Adam Lambert's AMA performance, Public Perception, & the Gay Rights Movement

[Northland]

Who are Pearl, Velma, and Mike? Are they public figures or private individuals?

That was an excellent post. I hope it resonates with WillTom and causes him a moment to think.

Pearl, Velma and Mike are personal friends of mine (private individuals-and for the record, I changed their names for the sake of their privacy).

 

[dc46064]

hey , new here. I think all of you have a point. AS far as what Adam did, I dont think he should have.But, the pther side of me says if the women do it , why cant we? Well there is a double standard. I am 49 and have a 30 year old daughter. One of there good friends had some trouble , and I gave him a place to stay for a while. He is straight and says he has no problems with gay men. I decided to test him. I told him that 2 women where coming over and they where going to have sex in front of us. He said" thats great, right up my alley. Then I told him the same with 2 men, he said he would have to leave for a while then. There is a double standard when it comes to gay men. I have been on both sides of the fence. I am bi and was married 2 times . I have lived with my male lover for the last 13 years. Its always been a double standard. There was even one when Hilter was in power. Gay women where not jailed and sent for mental help, we know what happened to the men. In the past 10 years , gay men have went back in time at least 40 years. Would not surprize me if in the next ten years that happens again. In this country , they have a real big problem with gay men. Thanks for letting me post this, these are my feelings in my life. Dan here

 

[B_Mister Buildington]

He is straight and says he has no problems with gay men. I decided to test him. I told him that 2 women where coming over and they where going to have sex in front of us. He said" thats great, right up my alley. Then I told him the same with 2 men, he said he would have to leave for a while then.

That BIGOT!

 

[MercyfulFate]

hey , new here. I think all of you have a point. AS far as what Adam did, I dont think he should have.But, the pther side of me says if the women do it , why cant we? Well there is a double standard. I am 49 and have a 30 year old daughter. One of there good friends had some trouble , and I gave him a place to stay for a while. He is straight and says he has no problems with gay men. I decided to test him. I told him that 2 women where coming over and they where going to have sex in front of us. He said" thats great, right up my alley. Then I told him the same with 2 men, he said he would have to leave for a while then. There is a double standard when it comes to gay men. I have been on both sides of the fence. I am bi and was married 2 times . I have lived with my male lover for the last 13 years. Its always been a double standard. There was even one when Hilter was in power. Gay women where not jailed and sent for mental help, we know what happened to the men. In the past 10 years , gay men have went back in time at least 40 years. Would not surprize me if in the next ten years that happens again. In this country , they have a real big problem with gay men. Thanks for letting me post this, these are my feelings in my life. Dan here

Um...if you're straight, seeing two women would obviously be good. If you're not gay, you may not want to see two men nude with each other.

How does that even make sense? It's like decrying a vegetarian because he doesn't want to be around meat or something. Very odd story.

 

[Bbucko]

Rights are just that, rights. As Americans, we all have the right to be equal before the law. As it is, many people do not believe that. Too bad for them. So long as the Fourteenth Amendment stands as the supreme law of the land, those people are impediments to gaining what is already rightfully ours. It's not a question of begging them, asking them, bending to their expectations, or waiting patiently for times to change. It's a question of making the necessity of our rights known and creating penalties for blocking access to our rights. This is what women did, it's what blacks did, it's what we need to do.

Those drag queens were the heroes of Stonewall and jumpstarted the gay rights movement. They knew that there is never a convenient time to move to the front of the bus. You just do it and keep doing it until you wear down the bigots, assholes, fearmongers, wafflers, and those who want to control your life. You make them acknowledge you. You make them move out of the way.

I think Uncle Buckles is being too hard on you. I don't think you've considered this issue very intently because I think that once you apprehend the gestalt of it, the answer is obvious and it becomes enormously frustrating that others don't. I hope you'll reply here because I'd like to discuss this with you.

And please read and re-read what joyboytoy said. I think his post was fantastic.

