Air France flight disappears over Atlantic 228 ppl

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I don't like flying in summer. That's when the crashes happen the most.

Ms. Couric isn't exactly accurate. Every part of the plane is shielded from lightning except the nosecone weather radar which can't work if it's shielded. Because of this risk, that radar system is isolated (or should be) from the rest of the electrical system which includes lightning arrestors. The average commercial liner gets struck three times a year so it's not a big deal.

What I'm considering right now is the possibility that this is related to the problem that Qantas QF72 had. QF72 was flying from Singapore to Perth and not once, but twice, experienced sudden drops in altitude due to a faulty air data inertial reference unit (ADIRU). That little bugger measures everything about the airplane's attitude and position and sends it off to the flight computer. The ADIRU in the QF72 was faulty, sending jibberish to the flight computer which tried to correct course and attitude based upon that faulty information. The main computer is supposed to see that the ADIRU is fucked and take it offline, relying on backups. Supposedly, this problem was fixed.

What has cropped-up however, is that the ADIRU is only polled of its readings every 1.5 seconds. Should the flight computer see the ADIRU is sending jibberish during a period of any less than 1.5 seconds, then it doesn't know the ADIRU is malfunctioning because the 1.5 second threshold hasn't been reached. That means that the flight computer may make erroneous corrections based on faulty data. The A330, again, flies by wire. The plane flies itself unless overridden and will make radical corrections to the flight path if it deems necessary. While that small window of 1.5 seconds may seem minimal, it may have contributed to the problem with the QF72 flight though this is only a theory on the part of some pilots. Airbus does not consider the ADIRU polling period to be an issue.

Now if all this started suddenly and the pilots were trying to respond to the sudden change in plane direction and attitude because of an ADIRU failure, and given the possible flimsiness of the surface controls while under manual backup control (as seen on AA587), and given the heavy turbulence the plane reported, I wonder if this wasn't a factor.

Talking to pilots, many expressed a concern about fire. When there's a short, as the plane reported, there are sparks and where there are sparks, there's potential for fire. The A330 does have smoke detectors in the passenger cabin, cargo hold, toilets, and cockpit, but nowhere else. Their worry is that a lightning strike could have precipitated a fire that went unnoticed because it was in the fuselage or some other area that goes unmonitored. Because of cabin pressurization, smoke on planes doesn't always act like it does in the normal world and a fire could progress to the point it damages components without the cockpit crew knowing.

Something else too. The global SATCOM system doesn't track commercial planes despite the fact that many are fitted with satellite phone systems. This system is essentially a flying GPS system and while you can't triangulate the position of a plane using SATCOM, the plane already tracks itself. It would take next to nothing in cost or programming to fit the satellite phone systems with a transponder that would keep the plane transmitting its exact position to the satellite system and then on to anywhere else. If this system had been enabled, we'd know where the plane was.
 

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Very knowledgeable and insightful information, Jason.

While all of us are deeply saddened by this tragedy, it's also important that all of us who fly, and have loved ones who do, know the exact cause of this catastrophe.

Our hearts go out to the victims and their families.
 

SpeedoGuy

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If the plane was heading into thunderstorms, and equatorial storms are the biggest there are, and the plane experienced catastrophic electrical failure, then I'm wondering if the weather radar was hit by lightning. That's the radar up-front in the cone and it's not shielded. If that was hit then the crew would be flying blind and unable to navigate around the super cells.

Nitpick:

Equatorial t-storms are the tallest (due to the height of the tropopause) they are but not the baddest by any means. Equatorial t-storms can get rough, to be sure, but to really get violent turbulence requires mid-latitude storms with vertical wind shears associated with jet streams (largely absent over the tropics) and frontal boundaries (again, largely absent over the tropics). Think Texas and Oklahoma storms, the most violent on earth.

From the professional pilots I've talked to, loss of weather radar at cruising altitude is more of an annoyance than a serious safety issue. Nose radomes do get hit by lightning now and again but major damage is rare.

