Ahmadinejad to Ground Zero?

SpeedoGuy

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Yeah, that was a mistake. It made the United States look simply awful, playing right into the hands of Ahmadinejad. Iranians, as many other middle easterners, place great stock in treating guests with the utmost respect.

I'm not so sure it was a mistake. I think it was Ahmaninejad who made himself look awful to the world.

A world leader who uses his notoriety to promote denial of the holocaust and other obvious stupidities should be questioned pointedly and put on the spot in a public forum, decorum or not. Let everyone clearly see what the guy has to say while not hiding behind diplomatic niceties. University forums are not the same as an address to the UN. Iranians may be offended by the way the questions were posed but much of the rest of the world may be offended by the answers (or non-answers) he supplies.
 

B_New End

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A world leader who uses his notoriety to promote denial of the holocaust and other obvious stupidities should be questioned pointedly and put on the spot in a public forum, decorum or not. Let everyone clearly see what the guy has to say while not hiding behind diplomatic niceties. University forums are not the same as an address to the UN. Iranians may be offended by the way the questions were posed but much of the rest of the world may be offended by the answers (or non-answers) he supplies.

Look, the fact is, it is said Americans are responsible for over 600,000 deaths in Iraq, over 130,000 due directly to American involvment.

The statistical methods for this number gathering is the same as the holocaust.

The holocaust, horrible as it was, should still be open to historical scrutiny, like any other historical event.

That is what Ahmedinijad has said.

Furthermore, he said the Israeli "regime" should be wiped off the map. It sounds alot like a word game played by a certain American administration.


I call bullshit on homosexuals being executed by Ahmedinjad, and I want more than a right wing blog to prove it. [SIZE=-1]www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61688.htm[/SIZE] says bullshit, and so does [SIZE=-1]www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/rsd/rsddocview.html?tbl=RSDCOI&id=441821a37&count=4 -

Only right wing-nut blogs like littlegreenfootballs claim otherwise.

Furthermore, your claim that muslims don't admit they are wrong is bigoted, and of course, ignorant.
[/SIZE]
 

JustAsking

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Yeah, that was a mistake. It made the United States look simply awful, playing right into the hands of Ahmadinejad. Iranians, as many other middle easterners, place great stock in treating guests with the utmost respect. Think of Lot offering his daughters instead to the mob who demanded his guests. For Columbia's president to treat his invited guest so poorly is particularly repugnant to the Iranian people. Ahmadinejad is already losing his lustre at home in Iran, kicking him while he's down is a great way for him to turn around and tell Iranians, "See? Americans really are rude and nasty!" In pandering to their donors, Columbia's president screwed-up royally and created an international incident. He should have run everything he was going to say by a board of his own resident middle eastern scholars.

On this point I agree with you. Everything Ahmadinajad does seems to be for the benefit of his standing with the people of Iran. We don't need to do anything that reinforces that just to enhance our own reputations. The allusion to Lot is apt.

You are an interesting person, Jason. I find myself often in violent disagreement with you and other times in total agreement with you. It makes life interesting around here.
 

Elmer Gantry

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The execution of homosexuals has bee reported by Amnesty and other human rights orgs but it appears to be an issue of local judicial processes going awry rather than a conscious effort by the Iranian Parliament. This is a hangover from the Islamic revolution when the mullahs were given local judicial powers with some pretty disastrous human rights consequences.

His attitude on te Holocaust reads more as a ham fisted protest against Israel and it's flagrant flaunting of UN security resolutions rather than true holocaust denial. If you read his letter to GWB dated May 2006 he seems to be questioning whether the scale of the Jewish Holocaust (as opposed to the earlier Armenian holocaust or the later Palestinian one) is justification for the problems that have been caused by what were arguably the original mid east terrorists, the founders of Israel.
 

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I can see no problem granting permission to a world leader giving respects if we see this attack as a travesty against humanity as many view the Holocaust. Ahmadinejad is very clever in that the US can't win this PR war either way. If they do grant him permission - he would be perceived as a good guy and that he is not as bad as he is portrayed to be, softening US public sentiment against Iran. If they deny permission to him the US will only shed more light to the fact that the war was a huge mistake.

...It would be akin to granting Fidel Castro a visit to JFK's memorial grave at Arlington. Would we have allowed that?

A bad example earllogjam, one in which the USA does not have clean hands.
Nevertheless Fidel Castro did visit the USA during this period:

Khrushchev Thaw - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://i11.ebayimg.com/05/i/000/b0/44/e2b9_1.JPG

As you know Fidel would not visit the USA again as JFK's failed attack on Cuba in 1961 made him aware that the Kennedy Administration wanted him assassinated.

I think that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad should have been allowed to lay a wreath at the 9/11 site. Let the public perceive what they will from the words uttered from his mouth.:footinmouth:
 

JustAsking

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I just watched Christiane Amanpour being interviewed about Ahmadinejad. She has spent time in Iraq and has interviewed him a few times. I have tons of respect for Ms. Amanpour. When she speaks on foreign affairs I listen.

