they had, the credit card industry wouldn't be mammoth, the debt consolidation industry wouldn't likely exist, and the number of lawyers concentrating on bankruptcy law would be minimal.

    Hmmm... although I know this is blasphemous in our consumption-driven economy, we should get people to live within their means. :rolleyes:
     
  19. sargon20

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    You guys are utterly amazing. You've upended the whole marketing discipline. Indeed there is no need for marketing, advertisement, sales, etc. Just put it out there and watch it fly off the shelf simply because it's there and people have money or is it wealth we're calling it. Amazing.

    OK. This is going no where. I'm divorcing myself from this conversation. You are intentionally ignoring the definition of demand and creating your own.

    The rich do create jobs, money magically appears and creates demand. Thank God for the rich entrepreneurs. God created them so that we might praise them. Where are their boots so I may lick them, their rings that I might kiss them? They have brought us out of the caves and into the light.
     
    #19 sargon20, May 20, 2011
    Last edited: May 20, 2011
  20. DeepFun

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    Actually probably the best answer comes when there is an equitable distribution of wealth, then everyone spends, most are employed to meet that demand, the rich get richer but everyone working accumulates goods, property and wealth. This country has never prospered until progressive tax structures were in place. Now, Warren Buffet says he pays the same taxes as his secretary, and this obviously doesn't seem to be working.

    We are now officially a Plutocracy, according to Citibank. If you're comfortable with that, do nothing. Here's a link to that Citibank article. Knowledge is power.

    Citigroup Oct 16, 2005 Plutonomy Report Part 1
     
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