Ahmadinejad to Ground Zero?

[gjorg]

Religion, in some circles is called brainwashing!

 

[gjorg]

By the way,you say 6 million , I say 4,343,356.5 so lets call the whole thing off. You know tomato Potato........dildoes

 

[blackbirdsandfloorboards]

Just to add another dimension to this discussion, I saw a bit on Alan Greenspan last night.

His blessing of the Bush Admin. invading Iraq was based on his belief that Saddam possessed the ability to inhibit deportation of oil from the port of Aquba (sp?).

Naturally he was concerned about the both the world market and the US market.

Has anyone critically looked at his recent book? Does he speak of Ahmedinijad?

 

[2322]

It's not a straw man.

I am pointing out that statistical analysis of mass casualties can be wrong.

In both the Holocaust, and Iraq. Uh Oh, I must be a nazi because I think it is possible the number 6 million might be statistically exaggerated.

You're addressing a point not germane to the argument.

Lost in translation. the term "myth" could also be "story", but with "sacred" meaning. And if read in context, that a story has been made sacred, beyond any scrutiny, than you will see exactly what he meant.

Remember, he is not speaking in English.

So you're claiming that neither Ahmadinejad's own office nor the IRIB have fluent English translators? They know perfectly well that anything they publish in English is for foreign consumption and that every single point needs to be precisely clear. They're the ones who translated the text and the statemenst have been posted long enough for any necessary corrections to be made. Given the inflamatory nature of the comments you can be sure they are well aware of what was said and what the reactions have been. That the statements still stand without correction demonstrates that both offices are standing by their translations.

And dozens of Jewish scholars.

Anti-Zionist Jewish "scholars" who deny the holocaust ever took place.

I've read enough about his regime statement.

I don't need to see 10 different translations of the same speech, twisted around with quotes here and there to make it sound like something it's not.

Those quotes are not twisted. They are quotes directly made and translated by the sources themselves. They are not misquotes nor mistranslations.

As he said "Iran is not going to attack anybody" He has said it time, and time, and time again. And Iran hasn't attacked anyone in centuries.

Discounting the takeover of sovereign US territory in 1979, you're right. Iran instead uses proxies to fight its war by arming and funding the Taliban in Afghanistan, Shiite insurgents in Iraq, and Hezbollah in Lebanon and Palestine. All of these have a policy of targeting Americans, using bombings and kidnappings, and have caused the deaths of Americans and many more civilians of other countries.

BULLSHIT!!!

ISNA is an activist, Iranian-style leftist, IRANIAN STUDENT run news agency... and you can't read that shit anyways. (or do you read Persian?)

All media in Iran is under the control of the Ministry of Culture and Islamic Guidance. That story is still there, hosted on an Iranian domain, complete with the photographs. There is no denial, no retraction.

Furthermore, I gave you a link to OUR OWN STATE DEPARTMENT denying there have been any executions of homosexuals recently.

The document you cited concluded no such thing. The document cites several conflicting reports by other various human rights organizations:

According to the Paris-based International Federation of Human Rights, the justice system did not actively investigate charges of homosexuality. There were known meeting places for homosexuals, and there had been no recent reports of homosexuals executed.​

The paragraph continues:

However, the group acknowledged it was possible that a case against a homosexual could be pursued. Conversely, the London-based homosexual rights group OutRage! claimed over four thousand homosexuals had been executed in the country since the Islamic revolution in 1979. A September 29 Western newspaper gave one man's account of a systematic effort by security agents and basiji to use Internet sites to entrap homosexuals. -Iran: Country Report on Human Rights​

How is that different from "your claim that muslims don't admit they are wrong"

Nowhere did I use the word, muslim, because I did not mean muslim. I was referring to a cultural trait, not a religious one. The concept of face is found in many cultures including Persian and Arabic.

Nor did I say it was they never admitted they were wrong, just that nothing is ever their fault. There's an important difference.

Fuck you. Fuck your war. Fuck your bloodlust. Fuck your bigotry. Fuck your Islamophobia. Fuck you all... if you dumb fucks drag my country into another fucking war, I swear to god, there will be hell to pay.

You say I'm lusting for blood, I'm bigoted, I'm Islamophobic, and I support the war. If you have read any of my posts and comprehended them, you would know that none of those things are true. What you're doing is attempting to halt all criticism of Iran out of fear that the criticism will result in another war. You're attempting to censor truth to gain a political end and that makes you no better than the Bush administration you apparently hate. It also makes your argument weak because you lose credibility once your alleged facts are challenged. Either admit you were wrong or change your argument. Descending into a mindless rant of, "Fuck you," does yourself no good no matter what.