Anyway, she says that most Iranian citizens would like to have a good relationship with the USA. Ahmadinejad, on the other hand, has become a kind of folk hero among the Islamic Extremists in the Middle East in general. Anyone who seems to stand up to the US gets their admiration (think Castro, for example).

To me this explains his bizarre holocaust denial.

I wonder if he will screw up and lose his support in Iran?
 

jason_els

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Look, the fact is, it is said Americans are responsible for over 600,000 deaths in Iraq, over 130,000 due directly to American involvment.

And this makes a difference how? You're presenting a straw man argument.

New End said:
The statistical methods for this number gathering is the same as the holocaust.

The holocaust, horrible as it was, should still be open to historical scrutiny, like any other historical event.

That is what Ahmedinijad has said.

He has also said:

"They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred and place this above God, religions and the prophet."

"The West has given more significance to the myth of the genocide of the Jews, even more significant than God, religion, and the prophets." -Speech of 12/14/05 in Zahedan, Iran as reported by Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting

In December 2006, Iran hosted a holocaust denial conference including such noted anti-semites as David Duke and Frederick Toben.

New End said:
Furthermore, he said the Israeli "regime" should be wiped off the map. It sounds alot like a word game played by a certain American administration.

Yes and no. If you read the synopsis of the speech as published by his own office:

Speaking at a conference dubbed "World without Zionism" here Wednesday which was attended by thousands of students, he said any country which acknowledges the Zionist regime will actually be acknowledging the surrender and defeat of the Islamic world. He further expressed his firm belief that the new wave of confrontations generated in Palestine and the growing turmoil in the Islamic world would in no time wipe Israel away. -Presidency of the Islamic Republic of Iran

Which differs greatly from the wording as published by the state-controlled IRIB:

Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Wednesday called for Israel to be "wiped off the map".

"The establishment of the Zionist regime was a move by the world oppressor against the Islamic world," the President told a conference in Tehran entitled 'the world without Zionism'.

"The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of a war of destiny. The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land," he said.

"As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map," said Ahmadinejad, referring to the late founder of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Imam Khomeini.-Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting


New End said:
I call bullshit on homosexuals being executed by Ahmedinjad, and I want more than a right wing blog to prove it. [SIZE=-1]www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61688.htm[/SIZE] says bullshit, and so does [SIZE=-1]www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/rsd/rsddocview.html?tbl=RSDCOI&id=441821a37&count=4 -

Only right wing-nut blogs like littlegreenfootballs claim otherwise.

Officials Execute Two Teens for Homosexuality. Complete with pictures of executions which you claim do not happen.-From the state-controlled Iranian Student News Agency


New End said:
Furthermore, your claim that muslims don't admit they are wrong is bigoted, and of course, ignorant.

Which wasn't what I said. If you're going to summarize what I've said and then judge me for it at least try to be accurate.

I'm not so sure it was a mistake. I think it was Ahmaninejad who made himself look awful to the world.

A world leader who uses his notoriety to promote denial of the holocaust and other obvious stupidities should be questioned pointedly and put on the spot in a public forum, decorum or not. Let everyone clearly see what the guy has to say while not hiding behind diplomatic niceties. University forums are not the same as an address to the UN. Iranians may be offended by the way the questions were posed but much of the rest of the world may be offended by the answers (or non-answers) he supplies.

I think JustAsking got it right (see below). Politicians have a rule to always play to the home audience as they're the only people politicians have to answer to. Certainly he needs to be called out on his outrageous claims. In that sense, his remarks served a dual purpose both at home and abroad. Each audience wanted what they got. Ahmadinejad may be nuts, but he's not stupid.

On this point I agree with you. Everything Ahmadinajad does seems to be for the benefit of his standing with the people of Iran. We don't need to do anything that reinforces that just to enhance our own reputations. The allusion to Lot is apt.

You are an interesting person, Jason. I find myself often in violent disagreement with you and other times in total agreement with you. It makes life interesting around here.

I think your avatar suits you perfectly:tongue:. Thank you for the compliment and I return it in like spirit.

I just watched Christiane Amanpour being interviewed about Ahmadinejad. She has spent time in Iraq and has interviewed him a few times. I have tons of respect for Ms. Amanpour. When she speaks on foreign affairs I listen.

Anyway, she says that most Iranian citizens would like to have a good relationship with the USA. Ahmadinejad, on the other hand, has become a kind of folk hero among the Islamic Extremists in the Middle East in general. Anyone who seems to stand up to the US gets their admiration (think Castro, for example).

To me this explains his bizarre holocaust denial.

I wonder if he will screw up and lose his support in Iran?

I think she's very on-target. Iran has fascinated me since I was ten and visited the Iranian pavillion at the Montreal Exposition of 1976. People talk about Iraqis being sophisticated and cosmopolitan, but I think Iran is even more so. Their years under the shah, while difficult, gave the country great prosperity and the shah's policy of forced westernization has left a mark which still exists today even if only underground. Even then, Iran has always not quite fit in with the middle east. Not only are they religiously different from their neighboring states, they are also ethnically different.