Lightning strikes on aircraft are not unusual and they tend not be serious. Here's a great (and verified true) animated photo sequence of a strike:

Airplane lightning strike - animated gif - HongFire Anime Network Photo Gallery

Believe it or not, the worst (ie structural damage to airframes) turbulence tends not to come from thunderstorms, serious though that can be, but from mountain waves and Clear Air Turbulence not associated with convective buildups. There are notable examples of aircraft lost, or nearly so, due to the severity of wave or CAT. See story about CAT in the link below.

That Position Has Been Taken
 
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As I understand it, equatorial storms produce the most violent thunderstorms if not the most turbulent winds. Maybe I'm just uncertain about meteorological terms in this instance?

I do understand that flying without weather radar is not a big deal to pilots. The concern I'm reading is that the plane may have flown into a 50,000 ft. thunderstorm which could have contributed to the crash which the radar could have helped avert.

I'm also wondering why there was no contact from the cabin crew when there appears to be contact from passengers. It's hard to imagine a plane being tossed about violently as some passengers manage to text their loved ones. It's like the passengers knew something was wrong before the crew did.
 

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As I understand it, equatorial storms produce the most violent thunderstorms if not the most turbulent winds. Maybe I'm just uncertain about meteorological terms in this instance?

I do understand that flying without weather radar is not a big deal to pilots. The concern I'm reading is that the plane may have flown into a 50,000 ft. thunderstorm which could have contributed to the crash which the radar could have helped avert.

I'm also wondering why there was no contact from the cabin crew when there appears to be contact from passengers. It's hard to imagine a plane being tossed about violently as some passengers manage to text their loved ones. It's like the passengers knew something was wrong before the crew did.
I'm only making an assumption...but I imagine that it was a small window of opportunity to make contact and they may have been trying to deal with the conditions on the aircraft and/or not have been able to due to the equipment being disabled.
 

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As I understand it, equatorial storms produce the most violent thunderstorms if not the most turbulent winds. Maybe I'm just uncertain about meteorological terms in this instance?

I do understand that flying without weather radar is not a big deal to pilots. The concern I'm reading is that the plane may have flown into a 50,000 ft. thunderstorm which could have contributed to the crash which the radar could have helped avert.

I'm also wondering why there was no contact from the cabin crew when there appears to be contact from passengers. It's hard to imagine a plane being tossed about violently as some passengers manage to text their loved ones. It's like the passengers knew something was wrong before the crew did.

this whole thing is awfully bizarre; doesn't add up.
 

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this whole thing is awfully bizarre; doesn't add up.

Why does it not add up? As far as I know lightning strikes and turbulence can not bring down an aircraft, but an electrical issue coupled with loosing cabin pressure at 30,000 feet means that the plane most likely exploded into a million pieces and fell in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean with depths up to 14,000 feet of water. It is a tragedy! Why try to turn it into something else?
 
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B_starinvestor

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Why does it not add up? As far as I know lightning strikes and turbulence can not bring down an aircraft, but an electrical issue coupled with loosing cabin pressure at 30,000 feet means that the plane most likely exploded into a million pieces and fell in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean with depths up to 14,000 feet of water. It is a tragedy! Why try to turn it into something else?

Yes, I know it's a tragedy; I'm not trying to make it into something...but following the coverage - it doesn't seem as opened and shut as an electrical issue.

for example, if the cabin exploded, people wouldn't be sending text messages as they are free falling into the ocean.
 

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Yes, I know it's a tragedy; I'm not trying to make it into something...but following the coverage - it doesn't seem as opened and shut as an electrical issue.

for example, if the cabin exploded, people wouldn't be sending text messages as they are free falling into the ocean.

From my experience flying...which is quite extensive... whenever there is severe turbulence or electrical storms people start screaming and crying (and I'm one of them) In these instances people start using the telephones on aircraft and calling home. Since we now live in an age where people can send texts and e-mail from a flight I suspect that is the case. I can only assume that they were not sending these messages as they were falling from the sky!:rolleyes:
www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6406713.ece
 
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geocycle

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At the moment the news here (Bogotá) is reporting the wreckage was found in the territorial waters of Senegal ... maybe this is false, though, because no one else is reporting it.

I suspect that reports of text messages and emails might not be true (just as they were hoaxes with Helios 522).


