Aids/hiv - A Myth?

D_Merton Prehensile

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HIV was mean in the 60s Hepatitis Infection Virus.

its a fact.

HIV has nothing to do with Hepatitis, hepatitis affect your liver, whereas HIV affects your immune system.

HIV is [SIZE=-1]Human Immunodeficiency Virus it hasn't changed, it will never change and because the virus' DNA has so many flaws, it constantly changes its 'form' and so the body can't produce antibodies to fight it, and so your cells can only sit and watch as it suppresses and destroys your Immune system.

AIDS on the other hand isn't a virus at all it's a Syndrome; the result of HIV.
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]'Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome' - because the HIV virus has destroyed, basically, your immune system you can no longer fight off infections.

Some people say "can't you just take Antibiotics then?" but no, antibiotics work along side the immune system... if you don't have one to start with they don't work.

So because the form of the virus constantly changes there is nothing your body can do - in the time it takes the body to produces anti-bodies for the current proteins on the virus they've changed so the antibody is rendered useless. Thus there, as of yet, can't be a cure.

To the point, it has nothing to do with Hepatitis. :tongue:
[/SIZE]
 

B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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NIC, you know it would be easy to dismiss it as INSANITY if it weren't for the scary number of people who believe this about the epidemic.

HM, that was exactly my point. Do you know how many retards there are out there who believe in conspiracies behind all the other crazy shit I listed?
 

B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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This video was total bunk, completely biased. Most of the people they interviewed were nuts, making all sorts of ridiculous assertions, stuff that even I know is crap and I'm certainly no doctor, yet they brought in nobody credible to challenge any of them- they just played the scary conspiracy music while they were talking. I just sat through all 2 hours of it. Maybe the worst part is at the very end when one of the proponents of this nonsense smugly states that even if the "AIDS dissenters" are wrong, at least they're doing a lot of good, while if the "AIDS supporters" are wrong they could be doing all sorts of harm. It didn't even occur to this guy the enormous damage that could be done by spreading this misinformation, and I fail to see what good they are doing.
 

JustAsking

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... It didn't even occur to this guy the enormous damage that could be done by spreading this misinformation, and I fail to see what good they are doing.
I must add that the damage HIV denialists are doing is already documented. The death toll in those countries who are ignoring the mainstream science is well known. HIV denialists have a lot of blood on their hands.
 

B_Hung Muscle

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Do you know how many retards there are out there who believe in conspiracies behind all the other crazy shit I listed?


Since I've worked in tropical infectious diseases for 15 years, sadly, I do know. It makes me crazy. Don't even get me started on the lunatics who believe vaccines cause autism. These crazies have anointed the brain surgeon, Jenny McCarthy, as their chief spokesperson.
 

chico8

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Deconstructing The Myth Of AIDS (Gary Null)

Rather a long clip (2 hours) deconstructing the myth of aids.

Mentioned:

-How you can be tested HIV positive in Africa and with the same test you will be negative in Australia

-How AZT and other drugs are killing "HIV positive" victims

-How a test proved that HIV wasn't sexually transmitted between couples with a HIV positive partner

etc. etc.

Conspiracy?

Why is it so important for you to believe this? I simply don't understand?
 

dongalong

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If anything, this thread may get some people to educate themselves by doing a bit more research and not just believe everything that we are supposed to hear from both sides of the story. I have certainly learned from the links provided by kundalinikat, thank you by the way!

I watched many conspiracy videos on Google and Youtube during a couple of days off work and no way are they all bullshit! There are so many cases of propaganda and smear campaigns used to achieve huge financial gains and/or control.

One thing I learned from those clips was to step back and look at both sides and try to understand why people would go to such efforts to put accross their message.

Concerning the documentary I linked in the OP, IF they are right, many millions of dollars in funding, many jobs, treatments etc. etc. will be lost or proven to be a fraud which equals lawsuits etc. etc. - certain Yaysayers have a big interest in building up the myth.

IF they are way off the truth, what do the documentarty makers have to gain from making such claims?

OK I answered that one for myself here! - PUBLICITY, DVD Sales, Book sales, website hits = millions of dollars!!!