 

[B_New End]

You're addressing a point not germane to the argument.

No, you just missed the point.

So you're claiming that neither Ahmadinejad's own office nor the IRIB have fluent English translators? They know perfectly well that anything they publish in English is for foreign consumption and that every single point needs to be precisely clear. They're the ones who translated the text and the statemenst have been posted long enough for any necessary corrections to be made. Given the inflamatory nature of the comments you can be sure they are well aware of what was said and what the reactions have been. That the statements still stand without correction demonstrates that both offices are standing by their translations.

They are fluent, but context is key.

Ahmedinijad does not want annihilation of Israel, he wants it returned to the palestinians.

Anti-Zionist Jewish "scholars" who deny the holocaust ever took place.

Why the "scholoars", they were scholars. Not all of them were denying it ever happened.... why don't you try reading what they were saying before making assumptions? Quite of few of them were saying zionists were behind it.

The document you cited concluded no such thing. The document cites several conflicting reports by other various human rights organizations:

According to the Paris-based International Federation of Human Rights, the justice system did not actively investigate charges of homosexuality. There were known meeting places for homosexuals, and there had been no recent reports of homosexuals executed.​

The paragraph continues:

However, the group acknowledged it was possible that a case against a homosexual could be pursued. Conversely, the London-based homosexual rights group OutRage! claimed over four thousand homosexuals had been executed in the country since the Islamic revolution in 1979. A September 29 Western newspaper gave one man's account of a systematic effort by security agents and basiji to use Internet sites to entrap homosexuals. -Iran: Country Report on Human Rights​

There is no evidence there.... 4,000 homosexuals executed!? Proof? Or lets just toss around allaegations... you know, get teh gheys on our side for war too. It's all a political game, can we get the 66% we need to start bombing?

"possible" a case "could be pursued"?

It's "possible" cases could be pursued here in the United States still.
​

Discounting the takeover of sovereign US territory in 1979, you're right. Iran instead uses proxies to fight its war by arming and funding the Taliban in Afghanistan, Shiite insurgents in Iraq, and Hezbollah in Lebanon and Palestine. All of these have a policy of targeting Americans, using bombings and kidnappings, and have caused the deaths of Americans and many more civilians of other countries.

Embassies don't count. America uses proxies, just like they did to install the Shah....

who you praised, for his "forced westernization". Good one, he turned Iran to the thocratic state it is today by trying to force his will on people who didn't want it... oh, and being the most corrupt asshole ever to run Iran.


But no, according to you, and 3 other historians in the world, the Shahs was one great dude. Find me anyone who seriously can say that with a straight face!

All media in Iran is under the control of the Ministry of Culture and Islamic Guidance. That story is still there, hosted on an Iranian domain, complete with the photographs. There is no denial, no retraction.

You said "government run"

Nowhere did I use the word, muslim, because I did not mean muslim. I was referring to a cultural trait, not a religious one. The concept of face is found in many cultures including Persian and Arabic.

Nor did I say it was they never admitted they were wrong, just that nothing is ever their fault. There's an important difference.

Semantics.

What you're doing is attempting to halt all criticism of Iran out of fear that the criticism will result in another war.

Exactamundo..... and when you toss allegations with only hearsay from right wing blogs and anti-Iranian propaganda outlets, you are not helping the situation.

Wasn't that you, that tried to claim Iran doesn't prosecute it's rapists?

ou say 6 million , I say 4,343,356.5 so lets call the whole thing off. You know tomato Potato........dildoes

Hey, Iraq Body count says 80,000, the lancet study says 700,000. Who gives a fuck what the truth is, lets just let the biggest number win. Let's not look at the statistical methodology. 700,000 dead in Iraq due directly to the American invasion. So let it be written, so let it be done.

 

[2322]

No, you just missed the point.

I did not miss the point.

They are fluent, but context is key.
Ahmedinijad does not want annihilation of Israel, he wants it returned to the palestinians.

Presented with verified evidence by the man's own mouth and hand yet you continue to deny.

Why the "scholoars"[sic], they were scholars. Not all of them were denying it ever happened.... why don't you try reading what they were saying before making assumptions? Quite of few of them were saying zionists were behind it.

Scholarship implies someone who knows of what they speak. Jews who claim the holocaust never happened or that the Jews caused the holocaust themselves are denying the largest body of evidence for an event ever gathered. Calling anyone who does that a scholar is shameful.

I can't believe you're defending holocaust deniers.

There is no evidence there.... 4,000 homosexuals executed!? Proof? Or lets just toss around allaegations... you know, get teh gheys on our side for war too. It's all a political game, can we get the 66% we need to start bombing? "possible" a case "could be pursued"?