As I understand it, equatorial storms produce the most violent thunderstorms if not the most turbulent winds. Maybe I'm just uncertain about meteorological terms in this instance?

I do understand that flying without weather radar is not a big deal to pilots. The concern I'm reading is that the plane may have flown into a 50,000 ft. thunderstorm which could have contributed to the crash which the radar could have helped avert.

I'm also wondering why there was no contact from the cabin crew when there appears to be contact from passengers. It's hard to imagine a plane being tossed about violently as some passengers manage to text their loved ones. It's like the passengers knew something was wrong before the crew did.
 

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Ms. Couric isn't exactly accurate. Every part of the plane is shielded from lightning except the nosecone weather radar which can't work if it's shielded. Because of this risk, that radar system is isolated (or should be) from the rest of the electrical system which includes lightning arrestors. The average commercial liner gets struck three times a year so it's not a big deal.

To be absolutely clear Jason it wasn't Miss Couric I was referencing. You mistook my post. It was an expert referred to during her nightly broadcast on CBS. He went into further detail but I won't pretend to suggest I know the extent of his expertise.

However here's what was said by Mr. Rupke:

"Initial speculation hinted the plane may have been struck by lightning, but doubts linger over whether lightning strikes can in fact bring down a modern jet. They are, after all, built to withstand regular lightning strikes, which are thought to occur at least once a year to every single commercial plane in operation in the U.S. In a 2006 article for Scientific American, Edward J. Rupke, a senior engineer at Lightning Technologies, Inc., wrote that the U.S. hasn’t suffered a crash caused by lightning since 1967 thanks to the sophisticated systems meant to diffuse a lightning bolt that are built into every aircraft. “Although passengers and crew may see a flash and hear a loud noise if lightning strikes their plane,” Rupke wrote, “nothing serious should happen because of the careful lightning protection engineered into the aircraft and its sensitive components.” Furthermore, at least two other jets are believed to have travelled through the same area at around the same time without any problems."

I was telling you what I had only recently heard. When I posted that post it was the most current info we had to date.

Miss Couric was not presenting herself as any sort of expert on the tragedy.
 
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Thanks for the clarification Stonzo. :smile:

I really want to know what happened here and don't know why. I don't get the feeling that something isn't right as I did with TWA 800. The good news is that four minutes of transmissions were received so perhaps more detail can be gleaned from the plane's phone-home. I want the black boxes!

I haven't seen anything about the reports of debris landing in Africa.

It also seems France is leaning to an accident, assigning the case to an accident unit rather than a terrorist unit. This despite the Dutchman calling Miss Cleo below:

A Dutch man has told a news outlet in the Netherlands that he canceled a trip to Brazil after a friend warned him of danger.


Stefan van Oss, who comes from the small town of Oss, which is 64 miles from Amsterdam, said he'd booked a vacation to Brazil three weeks ago. He was scheduled to return home via Paris on the flight that had gone down, he said.


Oss' friend told him that "something bad would happen and he would not return if he got on the plane. So he reconsidered his trip and decided not to go," Eelens said. -SeattlePI
 

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Yes, I know it's a tragedy; I'm not trying to make it into something...but following the coverage - it doesn't seem as opened and shut as an electrical issue.

for example, if the cabin exploded, people wouldn't be sending text messages as they are free falling into the ocean.


Fire inside the fuselage. You heard it hear first. SwissAir sitch all over again.
 

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I really want to know what happened here and don't know why. I don't get the feeling that something isn't right as I did with TWA 800.

