Adam Lambert's AMA performance, Public Perception, & the Gay Rights Movement

Discussion in 'Politics' started by D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse, Nov 27, 2009.

  1. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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    During another Adam Lambert thread, I was generally supportive of Adam Lambert's AMA Performance, thinking that this kind of overt sexuality, by heteros at least, is a fairly commonplace thing, and so, therefore, Adam should be able to perform a gay version of unbridled sex just as Madonna and others routinely do.


    But this judgement isn't sitting well with me. I keep thinking about it. Gays are in a struggle right now for marriage equality and adoption rights --- all the stuff of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" that other americans enjoy.


    Adam simulating oral sex onstage is a bit over the top and, I think, hurts the cause for the larger gay rights struggle. We are still fighting social cons in states with gay marriage propositions on the ballot who love to bring up the effects of the "gay lifestyle" on children. There are still Anita Byrants out there (check the right wing websites) that continue to view gays as trolling for random sex in public parks, restrooms, adult bookstores.


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    A month ago, there was a discussion here in the midst of an "adult bookstore" thread (How Do You Get A Blow Job in a Bookstore?) which centered around the thrills of sticky floors and dark booths and anonymous BJ encounters.

    To my mind, the anonymous encounters in these video jack-off booths were actually an extension of the gay sex of the 1940's & '50's: clandestine rest stops and furtive sex in park bushes. I kept thinking to myself: we don't have to live like this anymore. There are all kinds of mainstream ways of obtaining sexual contact.

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    In this thread, I made the following comment:


    "Bookstore sex" is the same kind of randy sex - like public-park-sex-in-the-bushes - that people like Bill O'Reilly and social conservatives love to point to as gay depravity. Or zeroing in on the 2 or 3 drag queens at the gay parade.

    Bookstore booth sex, bathhouse sex, public park sex, restroom sex --- they're all activities the gay movement must evolve past. It's not about being puritanical. It's about being practical in order to advance the gay agenda in today's politics.


    Bbucko, a sensible commenter, posted this: I'm actually kinda surprised by your puritanistic attitude, WT. Jason's an adult and fully capable of testing and pushing his own limits.

    And part of the erotic charge is precisely the clandestine nature of the encounter; not everyone fantasizes about lover sex on cool blue sheets with soft jazz playing on the hifi. Leave him be.


    Jason Els, also an insightful poster, wrote: Why must we evolve past anything to satisfy homophobes? I agree that public park and restroom sex are inappropriate but I take complete exception to bath houses and adult books stores where age of entry is restricted.

    What you're saying is that we have to assimilate to be accepted. Meanwhile straights are boinking each other all over the place including public parks, parking lots, and restrooms (albeit usually in age-restricted bars and clubs) without any comment from the homophobic press. What you're actually advocating is a double standard and that doesn't advance anyone's agenda beyond those who believe that if society is to accept gay people that it requires that they hide their sexuality outside of private (or even in private in the case of bath houses and bookstores). These pernicious people want gay people to appear straight, restrict their sexual obviousness, and essentially become acceptable by being house niggers to straights. "If you want acceptance you'll have to do it on our terms," is bullshit and not a single civil rights victory has ever been achieved by pretending to be something you're not.

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    Yes, in general, "assimilate to be accepted".

    I do not think Adam Lambert is doing the gay movement any favors at this time with in-your-face displays of simulated oral sex and gratuitous kissing in front of an audience of 14 miilion.

    And it's not just Adam. The struggle for gay equality is not going to be derailed by a cheesy AMA performance. I'm trying to get at something deeper and larger than Adam Lambert. We need to modify our public displays of (perceived) lewdness -- whether at the Pride parades or Award shows -- until equality gains full momentum.
     
  2. BigDallasDick8x6

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    Hets have simulated oral sex on TV? I guess I missed that. I am farrrrrrrrr from a prude, but I agree -- that was over the top.
     
  3. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    You know I have mad love for ya, but I have to disagree here.
    When it comes to homophobic people, just the fact that we walk outside is enough to set them off. Every action we make is under extreme scrutiny, and every gesture is taken as some kind of proposition or potential recruitment for kinky sex. You're right when you say that it would take a lot more than Adam Lambert to derail any strides towards gay rights. However, instead of trying to fit in with a group of dissenters who will never accept us we should be focusing on those who understand what's really going on. That also means not trying so hard to prove like we're just like everyone else because we already have done that.
     
  4. Gillette

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    Why would decorum on the part of homosexuals be considered assimilation?

    Lewd is lewd no matter who is doing it.

    When I see a guy openly groping a girl's bare tit in public I don't think how wonderful it is that they can express themselves this way in front of everyone. I think they should get a fucking room.