Which is why I said the document said it was inconclusive. Now you're claiming the very same document you have just cited again in another post has, "...no evidence there," and disclaiming the very same document you originally presented.

Embassies don't count. America uses proxies, just like they did to install the Shah....who you praised, for his "forced westernization". Good one, he turned Iran to the thocratic state it is today by trying to force his will on people who didn't want it... oh, and being the most corrupt asshole ever to run Iran. But no, according to you, and 3 other historians in the world, the Shahs was one great dude. Find me anyone who seriously can say that with a straight face!

Embassies count to every other government in the world.

The rest, save for the statement regarding the shah's corruption, is a lie. I did not praise the shah nor did I claim he, "...was one great dude."

You said "government run"

In as much as any student organization must submit to state control in Iran.

Semantics.

Not all muslims are Arabs or Persians nor are all Arabs and Persians muslims. Your allegation is false.

What you're doing is attempting to halt all criticism of Iran out of fear that the criticism will result in another war.

Exactamundo..... and when you toss allegations with only hearsay from right wing blogs and anti-Iranian propaganda outlets, you are not helping the situation.

The Office of the Presidency and the IRIB and the Iranian Students sites are, "anti-Iranian propaganda outlets?" That is irrational.

So you admit to calling me a liar, misquoting documents, supporting holocaust deniers, denying evidence of human rights abuses, and denying the very words and publications of Iran's own government to further your own agenda. I am glad we have established that and I am pleased that I am not helping your situation.

:soapbox:

You are one revolting individual. Truly you are. You have proven that there is nothing to credit your character as a respectable person. You lie, you libel, you deny the most obvious facts, you disclaim the worst human rights abuses, and all for what? To prevent another war? Not only do you dishonor yourself but every coalition soldier in Iraq living or dead, every single man, woman, and child who suffer under the Iranian regime and the millions who died at the hands of Nazi Germany. By denying you make their deaths worthless. By denying you enable lies and assist in the deaths of more Americans, Iraqis, Israelis, and Iranians.

If there is any justice in this world you will get drafted, sent to Iran, and captured by an Iranian unit of gay Jews. Pity there aren't any.

Wasn't that you, that tried to claim Iran doesn't prosecute it's rapists?

You are mistaken or lying yet again.

Hey, Iraq Body count says 80,000, the lancet study says 700,000. Who gives a fuck what the truth is, lets just let the biggest number win. Let's not look at the statistical methodology. 700,000 dead in Iraq due directly to the American invasion. So let it be written, so let it be done.

The straw man yet again.

 

[playainda336]

I applaud the Iranian president for spending so much time to reach out to our country and I'm saddened at the numerous times we keep slapping his hands. He wants to place a wreath, let the man place a wreath. What's the problem?

 

[2322]

I applaud the Iranian president for spending so much time to reach out to our country and I'm saddened at the numerous times we keep slapping his hands. He wants to place a wreath, let the man place a wreath. What's the problem?

He's the leader of an oppressive regime that supports terrorism, repression of women, non-muslims, gays, and that such a person visiting the site where so many died at the hands of terrorists would be extremely disrespectful?

Just a hunch.

 

[B_New End]

I did not miss the point.

You did, and you continue to, calling it a strawman, when it isn't.

Myth does not mean the story is false. Only in current American slang has it come to mean that. Look it up in the dictionary, the first two meanings have nothing to do with falsehood. It is a cultural misunderstanding of the word. To a religious person like Ahmedinijad, or his translators, myth's can be perfectly real, they are just sacred.

Presented with verified evidence by the man's own mouth and hand yet you continue to deny.

I am not denying it, I said he wants Israel to be united with Palestine, as do many Palestinians, and wants to wipe the regime from the map.

You are mistaken or lying yet again.

A "no, that wasn't me", would have sufficed. Needless to say, someone on these boards made that claim.

I can't believe you're defending holocaust deniers.

Fuck you

Which is why I said the document said it was inconclusive. Now you're claiming the very same document you have just cited again in another post has, "...no evidence there," and disclaiming the very same document you originally presented.

I am not disclaiming my own document. There is no evidence there. That is exactly what I said in the first place.

Embassies count to every other government in the world.

So the North Vietnamese invaded America?

The rest, save for the statement regarding the shah's corruption, is a lie. I did not praise the shah nor did I claim he, "...was one great dude."

Els: ooohh... ooohh, his forced westernization policies left a wonderful legacy that still helps Iran today... oooh ooh, the shah was great....

In as much as any student organization must submit to state control in Iran.