I agree completely regarding JoyBoy's post in this thread (and all his posts: he's a very thoughtful man); he stayed his point extremely well.

But far from being too hard on WT, I firmly believe that he started this thread looking specifically for the exact response he got from me. Why else drag out a dead thread that is only relevant to GLBT rights in his own narrow, feverish and fetid little mind? He wanted a slap-down and I gave him one: boohoo.

As Northland posts above, WT is hardly a naif to posting threads on marriage equality. He follows the news closely and concerns himself with at least as much energy as Trannity does in birtherism.

The problem comes from a piss-poor grasp of what the "gay movement" is actually about, quotes from Harvey Milk aside. The gay rights movement is about treating all of society's members with the exact same level of respect and dignity as any one part of it. His obnoxious post here proves how completely intolerant and poorly-intentioned he really is:

I'm sorry, WHY are we putting the drag queen in front of the camera?

Are we talking about the same drag queens that attend the S.F. Pride parade in roller skates and a nun's habit with a full beard?

By the way, a little secret of mine that I've yet to get over is my resentment at the "T" in LGBT rights. I've always harbored a resentment that transsexuals would slow down the emancipation of gays and lesbians. Drag queens are even more obstructive to achieving equality.

This is the United States, after all, and not Europe. I think drag queens are a relic of an old self-image and sensibility. They are sort of like seeing a picture of Aunt Jemima in 1940's advertisements. Drag queens do seem anachronistic. We live in an age where it's ok to be gay - and we're making progress on transgender identity. So you can be one thing or the other. Drag queens are like living in the land between, and a caricature of the movement. Drag queens seem to me like a curiosity from several bygone eras.

The antonym of "pride" is "shame". Why the hell would any reasonable thread started by anyone who claims to understand and admire Harvey Milk's life's work include such hateful, narrow, bigoted rhetoric? If you want to discount the thoughts and actions of "bigots, assholes, fearmongers, wafflers, and those who want to control your life", you can start with the OP.

This thread was started by the feelings of shame and revulsion caused by a singer during an awards show on television. His feelings of disgust and despair were so pronounced that he felt justified in pulling some old dead thread of yours out of obscurity in a blatant attempt to use your own words "against" you (and me) in the process.

I actually think that I could have been much, much more cutting in this thread than I have been. You should have seen what I deleted before pushing "submit reply" :wink:

 

[jason_els]

Yes, I do see I have a problem with "transgender" and "transsexual" usage and tend to interchange the two. My drag queen/transgender/transsexual embarrassment, which I freely admitted (it's not something I'm proud of) stems from many years of seeing the media focus on the drag queens (and men in jeanless chaps, ass showing through) at Pride parades, sometimes to the exclusion of all else. I knew I was primarily gay by the age of 12. Even at 12, I knew the gay parades were a positive event, and I also instinctively knew that drag queens "in front of the camera" were bad PR, terrible packaging, an eyesore to winning the hearts and minds of moderate straight Americans. The idea of the mainstream media "branding" the Pride parades with an image of the 6'2'' loud, brassy drag queen in ruby red lipstick (sometimes with full facial hair) was bad advertising when the focus should have been on the passionate everyday (quotidian) marchers.

You're welcome.

I have no idea how old you are and I have a ridiculously good long-term memory so perhaps this won't ring with the same resonance. Think of Martin Luther King. The man was well-spoken, well-educated, a minister, had a doctorate, dressed conservatively, advocated peaceful protest, and was about as innocuous to white people as a black man could be short of Stepin Fetchit. King was killed for being an, "uppity negro," regardless of the fact that he presented himself in a dignified and respectful manner.

King was not an appeaser. He pressed the civil rights agenda forcefully and with all his energy. His brilliance was still loathed by many who did not and still do not want black people to have the same rights as whites. It is a battle that's still being fought in many places even now, 41 years after his death. The Supreme Court ended segregation, the armed forces ended military segregation, and today we have a man of mixed race as president yet STILL this battle is being fought because some people cannot accept that we must live and let live.