TWA 800 is very emotional for me...i was sitting on the veranda of my grandparents home in the Hamptons, it is right on top of the dune on the beach, i was having a cigarette and drinking a beer jusr relaxing on such a nice night, watching the ocean and the stars, that was my favorite spot in the whole world from the time i was 5 years old...and then, way off in the distance SW over the ocean, i saw a huge flash/fireball high in the sky and a "boom" (which i thought may have been the concorde breaking the sound barrier as it gets out over the ocean from JFK)

then i watched what literally looked like a flaming comet, following the initial flash, move along horizontally for about 15 seconds or so, then suddenly started to move downward very sharply at a 70-90 degree angle, and then about 30 seconds later as i was watching this "comet" fall, another big flash came from it, then literally it just kept falling for another 45 seconds or so...and then the light dissipated and semed to scatter as it met the ocean...it was a very clear night, and very bright in that area with all the stars out...and it was just very surreal, and i did not realize what i was witnessing,

i thought at first it was really bizarre, then went and got my pair of really good binoculars, and could see lights/little fires on the surface, scattered, but could not make them out but they were flickering for quite a while...

a little later i had gone inside and was watching when the news started coming in...it was so strange...i was literally watching this happen

it had hit the water *LITERALLY* 7 miles out in the ocean directly southwest of where i was sitting.

i was watching the news and going out looking with binoculars the whole night, i got up very early the next morning about 6:30, and took my father's boat out of the Shinecock Bay through the inlet and into the ocean, to see if i could help look for stuff...there were so many boats out there, alot of civilians, fishermen etc. all trying to help the coast guard...i found several pieces of smaller wreckage, it was incredibly rattling and sad...a seat cushion (burned), really threw me, as did part of an overhead luggage compartment, and several other disturbing things ( i think if i had found a personal possesion, i would have broken down...the seat cushion was bad enough)...after about an hour out there, i turned over what i had found to the coast guard out there...i simply could not stay out there, emotionally anylonger...obviously there were a lot of larger pieces floating there, that were too big for me to collect, but seing those things all floating there, was just surreal...i got back to my house at about 10:30 AM...around noon, i took my dog down to the beach to take her for a long walk and so she could swim in the ocean, which she loves (Retriever)...we were walking along and i was keeping my eye out fo any wreckage, just in case any had washed up...on my way back my dog was ahead of me by about 50 feet, and i saw her sniffing at something, that definitely did not look nice from what i could see...So yelled at her "NO", since, she always would find stuf on the beach (like a dead horseshoe crab) and since dead sea turtles (heads bitten off by sharks) and the occasional basking shark and or small whale wash up, i figured it was something dead that i did not want her to eat... when i got up close i was baffled by what i saw and i just got chills, it was not particularly large, perhaps 3 feet by a 1 foot wide...and i began to get really upset as i realized what it was...i tried to convince myself that it wasn't what i thought, and dragged my dog away from it, and went up to my house...i had intended to call the police anyway as i had witnessed the event and they had said to call if you had info etc...so i called the police and said i had witnessed the crash, and also i had found something, which i was very concerned that it may have been part of a body, but i simply was not sure, as i could not really define it...i gave my address and phone number, and within 20 minutes, an FBI Car, came to the house, with an agent...I briefed him as we walked, to the top of the veranda, and told him i'd seen the incident from right here, which he said was, based on what he was hearing and seeing so far, was one of the more optimal sites that it was viewed from since it was right on the beach on dune road (which is a barrier island), as opposed to people who had seen it from across the bay...we walked down to the beach and as we started to approach, i said "i wasn't sure if maybe it was part of a sea creature or what, but i feared the worst, but just was not sure"...and as we got up to it, he looked at it grimly, and he immediately knew, and even though it was barely recognizable as anything, it was clearly human flesh, as he said, and while gruesome, he showed me a couple of parts of it (without touching it obviously, but just pointing) that he said you could see were muscle tone of the upper back etc...(it turned out to have been the flesh from the right side of the back of a woman, torn from the back of the spine and ribcage...it was white/almost yellowish, because there was no blood left in it, apprently (or something...i was a bit too shocked to pay complete attention) any way, right then, he got on his phone and called his partner or superior or whatever, and another guy came, and had an evidence collection bag, and gloves etc...and collected it, then i spoke with both of them and they interveiwed me right on the veranda so i could show them everything i saw...and we went through this for about a half hour i guess...it was very sobering, and they called me back just to verify things later, and fortunatley the one agent who i had spoken to first was very knowledgable and helpful, and i spoke to him one more time later, and then later on a few months later i spoke with someone from NTSb

It was a very weird experience to be part of that (then again, i was down on Wall Street on 9/11 and that was pretty fucking surreal as well)
 
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TWA 800 had me saying immediately, "This wasn't supposed to happen. It's wrong," as if I knew that Father Time had fucked-up. It does the same to others too. I know other people to whom you mention TWA 800 and it doesn't sit right with them as well. I don't mean to imply it was taken down by a terrorist or external accident either, just that something tells me those people weren't supposed to die then. The plane wasn't supposed to go down.