Is that beeping I hear? Sounds like a backup of your statement to me. You got pwned. I called you on your bullshit., now you have to do the run around. If you meant controlled, why didn't you say so. No, you said "run", because you probably didn't even know what it stood for. Plus, you linked to a site in Persian... do you read Persian? (second time I asked)

Not all muslims are Arabs or Persians nor are all Arabs and Persians muslims. Your allegation is false.

Oooh... oooh, excuse me. Your bigotry and ignorance was aimed against Persians and Arabs, not muslims. Well, that makes you such a better expert.

Semantics.

The Office of the Presidency and the IRIB and the Iranian Students sites are, "anti-Iranian propaganda outlets?" That is irrational.

Office of presidency, IRIB, No.
Iranian students, Yes.

Right wing blogs, cutting, snipping, interpereting, and taking words and meaning from these sources out of cultural context, yes.

So you admit to calling me a liar, misquoting documents, supporting holocaust deniers, denying evidence of human rights abuses, and denying the very words and publications of Iran's own government to further your own agenda.

Hey, if those rose tinted glasses make your view of your own bigotry and ignorance more palettable to your soul, so be it.

I did not admit to misquoting documents.

Fuck you for accusing me of supporting holocaust deniers. Talk about a straw man.

Evidence of human rights abuses? When did I "deny" them? Or do you mean me taking your "it's inconclusive" statement, and flushing it like the shit it is. In case you didn't know, inconclusive does not mean you get to claim it is happening. Furthermore, if there is no evidence of it happening, than it is on YOU, and the people claiming it is, to prove it. YOu could say ahmedinijad sacrifices babies to Baal... but if there is little evidence to support it, it's not "inconclusive"... it means there needs to be more evidence before making such a wild claim.

I am not denying the words. Clearly, Ahmedinijad wants "regime change" in Israel, and the right of return of the Palestinians.

I am glad we have established that and I am pleased that I am not helping your situation.

It's not "my" situation. It is the situation in American discourse, which you, and thousands of other ignorant, bigoted alarmists, are polluting with your own cultural misunderstandings and lack of understanding of human nature and history.

You are one revolting individual. Truly you are. You have proven that there is nothing to credit your character as a respectable person.

You lie,

where?

you libel,

where?

you deny the most obvious facts,

where?

you disclaim the worst human rights abuses, and all for what?

Oh, you mean the "inconclusive" claim that Ahmedinijads government has executed homosexuals? YOU HAVE YET TO PROVIDE PROOF OF THIS. CALLING SOMETHING "INCONCLUSIVE" DOES NOT MEAN YOU HAVE PROVEN YOUR POINT!

To prevent another war? Not only do you dishonor yourself but every coalition soldier in Iraq living or dead, every single man, woman, and child who suffer under the Iranian regime

Shut the fuck up.

and the millions who died at the hands of Nazi Germany. By denying you make their deaths worthless. By denying you enable lies and assist in the deaths of more Americans, Iraqis, Israelis, and Iranians.

I never, ever, ever, denied the holocaust.... fool.

If there is any justice in this world you will get drafted, sent to Iran, and captured by an Iranian unit of gay Jews. Pity there aren't any.

Jews in Iran:

Persian Jews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Feel stupid yet?

Want to talk about lies and libel?


Fuck you. Fuck you ad hominems, fuck your straw men.

The straw man yet again.

Let me explain this, so a self admitted anti-arab/persian bigot, and ignoramous like you, can understand.

The statistical methods used to calculate the dead in Iraq are the same as the methods used to estimate the dead during the holocaust.

If the number 6 million is to be accepted, than the number 600,000 should be accepted. There are those who would poo-poo the Lancet numbers, but accept the holocaust numbers.

I am not denying the holocaust, NOR AM I DENYING THE NUMBER OF 6 MILLION. However, I find the lancet study specious. I am not an expert in statistics, but it does make me wonder hwo they got that number, when Iraq body count had only 60,000 confirmed deaths at the time, and estimated it could be as high as 180,000, but no more.

DO YOU GET IT YET.... FUCKER? OR DO YOU WANT TO CALL ME A HOLOCAUST DENIER ONE MORE TIME JUST TO MAKE YOURSELF FEEL BETTER FOR FAILING TO GRASP THIS CONCEPT?

You aren't revolting, just arrogant ignorance at it's finest.

 

[frizzle]

He's the leader of an oppressive regime that supports terrorism, repression of women, non-muslims, gays, and that such a person visiting the site where so many died at the hands of terrorists would be extremely disrespectful?

Just a hunch.

I'm assuming that's your opinion though.

 

[B_New End]

He's the leader of an oppressive regime that supports terrorism, repression of women, non-muslims, gays, and that such a person visiting the site where so many died at the hands of terrorists would be extremely disrespectful?