    Madonna is an accomplished artist. Christina Aguilerra has an amazing voice. Britney..no comment. When they did that stupid shock value kiss they reduced themselves from being women (people) with impressive careers to being tantalizing sex objects (things). Granted being interesting things is what launched their careers but at least the first two had managed to make more of themselves than that.

    Exhibitionists are those who make exhibits of themselves, no?
    A person making of themselves a thing.

    When you're striving to be fully recognized as the person, or people, you are, thing(s) is not the designation you want.

    I agree with you on the Adam Lambert performance, though I don't agree with the cancellation his interview. Bathhouses and bookstores are out of public viewing so the public lewdness doesn't really apply to those.

    Good thread, WT.
     
  5. Swag92

    Swag92 New Member

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  6. Gillette

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    Britney's value as an artist is a debate for another thread, as to your other point I already covered that.

     
  7. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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    I've also been thinking about this hardcore drive for full-fledged "marriage equality".

    Would it really be so bad to settle (temporarily at least) for civil unions, which is a more modest and achievable goal?


    Here's a headline from today's Associated Press:

    Marriage setbacks have some gay activists seeking renewed focus on civil unions

    Here's an excerpt:

    With 34 states lacking any legal recognition of same-sex relationships, Traiman wonders if all the emphasis on matrimony is misplaced.

    "When I speak to women from Florida or Wisconsin or Minnesota, they are like, 'I don't care what it's called, I just want to be able to visit my wife in the hospital and cover my children with my health insurance,'" said Traiman, who helped pass the nation's first domestic partnership law a quarter-century ago in Berkeley.

    In the weeks since Maine voters handed the gay marriage movement its 27th electoral defeat in five years, other activists have voiced similar qualms about making marriage their main goal. Gay rights leaders have insisted that anything less than full marriage equality is unacceptable, but some are asking whether the uncompromising strategy has forestalled interim steps that could improve the lives of gay men, lesbians and their families.

    On the same day that Maine rejected a gay marriage law approved by its Legislature, for example, voters in Washington state approved a law giving same-sex couples or straight older couples who register as domestic partners all the state rights and responsibilities of marriage. Washington's so-called "everything but marriage" law passed by the same margin as Maine's gay marriage rebuff, 53 percent to 48 percent.


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    I think from a practical point of view we all need to start thinking in terms of civil unions, just a name change, which will carry all the benefits of marriage, but will not explicitly be called "marriage". This tactic alone will allow us to celebrate victories in a majority of blue states.
     
  8. MercyfulFate

    MercyfulFate New Member

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    I can't believe this is an issue when Madonna and Britney did primarily the same thing. Or that Miley Cyrus gyrated on a stripper pole.

    Then again men want to see two women make out, but don't want to see men do it.
     
  9. B_dxjnorto

    B_dxjnorto New Member

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    I didn't care at all about the rest of the performance. I just think he should have sung better. He was really screaming out and not quite hitting his notes.
     
  10. D_Gunther Snotpole

    D_Gunther Snotpole Account Disabled

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    Much more achievable, and a far better beachhead from which to move to same-sex marriage than the current situation.

    This is sometimes called gradualism, and I don't think it implies settling for second best if it actually accelerates movement towards a truly equitable rearrangement.

    In Québec, the separatists called it étapism
    (essentially, moving ahead in stages), and if it had become a fully-embraced policy of the several separatist governments that have been in place in Québec in the last 33 years, it would have been unstoppable.

    In successive referenda, first one right for the Québec 'nation' would have been asked for, and then another, and then another ... until, finally, Québec would be so close to full independence that the final small leap to full sovereignty would seem a walk in the park.

    Of course, nothing so complicated would be needed in the simple two-step from civil union to full right to marriage.
     
  11. Industrialsize

    Staff Member Moderator Gold Member

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    I refuse to be assimilated into anything,I reject the concept of incrementalism as far as gay rights go, I say put the drag queens in front of the cameras.
     
  12. B_dxjnorto

    B_dxjnorto New Member

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    Everyone always becomes assimilated. Remember the sixties?
     
  13. D_Tintagel_Demondong

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    There are not enough positive gay male role models. How does little gay Johnny become a better man when he grows up after watching his hero grind his crotch into another man's face? This performance did nothing to advance LGBT rights. It just helps bigots lump gays into the "pervert" pile. Anita Briant would be all over this (is she alive?).

    There are great female lesbian role models now, but where are the guys?

    Also, I don't see a double standard here. If a heterosexual person ground their crotch into another person's face, they likely would also risk sanctions, no?

    So, you are a Marxist now? (Synthesis).
     