That is the true genius of the founding fathers. It's not the flag waving or folding or various other ceremonies bound-up in the Spirit of 1776, it's the idea that the minority is protected from the gross injustices of the majority; that individual freedoms mean we can live as we want even if our idea of those freedoms aren't what the majority accepts. The founding fathers had a horrendous time with the slavery question. The northerners wanted slavery abolished with the founding of the republic but the south wouldn't have it. Franklin, always the pragmatist and the founder of the first abolitionist society, directly warned his fellow congressmen that if the issue was not settled then, that it would be in the future and it would not be peaceful. The result was that the founding fathers had to settle for a compromise... and just as Franklin had predicted, look how that turned out.

We will not win in one fell swoop. There will be no miracle ruling or law which will make homophobia disappear overnight. Even after we win equal rights there will still be law enforcement agencies, hate groups, and bigots out to make certain that gay civil rights are not respected. That may never go away just as racism and sexism never went away.

Want more proof? Look at Jews. As an ethnic and religious minority they have excelled in the arts and sciences far out of proportion to their number, yet there are still doors closed to them merely for being Jewish. It doesn't matter what they've contributed to society or how they present themselves, the fact is they are still Jewish and there are plenty of people who don't want them around just for that fact alone. Oh sure, let's give a scientist a prize or go hear a violinist at Carnegie Hall, but move next door? We can't have that!

Assimilation may be an obvious tactic, it might seem like the right thing to do, but in the end it never works because you cannot change the fundamental thing that people hate about you whether it's your gender, race, religion, or sexual orientation.

I think we can learn something from those who came before us. One quote which has always struck me came from Susan B. Anthony: Cautious, careful people, always casting about to preserve their reputations... can never effect a reform. That's something to remember because it means that those dancing about in assless chaps and drag on pride floats are the true vehicles to change, not, "Gay Doctors for Equality," or, "Gay Bankers for Rights," or even the Log Cabin Republicans who still, despite bending over every which way to gain some respect via assimilation in their own party, haven't gained a single plank in the GOP platform.

 

[Bbucko]

"I have never considered myself a candidate. I have always considered myself part of a movement, part of a candidacy. I considered the movement the candidate. I think that there's a distinction between those who use the movement and those who are part of the movement. I think I was always part of the movement. I wish I had time to explain everything I did. Almost everything was done with an eye on the gay movement," -- Harvey Milk, from a tape recording (November, 1977) to be played in the event of his assassination

--------------------
[blahblahblah]


Yes, I do see I have a problem with "transgender" and "transsexual" usage and tend to interchange the two. My drag queen/transgender/transsexual embarrassment, which I freely admitted (it's not something I'm proud of) stems from many years of seeing the media focus on the drag queens (and men in jeanless chaps, ass showing through) at Pride parades, sometimes to the exclusion of all else. I knew I was primarily gay by the age of 12. Even at 12, I knew the gay parades were a positive event, and I also instinctively knew that drag queens "in front of the camera" were bad PR, terrible packaging, an eyesore to winning the hearts and minds of moderate straight Americans. The idea of the mainstream media "branding" the Pride parades with an image of the 6'2'' loud, brassy drag queen in ruby red lipstick (sometimes with full facial hair) was bad advertising when the focus should have been on the passionate everyday (quotidian) marchers.

Don't you see how hideously ironic it is to quote a man whose life was cut short by his struggle to rid this country of shame and guilt and then post something so riddled with shame and guilt?

It must truly be pathetic to be a gay man who was forever traumatized by seeing a Gay Pride parade (probably on television) at age 12! But your personal struggle with pathos aside, your ongoing smears and demeaning posts regarding anyone whom you feel is a less than ideal representation of your personal struggles is exclusionary: it's not a celebration of diversity.

If you cannot understand that Harvey Milk was about inclusion and diversity, then you understand nothing, nothing at all.