Just a hunch.

Supports terrorism: You mean that pesky hezbollah that sent the greedy Israelis trying to take the Litani river from Lebanon packing home?

repression of women: true, but that is more cultural, than anything he can do about it.

non-muslims: true... ba hai has a hard time in Iran. 30,000 - 40,000 Jews live in Iran, and 140,000+ Christians live there.

What!!??? BUT IRAN IS THE ISLAM EVIL!!!1!!!! THEY KILL ALL NON MUSLIMS!!! CUT THEIR HEADS OFF!!1!!! I READ IT ON LITTLE GREEN FOOTBALLS!

Gays: more cultural, than regime.


Does anybody remember when ahmedinijad tried to lift the ban on women going to soccer games?

President lifts ban on women watching football in Iran | Iran | Guardian Unlimited

You are attributing much to "regime" that is deeply cultural.

***************

Of course, the Saudis can visit, and did a few days after 9-11..... but they aren't "an oppressive regime that supports terrorism, repression of women, non-muslims, gays"



P.S. I love how you use the word "regime". See, you and Ahmedinijad aren't so different afterall.

 

[2322]

I'm assuming that's your opinion though.

The hunch? Yes
The accusations against the government of Iran? No

 

[D_Pubert Stabbingpain]

In your first sentance did you mean terrorist? Not tourist

No, there are no spelling errors in my previous post. You may want to check yours. My point is that I view his visit to Ground Zero as I would any other tourist.
Please do not use large fonts. It comes across as shouting.:smile:

 

[gjorg]

No, there are no spelling errors in my previous post. You may want to check yours. My point is that I view his visit to Ground Zero as I would any other tourist.
Please do not use large fonts. It comes across as shouting.:smile:

Please don't tell me what to do or not to do.:smile:It comes across as severe assholianism! Yes a tourist to ground zero! Talk about taking that photo op home to make us look good! Tell me one thing? What is your nationality or religion? Before you get into "what difference does that make" just truthfully answer the question.

BTW, these quotes within quotes within quotes that go on ad nauseum are boring and I don't think they are taken seriously!Nothing to do with 15shooter.

 

[Elmer Gantry]

I don't think I've heard one argument that delves into sufficient historical context which, in itself, is a large part of the problem.

These are some very old wounds being bought up here.

 

[B_Chris63]

The Iranian leader has asked for permission to lay a wreath at Ground Zero during his visit to New York. Story below.

U.S. May Escort Ahmadinejad to Ground Zero - September 19, 2007 - The New York Sun


Would you grant him permission? Any speculation about his motivation?

he is right to do so ! To take the mickey out-of Bush and the neo-cohens who rule america, during that time Iraq is being bombed for ,othing ! from 1990, there have been hundresds od iraquies killed because of shortage of medecine and so on. Je déteste bush and co , le leader iranien a raison !

 

[gjorg]

he is right to do so ! To take the mickey out-of Bush and the neo-cohens who rule america, during that time Iraq is being bombed for ,othing ! from 1990, there have been hundresds od iraquies killed because of shortage of medecine and so on. Je déteste bush and co , le leader iranien a raison !

What is a neo-cohen? A Jew? Or right wing closeted homosexual jewish lawyers?Very few people will see it your way and almost everyone will see it as a slap in the face to real Americans.You can't believe that he is actually grieving! And that should be the only reason for him to make an appearance.

 

[Elmer Gantry]

He doesn't have to be grieving, the time for that is long gone. It is an attempt at showing some respect.

 

[gjorg]

He doesn't have to be grieving, the time for that is long gone. It is an attempt at showing some respect.

All I asked for was the definition of TOOL. Thanks for putting it so eloquent!

 

[Puntie]

No! Absolutely not.

I understand that with hosting the UN comes certain indignities we have to swallow. His visa should allow him to travel to the Iranian UN delegation, the UN itself, and the airport. Any time he's not in transit to or in one of those places, he should be subject to arrest.

Ahmadinejad clearly had a hand in violating US sovereignity and taking Americans hostage on US soil. Unlike any other world leader, he has committed felonies on US soil. Several of the US embassy hostages recall Ahmadinejad as being involved in the taking of the hostages and the embassy itself. To allow him to walk or even travel unfettered here in the US is a travesty. If Iran had a leader who was not a US felon, then I would have no problem with it. This is a play to show his own people that he can walk into the heart of America with impugnity and that we're too weak to touch him.

If Ahamdinejad can't respect US sovereignity and world diplomatic protocols then why should he expect us to respect his?

Remind me again, When has the US ever respected another nations soverignity??