I dunno. It still haunts me.

Thanks for the story Flashy. I'm sorry you experienced that.
 
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Flashy

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TWA 800 had me saying immediately, "This wasn't supposed to happen. It's wrong," as if I knew that Father Time had fucked-up. It does the same to others too. I know other people to whom you mention TWA 800 and it doesn't sit right with them as well. I don't mean to imply it was taken down by a terrorist or external accident either, just that something tells me those people weren't supposed to die then. The plane wasn't supposed to go down.

I dunno. It still haunts me.

I don't know....i guess since i was so close to it, it has never really felt weird to me, just profoundly sad and surreal...i had never experienced anything like that...all the scenes on TV of huge pieces of wings floating there, and debris bobbing up and down...it was so eerie...mostly because the next day was so beautiful, weather wise...it was clear, and the ocean was very calm and flat...it was almost gentle...and i as i was navigating the boat through this debris field, it was so strange...looking at all these huge pieces floating in the water so quietly, yet without any suggestion of the disaster or violent way they wound up there, (if that makes sense...sort of the diametric opposition of the whole scene) it was literally like floating around a cemetery almost...it felt like in Apocalypse Now, in the last part of the river before they get to Kurtz...when the weird music is playing, and they are going through the narrow corridor, and they are seeing the weird lights and altars...

sort of hard to describe, but it felt a bit like that...like you were in some weird, sad movie.
 

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Thanks for the story Flashy. I'm sorry you experienced that.

thanks for that...i kind of think of it "positively" in a sad way...i like to think that i went out to look for people's loved ones, and do anything to help, so i think i know how first responders and such feel in times like that, it is tough to experience, but the people who you help, appreciate it greatly, even if there is only so much you can do...
 
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thanks for that...i kind of think of it "positively" in a sad way...i like to think that i went out to look for people's loved ones, and do anything to help, so i think i know how first responders and such feel in times like that, it is tough to experience, but the people who you help, appreciate it greatly, even if there is only so much you can do...

I did. I was up watching the whole thing unfold on TV and remember all the boats out there. I thought to myself how good it was that so many responded before the debris field sank or scattered. I had even hoped that maybe someone would have survived (people have survived such things albeit very rarely).
 

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I did. I was up watching the whole thing unfold on TV and remember all the boats out there. I thought to myself how good it was that so many responded before the debris field sank or scattered. I had even hoped that maybe someone would have survived (people have survived such things albeit very rarely).

yeah, me too....i knew it wasn't probable...but i was just hoping somehow, i would find someone clinging to a piece of wreckage or something...anything positive to be brought out of it...one little bit of hope...sadly it was not to be.
 

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OK, now it's getting weird.


Now how did mere cell phones, with a limited range of about 25 miles, manage to communicate with land if the plane was out of range of radio? This plane isn't lost in the middle of the Atlantic, it's relatively close to land someplace. The question is, where were the SMS messages received?


And if the passengers were aware of a problem, why no contact from the crew via the SATCOM that managed to contact Paris on its own?

At the moment the news here (Bogotá) is reporting the wreckage was found in the territorial waters of Senegal ... maybe this is false, though, because no one else is reporting it.

I suspect that reports of text messages and emails might not be true (just as they were hoaxes with Helios 522).

Before any more tinfoil hats come out, perhaps it's because Air France have offered limited GSM facilities onboard much of their fleet for some time now.:rolleyes:

That said, if the messages are any indication, it seems it wasn't a sudden catastrophic failure (per your earlier post) and some systems remained functional for some time after whatever precipitated the crash.

It's a tragedy, but since there's no evidence (yet) of foul play, the conspiratorial speculation serves little purpose. When (if) the FDRs are recovered a cause may be determined. It may sound trite, but statistics aside, such things do happen.