    #13 D_Tintagel_Demondong, Nov 28, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2009
  14. D_Gunther Snotpole

    D_Gunther Snotpole Account Disabled

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    Sounds good, and you may be right.
    But I wonder if the best doesn't then become the enemy of the good.
    As for putting drag queens in front of the camera, I am gung ho
    for that.
    We can do that, while contenting ourselves with civil unions as a beachhead that accelerates, not slows, the arc of progress.
    It's a thought, anyway.
    Who knows what the best strategy is? I don't.

    In bed or in sling: from each, according to his ability ... to each, according to his need.
    Only game in town, imo.

    U got sumpin better?
    Yup, Marxist.:cool:
     
  15. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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    I'm sorry, WHY are we putting the drag queen in front of the camera?

    Are we talking about the same drag queens that attend the S.F. Pride parade in roller skates and a nun's habit with a full beard?

    By the way, a little secret of mine that I've yet to get over is my resentment at the "T" in LGBT rights. I've always harbored a resentment that transsexuals would slow down the emancipation of gays and lesbians. Drag queens are even more obstructive to achieving equality.

    This is the United States, after all, and not Europe. I think drag queens are a relic of an old self-image and sensibility. They are sort of like seeing a picture of Aunt Jemima in 1940's advertisements. Drag queens do seem anachronistic. We live in an age where it's ok to be gay - and we're making progress on transgender identity. So you can be one thing or the other. Drag queens are like living in the land between, and a caricature of the movement. Drag queens seem to me like a curiosity from several bygone eras.
     
    #15 D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse, Nov 28, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2009
  16. MercyfulFate

    MercyfulFate New Member

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    I have to agree with you on that one, at least for the ones that seem more desperate for attention. The ones that aren't trans-gendered are basically fighting for the right to dress as the other sex, at least in the case of drag queens.

    That doesn't quite add up to the same thing gay men and women are fighting for.
     
  17. B_dxjnorto

    B_dxjnorto New Member

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    Same old thing--someone has a similar agenda and we worry that they are stealing our show. I don't really know what drag queens are all about, never having been one, and I feel sorry for anyone with gender dysphoria--being gay is bad enough. But I figure there is a place for everyone.
     
  18. D_Gunther Snotpole

    D_Gunther Snotpole Account Disabled

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    No.
     
  19. B_dxjnorto

    B_dxjnorto New Member

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    Hopefully there's a place in heaven for those dear sisters too. :28:
     
  20. joyboytoy79

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    See this video starting at about 2:10, and continuing sporadically through the remainder of the video. I remember seeing this on VH1 when it was new, at about 4pm Central time on a weekday.

    Yeah, that won't work. I say this because it's been tried before. See the US Supreme Court case labeled "Plessy Vs. Ferguson" of 1896. This case, handed down with but one dissenter, affirmed separate but equal accommodations for members of society based on their race. The problem is, just calling a building a "school" doesn't make it one, and the separate institutions imposed upon Blacks, Hispanics, and Asians would never be equal. It took 58 years for the supreme court to recognize that separate is never equal. 58 years is a long time, and I don't want to have to wait it out.

    Really, how long do you think it will take for states to institute laws limiting the transferability of civil union licenses? Or to set up separate laws regarding the availability of insurance policies for civilly united persons? How long would it take the federal government to confer equal amenities to those persons civilly united as they offer to those who are married? Many, many more laws would need to be instituted to grant equality under civil unions, and each of those laws would be a monumental fight. Incrementalism. Yeah. Incrementally impossible.

    I have several issues with this post. SEVERAL. First of all, the letter T in LGBT has nothing to do with drag queens. Secondly, you seem to have Transsexual and Transgender confused. Transsexuals have a medical condition, that of being born with genitals that conflict with their sexual identity. Transgender people, however, tend to refute gender norms, and rebuke the male/female binary that they feel is unjustly imposed upon them. While some drag queens may identify as transgender, none would identify as transsexual, because drag queens do not LIVE as women, and a transsexual female does.

    Many Drag Queens simply enjoy the pageantry of dressing like women and putting on a show. And why shouldn't they? Who's norms should they follow? "Traditional" norms as set forth by the hegemonic mainstream? Don't get me started on "Traditional" attire. I think we could ask Amelia Bloomer about "tradition," and get a much different answer than we'd get from Lucille Ball, who would give us a much different answer than Laura Bush.

    I, personally, think Drag Queens play an important role in the LGBT equality movement. They help to point out that what we are asking for isn't a redefinition of humanity, but an acknowledgment that tradition evolves as a matter of public taste and consciousness. Sure, the lines dividing gay men (most of whom are not drag queens), drag queens (who are NOT 100% homosexual) and transsexuals (who are neither gay men, nor drag queens) may be difficult for your average citizen to grasp, but are the lines important? We all want to be recognized as humans whose ideas are, by definition, unpopular, but whose rights of existence are undeniable. How is conformation to popular ideals going to win us acceptance, when every historic case of those who tried to conform is a story of folly and misery?
     
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