Ahmadinejad, like Bush now, draws his support from a relative radical minority which has lost ground in face of Iran's dire economic problems. Like Bush, he's now in his administration's end game, trying hard to build a legacy for himself. I genuinely suspect he's not as radical as he makes himself out to be, yet we must accept what a man in his position actually says rather than what we might theorize he truly believes. Any Iranian president is caught between a population that genuinely wants broad reforms, and the mullahs who act as the supreme military and legal leaders. It's a no-win situation as no president can ever deliver just what the people elect a president for.
 

SpeedoGuy

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I think JustAsking got it right (see below). Politicians have a rule to always play to the home audience as they're the only people politicians have to answer to. Certainly he needs to be called out on his outrageous claims. In that sense, his remarks served a dual purpose both at home and abroad. Each audience wanted what they got. Ahmadinejad may be nuts, but he's not stupid.

Well said. Nice post all around.

I also have family from Iran and the place has fascinated me as well.
 

B_New End

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And this makes a difference how? You're presenting a straw man argument.

It's not a straw man.

I am pointing out that statistical analysis of mass casualties can be wrong.

In both the Holocaust, and Iraq. Uh Oh, I must be a nazi because I think it is possible the number 6 million might be statistically exaggerated.


He has also said:
"They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred and place this above God, religions and the prophet."

"The West has given more significance to the myth of the genocide of the Jews, even more significant than God, religion, and the prophets." -Speech of 12/14/05 in Zahedan, Iran as reported by Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting





Lost in translation. the term "myth" could also be "story", but with "sacred" meaning. And if read in context, that a story has been made sacred, beyond any scrutiny, than you will see exactly what he meant.

Remember, he is not speaking in English.
In December 2006, Iran hosted a holocaust denial conference including such noted anti-semites as David Duke and Frederick Toben.
And dozens of Jewish scholars.

I've read enough about his regime statement.

I don't need to see 10 different translations of the same speech, twisted around with quotes here and there to make it sound like something it's not.

As he said "Iran is not going to attack anybody" He has said it time, and time, and time again. And Iran hasn't attacked anyone in centuries.


. Complete with pictures of executions which you claim do not happen.-From the state-controlled Iranian Student News Agency
BULLSHIT!!!

ISNA is an activist, Iranian-style leftist, IRANIAN STUDENT run news agency... and you can't read that shit anyways. (or do you read Persian?)

Furthermore, I gave you a link to OUR OWN STATE DEPARTMENT denying there have been any executions of homosexuals recently.

Which wasn't what I said. If you're going to summarize what I've said and then judge me for it at least try to be accurate.
It's the middle eastern mentality of nothing is ever my fault. A middle eastern man does not admit he's wrong or mistaken.
How is that different from "your claim that muslims don't admit they are wrong"

Fuck you. Fuck your war. Fuck your bloodlust. Fuck your bigotry. Fuck your Islamophobia. Fuck you all... if you dumb fucks drag my country into another fucking war, I swear to god, there will be hell to pay.
 

gjorg

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The best message to give any tourist is that this is a free country and in a democracy, anyone is allowed the freedom to go wherever they wish. To not allow him would make us no different than him.
In your first sentance did you mean terrorist? Not tourist
 

gjorg

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To think that this uneducated twisted religious fanatic has so much power is frightening. Remember Stalin,Hitler,Amin,Khan,Bush and the like.
 

rob_just_rob

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To think that this uneducated twisted religious fanatic has so much power is frightening. Remember Stalin,Hitler,Amin,Khan,Bush and the like.

Not surprising. It's always the uneducated, twisted fanatical ones with the power. The rest of us are too busy thinking, and engaging in divers activities, to singlemindedely pursue power.
 

B_New End

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To think that this uneducated twisted religious fanatic has so much power is frightening. Remember Stalin,Hitler,Amin,Khan,Bush and the like.

Ahmedinijad has not invaded a country... unlike every other leader you listed.

Khan was not a religious fanatic.

And there is no evidence whatsoever that Ahmedinijad is committing any kind of genocide, like Amin, Hitler, or Stalin.

He is not anything like Hitler, or Stalin, or Khan.
 

gjorg

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Ahmedinijad has not invaded a country... unlike every other leader you listed.

Khan was not a religious fanatic.

And there is no evidence whatsoever that Ahmedinijad is committing any kind of genocide, like Amin, Hitler, or Stalin.

He is not anything like Hitler, or Stalin, or Khan.
So your saying he's alot like Bush. Plus, I just asked you to remember twisted, uneducated ,religious fanatics and the danger they bring with them.
 

B_New End

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So your saying he's alot like Bush.

Yes... except but he hasn't invaded any countries.

He may say outrageous things. Lots of politicians do that. Kruchev said he would bury the United States, and he had thousands of nukes.

And for your edit:

I don't think Ahmedinijad is in any way "uneducated".
 

gjorg

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Yes... except but he hasn't invaded any countries.

He may say outrageous things. Lots of politicians do that. Kruchev said he would bury the United States, and he had thousands of nukes.

And for your edit:

I don't think Ahmedinijad is in any way "uneducated".
So the cluelessness about homosexuals is in his grand scheme of things. Ignore it. He is about as educated as any red state american.