Thank you for your time! :rolleyes:
 

B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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I watched many conspiracy videos on Google and Youtube during a couple of days off work and no way are they all bullshit!

Quantity doesn't equal credibility. Yes, there are real conspiracies out there, but those are the ones the conspiracy nuts tend to not want to believe for some reason. (such as the conspiracy by Al Qaeda to simultaneously attack the World Trade Center and the Pentagon)
 

chico8

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If anything, this thread may get some people to educate themselves by doing a bit more research and not just believe everything that we are supposed to hear from both sides of the story. I have certainly learned from the links provided by kundalinikat, thank you by the way!

I watched many conspiracy videos on Google and Youtube during a couple of days off work and no way are they all bullshit! There are so many cases of propaganda and smear campaigns used to achieve huge financial gains and/or control.

Ah, now I understand, you have conspiracy on the brain and since some online video conspiracists are believable, all must be, so therefore rather than doing any research yourself, you're going to allow your mushy brain to believe the HIV conspiracy.

I've no doubt the drug companies are out to maximize their profits. But, when it comes to the HIV/AIDS link, I have no doubt whatsoever. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever to deny it. Too much solid research has gone into it and too many people have died. At the same time, since HAART was introduced, the death rate amongst those taking HAART has plummeted. You can't have it both ways.
 

JustAsking

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If anything, this thread may get some people to educate themselves by doing a bit more research and not just believe everything that we are supposed to hear from both sides of the story. I have certainly learned from the links provided by kundalinikat, thank you by the way!

I watched many conspiracy videos on Google and Youtube during a couple of days off work and no way are they all bullshit! There are so many cases of propaganda and smear campaigns used to achieve huge financial gains and/or control.

One thing I learned from those clips was to step back and look at both sides and try to understand why people would go to such efforts to put accross their message.

Concerning the documentary I linked in the OP, IF they are right, many millions of dollars in funding, many jobs, treatments etc. etc. will be lost or proven to be a fraud which equals lawsuits etc. etc. - certain Yaysayers have a big interest in building up the myth.

IF they are way off the truth, what do the documentarty makers have to gain from making such claims?

OK I answered that one for myself here! - PUBLICITY, DVD Sales, Book sales, website hits = millions of dollars!!!

Thank you for your time! :rolleyes:
dong,
You make a couple of reasonable points here, but there is one ingredient missing from your research process. The key point is that scientists do not come to individual conclusions by reviewing pro and con claims about anything using the process you are proposing. If that were true, the prevailing scientific opinion would be a kind of "political" one.

Secondly, the idea that the entire professional medical scientific community is "on the take", to the last man is absolutely ludicrous. Have you ever worked with scientists? I worked for 10 years in three different Universities for biology, chemistry, and physics departments. Let me tell you that there is no other institution in the world that has more independent, extremely critical, egotistical, contentious, and creative people. Every scientist I have ever met was out to prove that his own work is either showing something new, unique, or maybe revolutionary, and that the prevailing wisdom might be wrong. This is how you make a name for yourself in the scientific world. In other words, the scientific community is full of people just like you, who are not willing to take anything for granted.

Do you think you are the only person who might have an intellectual curiousity about the truth of this matter? Do you think that every scientist working in the field of HIV/AIDs research goes to work every day and quietly lives a lie because they are on the take?

However, there are two things they have that you don't have. One is that they know that the only reliable way to further anything in science is to publish data and to propose a theory through peer reviewed professional journals where each submission can be thoroughly criticized analyzed by other highly critical independent bastards who work in the field. Then, even that is not enough. Not only are the submitted articles reviewed as to their methodology (this is the ultimate "show your work" excercise), but results and conclusions are not acknowledged as significant until other workers at other institutions have duplicated it and found the same results, or have successfully used the work in work of their own.

The second thing that they have is sufficient trainiing in their field which allows them to properly analyze the work of others before they accept their findings.

Although this process seems restrictive, over the last 400 years, it is the most productive intellectual process that has ever been known in human history. And over the last 400 years, some of the most astonishingly useful theories have been completely supplanted by new and better ones in only a few generations.

