Afghanistan is a Quagmire.

Discussion in 'Politics' started by D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse, Oct 28, 2009.

  1. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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    Wow. Here's an explosive breaking story from The New York Times.


    Brother of Afghan President Is Said to Be on C.I.A. Payroll

    KABUL, Afghanistan — Ahmed Wali Karzai, the brother of the Afghan president and a suspected player in the country’s booming illegal opium trade, gets regular payments from the Central Intelligence Agency, and has for much of the past eight years, according to current and former American officials.

    The agency pays Mr. Karzai for a variety of services, including helping to recruit an Afghan paramilitary force that operates at the C.I.A.’s direction in and around the southern city of Kandahar, Mr. Karzai’s home.

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    So... Afghan president Hamid Karzai's brother, Ahmed, who is one of the most powerful figures in Afghanistan, according to the Times, with strong connections to both the Taliban and the illegal opium trade is receiving regular payments from our CIA in order to help recruit "paramilitary forces".



    I love this sentence. It's so understated: "Some American officials argue that the reliance on Ahmed Wali Karzai, the most powerful figure in a large area of southern Afghanistan where the Taliban insurgency is strongest, undermines the American push to develop an effective central government that can maintain law and order and eventually allow the United States to withdraw."

    Ya think? Ya think the president's brother who's possibly trafficking in opium and in cahoots with the Taliban insurgency and is being paid by the United States undermines law and order?


    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/28/world/asia/28intel.html?_r=1&hp


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    "The Taliban" is spread out all across the middle east, in over a dozen countries. They control parts of Pakistan. They represent tribal warfare.

    Michael Hoh, a senior foreign service officer and decorated Marine, has resigned in protest, with a 4-page letter of resignation that states:

    "I fail to see the value or the worth in continued U.S. casualties or expenditures of resources in support of the Afghan government in what is, truly, a 35 year old civil war..."



    Matthew Hoh, a Senior Civilian Official in Afghanistan, Resigns Over U.S. Strategy

    Former Marine Says It Will Take Decades And Billions of Dollars to Achieve Success in Afghanistan

    Matthew Hoh Resigns Over U.S. Strategy in Afghanistan - ABC News
     
    #1 D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse, Oct 28, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2009
  2. vince

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    What do you suggest the NATO allies do Willtom?
     
  3. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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    Vince, I'm the first to admit I have no answers to the violence and suicide bombings throughout the middle east (this is not solely an Iraqi or Afghan problem). The same sense of futility that overcame me in 2004 in Iraq is doing so again in Afghanistan.

    A big problem is that americans don't understand the culture of a people who not only tolerate groups like al-qaeda ("the base") and the Taliban (translated as "students") and hamas ("Islamic Resistance Movement") and hezbollah ("party of God"), but rely on them. These various groups are part of the fabric of islamic life and in many, many cases party leaders have been elected into important government positions.

    All I know is: the Taliban is one small part of the problem, and if we defeat them in Afghanistan, we have also inflamed a complete new generation of anti-american activists (it's Iraq all over again).

    I don't want americans to shell out the needed hundreds of billions of dollars (trillions, actually, over a period of ten years) to stamp out the Taliban, while terrorism simply reconstitutes itself with a vengeance in adjourning countries.

    The largest economy in Afghanistan is the opium industry (they're the largest opium producers in the world). This is how the country's poor are gainfully employed (as it were). The Taliban controls the opium fields; if we wipe out the opium industry, we now have a huge underclass of poor Afghani people who now have nothing, and, traditionally, then turn to groups like the Taliban.


    Obama is deciding on exactly what the Afghan strategy will now be. Whether to stay and continue or leave. A decision is expected next week. A military commander is requesting 40,000 more troops for a "surge".