 

[Bbucko]

No people in history have ever survived who thought they could protect their freedom by making themselves inoffensive to their enemies. Dean Acheson


Appeasers believe that if you keep on throwing steaks to a tiger, the tiger will become a vegetarian. Heywood Broun


some people never grow, don't want to grow, don't want to admit that they're wrong. the same type of narrow-minded bigots that supposedly the all-seeing, all-knowing OP endlessly rants about in his tiresome posts.

Thank you my friend: it's nice to know that some people get it and some people just never will :3some:

 

[B_dxjnorto]

Here's an image of Sister Roma, of the San Francisco chapter, posing for NoH8campaign.com: http://www.bouska.net/noh8/gallery/0797.jpg

Amazing get-up, religious symbols, silver duck tape and all. Can you imagine how long it would take to get out of the house?

 

[Bbucko]

Amazing get-up, religious symbols, silver duck tape and all. Can you imagine how long it would take to get out of the house?

The Sisters take the Order very seriously

 

[D_Tintagel_Demondong]

I agree with Jason and Bucko that rights are rights, but societal norms supersede rights. We have Federal legislation in Canada that guarantee rights to people regardless of their orientation, but what good is it when our society is full of heterosexism? I don't know if gender-role socialization causes homophobia, or if homophobia dictates gender-role socialization. I do know that, despite his rights, a sissy will still get picked on in my country. This will continue until there is more public acceptance of gay culture, regardless of the law. I think that WillTom's "assimilation" has some validity here; continued marginalization isn't going to make middle America less phobic. I don't mean "faceless," mimicry. I mean exposure -- being more involved in normal day-to-day activities with random people, rather than spending a weeks at a time in a bathhouse in a gay sector of a city. I'm stereotyping merely for the sake of brevity. Let's face it, straight men are also pressured to conform to their gender roles.

Not everyone is as strong as this kid.

I think that WT is a bright guy, and I don't think that he should be pounced on due to an innocent lack of verstehen.

Drag queens are not EYESORES

They are to middle America. I think that was WT's point... or I could be sadly mistaken.

 

[Industrialsize]

I agree with Jason and Bucko that rights are rights, but societal norms supersede rights. We have Federal legislation in Canada that guarantee rights to people regardless of their orientation, but what good is it when our society is full of heterosexism? I don't know if gender-role socialization causes homophobia, or if homophobia dictates gender-role socialization. I do know that, despite his rights, a sissy will still get picked on in my country. This will continue until there is more public acceptance of gay culture, regardless of the law. I think that WillTom's "assimilation" has some validity here; continued marginalization isn't going to make middle America less phobic. I don't mean "faceless," mimicry. I mean exposure -- being more involved in normal day-to-day activities with random people, rather than spending a weeks at a time in a bathhouse in a gay sector of a city. I'm stereotyping merely for the sake of brevity. Let's face it, straight men are also pressured to conform to their gender roles.

Not everyone is as strong as this kid.

I think that WT is a bright guy, and I don't think that he should be pounced on due to an innocent lack of verstehen.



They are to middle America. I think that was WT's point... or I could be sadly mistaken.

I refuse to be told to sit in the back of the bus unless I "assimilate" until society is ready for me to come up front. And I'll decide what "Normal day to day activities" are for me, thank you very much.

 

[D_Tintagel_Demondong]

I refuse to be told to sit in the back of the bus unless I "assimilate" until society is ready for me to come up front. And I'll decide what "Normal day to day activities" are for me, thank you very much.

I'm just saying that one can't marginalize oneself then expect public acceptance. My point was: be who you are, just don't hide it. Maybe I'm naive, but I think this will work.

 

[Industrialsize]

I'm just saying that one can't marginalize oneself then expect public acceptance. My point was: be who you are, just don't hide it. Maybe I'm naive, but I think this will work.

I agree with this statement.......So If you're a drag queen, a flaming queen, A Sister of Perpetual Indulgence, a full on leather daddy etc. BE WHO YOU ARE AND DON'T HIDE.