Consider what kind of revolution had to have taken place for the scientifiic community to agree to replace that astounding intellectual achievement that was Newton's with something completely different. Or for something as outrageous as continental drift to revolutionize geology.

A good recent example is Dr. Lynn Margulis and her challenge to conventional Darwinian Evolution. I recommend studying the history of her quest to get biologists to take her endosymbiotic theory of evolution seriously. Dr. Margulis is in many ways a crackpot, but certain aspects of her work is genius and visionary.

The only way to sort out the crackpot stuff from the visionary stuff is to subject her work to the critical analysis of the mainstream community, counting on the fact that no matter how entrenched they might be for a while, the actual evidence cannot be denied.

This is what happened and an entire generation of biologists change their mind. They did so because their process compelled them to, even against their own personal opinions about endosymbiosis and Dr. Margulis. This sort of thing happens in small ways everyday in science and in big ways within the lifetime of most scientists. This is a process that forces people who have made a career on a particular theory have to admit they are wrong when faced with the rigorous work from someone who people think is a crackpot. Conversely, the same process will reject the new work from a Nobel Prize winner because it is not rigorous enough.

Dr. Margulis still thinks Neo-Darwinism is complete junk, and she is very vocal about it. But the professional community is compelled to accept her endosymbiotic challenge because the evidence is irrefutable when subjected to the rigorous process.

What is the difference between Dr. Margulis and the HIV denialists? The difference is that Dr. Margulis used the only process that is reliable, whereas the denialists take their case right to the public. They do this because they know they don't have a case. They do this because they really don't care what the scientific community thinks. They want to affect public policy directly. So they make flashy videos and endless innuendos about the dogmatic scientific community whose every member is on the take from some big pharmaceutical company.

Read the wikipedia article on Dr. Margulis and think about Einstein and others who in only a matter of decades were able to completely overthrow or seriously contribute to theories that had been established for centuries.

Like I said before. In the great court of scientific inquiry, hucksters like Deuseberg and other science denialists are not in there submitting evidence. They are outside in the parking lot distributing leaflets. If you really want to know the truth, go and audit the court room. Don't read the leaflets.

I submit to you that if you had real evidence that HIV was not the cause of AIDS, and you worked through the mainstream scientific process, you would end up with a Nobel Prize. I also submit to you that every other scientist in the field is thinking the same thing and thinks it every day (as they about the stuff in whatever field they are working in).

In order for you to buy into HIV denailism, you have to buy into the fact that the scientific community is compromised. If you believe that, you are lost because now you are left with no process except "he said, she said". You would have to believe that scientists all around the world, down to the last man, have been "bought" by some major corporation, and these people from all walks of life, from all different political persusasions, backed by all sorts of different governments with their different agendas have agreed to live the lie everyday as they come to work and participate in a conspiracy.

If you believe this, you are eligible for a tin-foil hat to keep the UFOs away.
 

dongalong

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I have a limited understanding about the peer review system which I discovered thanks to this site about developing technologies.

Apart from the many stories of suppression of some of the, "oil dependance threatening technologies", there are many stories about how peer reviews reject apparently effective energy generators because they defy the current laws of physics.
A famous company called Streorn invented an overunity "magnet motor" producing more energy than was used to start it which is said to convert "zero point" energy or the "ether" into usable electricity.
Since it seemed to defy physics rather than go through a peer review they went public and recruited a team of renouned scientists to test it and publish the conclusions - it is very interesting because it will challenge the official peer system.
There are other stories about scientists rejecting new ideas which may challenge their own research grants, I find it hard to believe that the peer system is completely free from corruption!

Still, there's no better system for the moment, I hope all those creative minds find a cure, fast!
 

JustAsking

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I have a limited understanding about the peer review system which I discovered thanks to this site about developing technologies.

Apart from the many stories of suppression of some of the, "oil dependance threatening technologies", there are many stories about how peer reviews reject apparently effective energy generators because they defy the current laws of physics.
A famous company called Streorn invented an overunity "magnet motor" producing more energy than was used to start it which is said to convert "zero point" energy or the "ether" into usable electricity.
Since it seemed to defy physics rather than go through a peer review they went public and recruited a team of renouned scientists to test it and publish the conclusions - it is very interesting because it will challenge the official peer system.
There are other stories about scientists rejecting new ideas which may challenge their own research grants, I find it hard to believe that the peer system is completely free from corruption!