    Gibbs: Obama closer to decision on Afghanistan - Yahoo! News
     
  4. highgrounds

    highgrounds New Member

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    yea dude its known that some US agencies protect and smuggle the drugs planted in afghanistan to the usa and all over the world similar thing to european agencies that protect and smuggle moroccian hash into europe .. also in my country hash planted in it is smuggled with the help of powerful ppl here to germany and amsterdam aswell to brazil and columbia
     
  5. slurper_la

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    and this: Troops In Afghanistan Outnumber Taliban 12-1

    it's time to stop listening to the commanders on the ground and start firing some of them. if we can't do the job then we need to get out.

    our anti-taliban spending in afghanistan is something like 30:1 to pakistan where many more are located, having crossed the border long ago. clearly our military just doesn't know what it's doing - or worse - it knows exactly what it's doing, protecting vested interests, and we'll see no end in the near future.

    .
     
  6. SR_Blarney_Frank

    SR_Blarney_Frank New Member

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    I don't think that's "known" at all.

    What is "known" is that the CIA has been deep in Afghanistan for 30 years, mostly using Pakistani ISI as a conduit for funding a variety of regional and ethnic factions. This goes back to the Soviet occupation and it's not clear that the CIA ever completely extracted itself.

    The odds of a central government succeeding in Afghanistan are slim and none so I can only presume this operation is an attempt to secure some kind of informal power-sharing or alliance with the Taliban. It's already been done in some sections of Pakistan.
     
  7. lucky8

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    This isn't a new thing. The US has been making payments to the Taliban for years now
     
  8. jane rodney

    jane rodney New Member

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  9. gingernuts

    gingernuts Member

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    If you tried to stop the flow of heroin into the west there would be a crimewave as clucking addicts steal more and more to get their fix.

    The problem here is the deafening background noise of mainstream Islam which makes it impossible to detect the truly deadly fundamentalism.

    The US wants to "drain the swamp" of the harmless loudmouths and expose the truly dangerous militants. Can they do this ? In Islam, words and action are not separate as in the West. In Islam you can talk the walk and walk the talk.

    Sir Michael Rose a former British Army cheif spoke to the London Times, in cryptic terms, of how the Romans would poison the fields of enemies who took to the hills. The Afgan must be made reliant on food aid. The only hearts and minds policy must be that of broken hearts and broken minds. Then you will flush this problem out into the open.

    Would this inflame the situation ? You cannot inflame an inferno. The Islamic world has abandoned any attempt to bring proportion to their attempts to find a place in the world. Americas next 911, their next Pearl Harbour will be their last so they can stop at nothing to stop that happening.
     
  10. MercyfulFate

    MercyfulFate New Member

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    We need to withdraw from both wars and end it, for good.
     
  11. Ericsson1228d

    Ericsson1228d Member

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    So what is Obama doing about it?
     
  12. Drifterwood

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    There is an Afghan saying. We can defeat anyone but ourselves.
     
  13. D_Fiona_Farvel

    D_Fiona_Farvel Account Disabled

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    Agreed.
    Essentially thirty years, as SteveVegas pointed out. I mean, the Taliban/tribal leaders were guests at the White House. You would really have to be naive to think they were just visiting and not securing (more) money, training, and arms from the intelligence agencies.

    Particularly since Reagan was a proponent of Wilsonian liberalism, envisioning a world community under the guidance of, and beholden to, the U.S.

    This is a new one for me. Will have to research it.
     
  14. gingernuts

    gingernuts Member

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    In England, one of the first things you learn at primary school is about danegeld. This was a policy in the medeival times where the danes were paid to stop trying to take over England.

    The lesson was that it didn't work and the distaste for financial diplomacy is deeply ingrained as a result.

    If we pay Afgans not to attack us, this places a financial value on their ability to attack us, one which doesn't really exist. I think more aggression might be worth trying, say, kidnap some of their top men and put them in a cell with charlie manson, if attacks continue we give charlie some toys.
     
  15. lucky8

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    Do the words 'Guantanamo Bay' ring a bell?
     
  16. gingernuts

    gingernuts Member

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    Why hasn't Obama closed x-ray yet ?
     
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