 

[D_Tintagel_Demondong]

I agree with this statement.......So If you're a drag queen, a flaming queen, A Sister of Perpetual Indulgence, a full on leather daddy etc. BE WHO YOU ARE AND DON'T HIDE.

Yes. But bring it to middle America. That's what I meant by "assimilation." I shouldn't have used that word, even though I used safety quotes.

This week's episode of Heroes was great, and it had a great quote: "Fear is easier than understanding."

 

[jason_els]

What will make America less homophobic? Death. Time and again, it's the over 40s who have the most problem with gay rights and gay marriage in particular. The US is socked with Baby Boomers who hold the most influence at the ballot box because of sheer numbers. As they begin to die off, gaining the recognition of rights will be easier. Once again, it will be the northeast and the west who lead the way while the midwest and deep south will be dragged kicking and screaming.

 

[Bbucko]

Yes. But bring it to middle America. That's what I meant by "assimilation." I shouldn't have used that word, even though I used safety quotes.

I actually had no idea what you meant until this clarification: thank you for doing so, as I'd never figured you for a duck-and-cover assimilationist.

What will make America less homophobic? Death. Time and again, it's the over 40s who have the most problem with gay rights and gay marriage in particular. The US is socked with Baby Boomers who hold the most influence at the ballot box because of sheer numbers. As they begin to die off, gaining the recognition of rights will be easier. Once again, it will be the northeast and the west who lead the way while the midwest and deep south will be dragged kicking and screaming.

Personally I'd pinpoint the birth-year cutoff as somewhere between 1958 and 1962, but I agree with your larger point that this is primarily a generational issue.

I started a long rant about generational politics and deleted it all. But I'll just say that it's a sad day indeed when the struggles of the generation who made visibility (and corresponding acceptance) possible is spat on or otherwise condescended to by a younger who takes all of our hard work for granted.

 

[jason_els]

But I'll just say that it's a sad day indeed when the struggles of the generation who made visibility (and corresponding acceptance) possible is spat on or otherwise condescended to by a younger who takes all of our hard work for granted.

I don't think any reasonable person would assume that the same people who fought so hard for gay rights in the earlier days are the same people who are blocking gay rights now. If anything, I believe that the contributions of those men and women are underappreciated by younger GLBT people today. I could be wrong, people are stupid, but I don't opine for stupid people.

 

[Bbucko]

If anything, I believe that the contributions of those men and women are underappreciated by younger GLBT people today. I could be wrong, people are stupid, but I don't opine for stupid people.

If that's not what I said, it's what I meant to say :redface:

 

[joyboytoy79]

What will make America less homophobic? Death. Time and again, it's the over 40s who have the most problem with gay rights and gay marriage in particular. The US is socked with Baby Boomers who hold the most influence at the ballot box because of sheer numbers. As they begin to die off, gaining the recognition of rights will be easier. Once again, it will be the northeast and the west who lead the way while the midwest and deep south will be dragged kicking and screaming.

I'm being picky, mostly because I'm tired, and cranky. I agree with everything, with the exception of your inclusion of "midwest" as a section of the country that is/will be reluctant to accept gay marriage.

I know it seems counter-intuitive, but Iowa was the third state to legalize gay marriage. Yup. Full-fledged marriage for same-sex couples. Iowa. You know, dead-center of the US. You really can't get any more midwestern in mindset than Iowa.

Maybe Iowa is a fluke, but i hope it isn't. I hope it is evidence that the midwest is embracing it's progressive past (the original progressive movement had it's birth, and greatest support in the midwest), and returning to more logical and open-minded approach to mankind and the variations we, as humans, exibit. Mostly, i think we'll have to wait and see what happens.

Anyway.

I'm gonna jump off of detail patrol for a moment and try to get some sleep. If anyone wants to finish writing my 10 page, non-argumentative, informative essay on the life and contributions of John Muir, please feel free!