Still, there's no better system for the moment, I hope all those creative minds find a cure, fast!

dong,
Your example is perfect. This is the exact pattern of the very sophisticated crackpot/con artist technology scam. Streorn is the latest poster child for this.

First of all they have never submitted any papers to any scientific journals about the theory or the practice behind their claims. So they have not been "rejected by the scientific community" as they claim.

Second, they have immediately invoked the "crackpot" lament and justification for not doing so, which is that they know they will be refused because their claims "defy physics" (as if physicists are not interested in new phenomenon).

Third, they brought their case right to a popular audience in a big flashy PR event, which was an article in The Economist.

Fourth, they patented interesting magnetic geegaws that were not very interesting, but did not patent the actual device about wihch they have made their claims. Their reason was, once again, the lament that the patent office would reject such things because they defy physics. This is nonsense, because there are countless devices with similar claims that have been patented.

Fifth, their Economist article challenged the scientific community to come and dispute their claims. (this is classic, and the MO of all crackpots and their supporters, such as Andro Man who came here and demanded people watch the AIDS video and dispute it.) As part of their "fair review" process, notice that Streorno is controlling all aspects of the review including choosing the "reputable scientists" who will do the reviewing. The justification is that it is the scientific community that is prejudiced and biased, therefore Streorn has to protect the objectivity of the review. (Anyone who falls for this stuff, I have a bridge I would love to sell them.)

Sixth, in order to add credibility, Streorno claims that some actual scientists did review the device previously, but requested that their identities and their findings remain private (how convenient).

Seven, a dramatic demonstration was planned for the device under complete control of Streorno last June. The demo was a public affair and was broadcast over the Internet with great fanfare. It was a complete success as a PR event as it attracted more dupes to the concept, but mysteriously, the device failed to perform. Vague reasons were given out that the device had bearing failure or something. (Aww, how unfortunate!).

Eight, oh by the way, Streorno is actively seeking investors, so get in on the ground floor now, before they revolutionize the world. You can also license the technology if you want.

This is the classic formula of a technology scam. About every five years this very same scam is pulled. The scammers make a lot of money and some of them end up in jail.
 

Quite Irate

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The internet is a scary tool for conspiracy theorists. It allows them an audience of millions of mainstream but very impressionable younger people to grab hold of and confuse. Clouding the judgment of young people is one of the most harmful things you can possibly due for the future. I mean, look at all the kids who believe the 9/11 conspiracies? I've also seen several instances of 9/11 conspiracies and global warming denial lumped together. Sheer madness.
 

IntoxicatingToxin

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The internet is a scary tool for conspiracy theorists. It allows them an audience of millions of mainstream but very impressionable younger people to grab hold of and confuse. Clouding the judgment of young people is one of the most harmful things you can possibly due for the future. I mean, look at all the kids who believe the 9/11 conspiracies? I've also seen several instances of 9/11 conspiracies and global warming denial lumped together. Sheer madness.

Exactly... the last thing we need is a bunch of young folk thinking that HIV/AIDS isn't real. *sigh*
 

JustAsking

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The internet is a scary tool for conspiracy theorists. It allows them an audience of millions of mainstream but very impressionable younger people to grab hold of and confuse. Clouding the judgment of young people is one of the most harmful things you can possibly due for the future. I mean, look at all the kids who believe the 9/11 conspiracies? I've also seen several instances of 9/11 conspiracies and global warming denial lumped together. Sheer madness.

Exactly... the last thing we need is a bunch of young folk thinking that HIV/AIDS isn't real. *sigh*

The word for it is "criminal".
 

simcha

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I think that both Andro Man and Dongalong should go out and chase the HIV virus and catch it and prove to all of us that it doesn't cause AIDS by never getting sick. That would prove it to all of us I think. I think they should test their own theories and put their own lives where their mouths are.